(V): I love when a plan comes together
I had better brush up on my Bahasa Indonesia

Artful Dodger: Federal govt can't do anything right/efficiently.. so yeah, let's give them MORE to do for us!

Craziness.

So.. the depression we are in might give Obama worse unemployment figures than Ronald Raygun got!!

.. That one was started by the stock exchange crash!!

According to a police investigation, Williams opened fire on California Highway Patrol officers who had stopped him on an Oakland freeway for driving erratically. For 12 frantic minutes, Williams traded shots with the police, employing three firearms and a small arsenal of ammunition, including armor-piercing rounds fired from a .308-caliber rifle.


"I would have never started watching Fox News if it wasn't for the fact that Beck was on there. And it was the things that he did, it was the things he exposed that blew my mind." - Byron Williams

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoTpLr-mBLc&feature=player_embedded#!

Artful Dodger: oh come on.. you know its always "someone elses fault"

Glen Beck sounds like the Nazi propaganda machine of the 1930's.... They made films depicting themselves as peaceful people standing up against the Jews/Communists... And it was the Jews/Communists who were violent thugs attacking and killing real Germans just because the real Germans stood up and disagreed with what the Jews/Communists were saying.

I saw on the Glen Beck show when he's in teacher mode the news rolling at the bottom about how the Palestinians are rejecting peace talks due to disagreements over the West Bank and the Israelis carrying on building on land which is not theirs. Yet it's all the Palestinians fault!!

(V): If you had the track record of the Palestinians, I would hold back on granting you sainthood, unlike most of the world press so gleefully have.Both sides have much to do before real peace can ever be achieved.Maybe tossing bombs in school buses and night clubs is a noble deed to some, but I'm not quite ready to grant them the martyrdom so many do.

The Col: I agree.. the Palestinians have not done much to give them the chance of a Noble peace prize.. but neither have the Israeli's in this matter. one of the big stumbling blocks is building on the West Bank... which by international law is illegal.

The Fox banter at the bottom says it's because the Palestinians do not recognise Israel.. yet they have since 1993.

... Maybe those on the Israeli side should just admit many right wingers on their side do not want to stop the building... why does it seem right wingers get in the way of progress everywhere!!!

Artful Dodger:

> that he experienced an ‘‘awakening” when he watched former Vice President Al Gore’s environmental documentary ‘‘An Inconvenient Truth.”

That documentary must be just like "The Catcher in the Rye". Environmentalists are going postal because of it.

Last night a meteorite landed somewhere in Mongolia.

Some Mongolian shepherd said:

"It was liberals who ..."

Obama and his liberals are to blame for EVERYTHING that has gone wrong EVERYWHERE.

(V): Can you provide me the actual statement?

At least Fox News doesn't provide a free propoganda pulpit for the terrorist wing of the Palestinians, as CNN and MSNBC seem very happy to do.........Israel has handled the situation badly in many respects, no argument on that count, but they also have enough past history that warrents very careful movement on the issues before them.

Übergeek 바둑이: Hang on...so it's not Clinton's fault anymore?

lizrising: no it's still ALL Bush's fault

lizrising: Clinton was too busy with his box of cigars.

Vikings: Ohhh, thanks for clearing that up. In a world where no one in any part of the spectrum wants to take blame for any of their mistakes, it's hard to remember who did what.

Artful Dodger: I couldn't agree more

The Col: From what I've found....

"The Palestinians formally recognised Israel on the eve of the 1993 Oslo Accords, but have rejected demands to recognise its Jewish character because it would effectively renounce the right of return for refugees from the 1948 Arab-Israeli war."
http://www.citizen.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=132515&catid=29:world-news&Itemid=53

"A day earlier, Netanyahu set out recognition of Israel as a Jewish state as his price for a renewal of a ban on construction in the occupied West Bank, seen as key to rescuing direct talks relaunched last month.

That demand was rejected out of hand by the Palestinians, who said it had "nothing to do with the peace process," and was also widely criticised by Israeli politicians and commentators as a political ploy to sabotage the talks."

(V): It's political posturing, but recognising Israel without its Jewish identity, is like recognising The Holy See without acknowledging its Catholic culture.Israel was created to be a Jewish state,(rightly or wrongly) to delete that from the recognition, is to not fully recoginise.The Palestinians have done their share of walking away, or sabotaging agreements, it's a shame former Egyptian President Anwar El Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin are not still around to lend their wisdom to the process.

Sadly, the UN Security Council has always played a one-sided game that favours Israel over the Palestinian people. From its creation after WW II to the present, Israel has enjoyed the favour of most superpowers. Things in Israel will never improve as long as external powers intercede to defend Israel every time Israel does something that contravenes UN resolutions and tries to extend its official territorial boundaries.

If Israel is to be recognized as a Jewish state, then other religious states would deserve the same priviledge. Mullahs in Iraq and Afghanistan want those countries to be recognized as Islamic states. The Taliban (however despicable its social policies might be) would have a point in saying that its existence as a state structure is justified on religious grounds.

Thus western powers play an inconsistent game that favous Israel. They pretend to deplore the conditions under which Palestinians live, but at the same time they give Israel billions of dollars in economic and military aid. They carry out trade and commerce with Israel, but do little to help the Palestinian economy. It comes as no surprise then that Israel has the resources to build one of the largest armies in the World, equipped with war planes, tanks, battle ships and even nuclear weapons; while Palestinians have to fight back with rocks and home-made bombs.

It is a one-sided game with the UN pretending to care but doing nothing to change anything. The Security council is blind and refuses to pass any resolutions or trade embargoes that would force both Israel and Palestine to make a lasting peace and recognize each other's right to exist.

If western powers wanted peace in the Middle East, they would start by using economic weapons in the same way that they have used them with Iran and North Korea. They would halt all military aid and declare a trade embargo in armaments and military technologies. They would impose banking restrictions and they would stop trading in anything that could be used as a weapon or to give either side an advantage in a war. As it is, that situation already exists with the Palestinians, but not with the Israelis. Any move to curtail trade and impose embargoes would affect mostly Israel because Palestinians are already at a huge disadvantage. The only way to move forward is to end the one-sided game, and nobody wants that. Not our western powers and least of all Israel.

The Col: The original formation of 'Palestine' was supposed to have given both Jewish and Arab people an equal right to live in what we call Israel today. While I can accept the Israelis saying "we live here" and the right to live there being 'written in stone', I cannot accept the declaration of Israel being purely a Jewish state. It's not the same as The Holy See, that is a place in Rome which is in Italy.

From my reading of history and from recent progs.. Israel is still a place of where those of many religions live. Especially in Jerusalem, where people of non Jewish persuasion have had their rights to live in their homes abused to the extent where a person of Jewish faith can just walk all over them and take the families home from them with nobody stopping it from happening.

Perspectively wise... we have seen before what happens when a country declares that only certain people can live within it's boundaries many a time. The results ain't good.

Übergeek 바둑이: Historically,Israel has had to fight wars against(instigated most often by) multiple countries all at once, vastly outnumbered.I'm pretty sure that is the root of the military aid they recieve.If they did not have top notch military equipment Israel would not exist today.Personally I'm torn on the preservation of a Jewish State issue, while I am atheist,I have strong cultural ties to Judaism, and know that atheist or not, if Jews ever became another target,I would not be spared due to my atheism, the name on my birth certificate would be enough to put me in harms way.I think you need to understand the Jewish mentality, regardless of where Jews live in the world,Israel is considered their only safe haven if the unthinkable ever happened again.You are dealing with a very fragile insecurity in regards to the Jewish relationship to Israel, and that is something that cannot be seperated from the discussion.I do not condone much of Israeli policy in relation to the Palestinians, but to not acknowledge even once in your post the many years of terrorism towards Israel by the PLO, and the environment of distrust that has created towards peace displays an incomplete side of the story, and resolution.

(V): The Holy See is considered an independant state by some,wiki it

The Col: It's interesting to read your views on Israel and Palestine. I attend a Reconstructionist synagogue that is generally on the side of the Palestinians. I have very mixed feelings about the whole thing because there are so many layers to everything.

lizrising: It is very complicated,and the emotion on both sides makes it even more so.Strategically speaking though, if peace ever does come between both sides it will really mess with the haters in the middle east, as I heard a Jordanian diplomat explain a few weeks ago.

The Col:

> not acknowledge even once in your post the many years of terrorism towards Israel by the PLO

I am well aware of the PLO, suicide bombings, home-made rockets, etc.

What I am getting at is the completely lopsided approach that western powers take in the whole issue.

As an example, today in the radio (CBC) they were talking about how the Canadian government instigated Lockheed-Martin to provide Israel with 30 state of the art F15 fighters. The F15 is the most sophisticated fighter jet in history. Each fighter comes at a price of about US $150 million and an estimated $300 million in maintenance costs over the lifetime of the plane. These fighter jets are expected to be delivered to Israel within the next 2 years.

Contrast this with the fact that since March of 2006 the Canadian government suspended all aid to Palestinians, not that they were giving much to begin with.

Such a one-sided approach only aggravates the situation. Western governments want Palestinians to abandon all territorial claims and to be content with whatever scraps of desert Israel feels Palestinians deserve. Israel has undergone a population explosion since the end of the Cold War. Jews have emigrated from Russia and other countries by the thousands and that means that to house them it is necessary to displace Palestinians. Western countries have given Israel carte blanche to do whatever they want and rather than pressuring Israel to change its stance, they are giving Israel more weapons to counteract the rising threat from Iran.

The current approach is obviously not working. Any aid given to israel should be matched as aid given to Palestinians. As long as there is injustice there, things will not get better and the current approach to foreign aid is failing.

Übergeek 바둑이:yet totally dismissive of its impact on the entire situation, nor the distrust many countries have of the Palestinians recieving financial aid, and then funneling it to their close buddies Hezbollah and Hamas.You can't erase decades of terrorism my friend. regardless of how well it frames the argument.Israel is far from perfect, that I have acknowledged, but you can not give a full account of the present situation without presenting both sides, and some history.

Übergeek 바둑이: What I do find disgusting, is how the Palestinian people, the regular guy on the street, who just wants the love of his family, and a roof over his head, has been used as a pawn by so many Arab countries(and terrorist groups) who couldn't give a damn if they lived or died, but sure like using them.Are you aware of how looked down upon the Palestinians are by their Arab brothers? or a good number of them.Palestinians and Israelis actually don't get along badly in Israel generally speaking, and many Palestinians have attained pretty high standing within Israeli society........but that's not the juicy stuff is it

The Col:

> nor the distrust many countries have of the Palestinians

I suppose Israel is so trustworthy that they deserve billions of dollars in war planes. Yet Palestinians are so untrustworthy that they don't deserve even a boat loaded with medicines and food.


> You can't erase decades of terrorism my friend.

Neither can we erase decades of oppression, imprisonment, bulldozing people's homes, expelling people from their own country, etc.

The point is made by you. Our governments trust and support Israel implicitly. Yet they deplore Palestinians and view them with distrust. So we use that distrust to justify unfair foreign policies and to justify giving Israel aid while Palestinians live in misery.

We keep making excuses for Israel. "It is the threat from Hamas and Hezbollah and Al Qaida. It is Iran and the moslems bent on destroying Israel." Now that we have made an excuse, let's justify letting Israel have WMDs, war planes, tanks, etc. After all, a Palestinian with a bomb strapped to his chest is much more deadly than 30 F15s!

In the end, our governments are hypocrites. Why can't they just say the simple truth. "We support Israel because of its strategic military position in the Middle East."

Übergeek 바둑이: In many regards we are known by the company we keep.The Palestinians hitched their boat to terrorists, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

The Col: The Holy See my have it's own laws and is recognised as a 'state'.. but it (as I said) only occupies a place that is a part of Rome... making it in my eyes just a big glorified church with very large church grounds.

Übergeek 바둑이: No they don't.. not all. The UK government certainly doesn't, and many European governments have spoken out against the ghetto's that are the Palestinians homelands. Looking back at the history of UN resolutions against Israel.. the only stumbling block in decades gone that would have created a more probable atmosphere for peace by being able to put pressure on Israel to stop it's side of the crap has been the USA.

Whether they were decisions made purely by USA policy makers or with coercion/bribery from those within Israel is hard to work out.

Statement by High Representative Catherine Ashton on Israel-Palestinian proximity peace talks

"I am deeply concerned by recent settlement-related activity in East Jerusalem and the recent unrest in Silwan. I recall that the European Union has never recognised the annexation of East Jerusalem. Settlements and the demolition of homes are illegal under international law, constitute an obstacle to peace and threaten to make a two-state solution impossible. If there is to be genuine peace, a way must be found through negotiations to resolve the status of Jerusalem as the future capital of two states. I would like to call on Israel to refrain from measures which may undermine the ongoing proximity talks. These talks enjoy our full support and the parties need to engage seriously in these negotiations.

I also want to strongly condemn the attack on UNRWA Summer Games recreation facility in Gaza. UNRWA’s Summer Games are an excellent initiative to promote the wellbeing of Gaza’s children and they will continue to count with our strong support."

Brussels, 30 June 2010
A 117/10

(V):

> No they don't.. not all. The UK government certainly doesn't, and many European governments have spoken out against the ghetto's that are the Palestinians homelands.

I think the real problem is not whether our governments speak out or not against what Israel or the Palestinians do. Speaking out againts it accomplishes little if the condemnation is not backed up by real action.

The last time Israel invaded Lebanon 1,191 Lebanese civilians were killed, as opposed to 44 Israeli civilians. Israel acted with extreme brutality over the 1 month that the hostilities lasted. Most countries spoke out against Israel, but in reality did little to stop Israel from killing all those civilians. Canada, the UK and the US supported Israel fully and the US provided Israel with precision guided missiles during the cinflict. Most western nations gave full support to Israel and in the end it was pressure from Russia which forced the US Security Council to pass a resolution to force Israel to stop hostilities.

After hostilies ceased, nobody helped the Lebanese rebuild their destroyed towns except for Iran. Today the president of Iran is there and he is being welcomed as a hero.

If western countries had taken an impartial stance from the start, hostilies would have ended sooner and instead of further pushing the local population towards extremism, they would have shown the Lebanese and Palestinian people that the west is committed to lasting peace in the area. Instead people are lining the streets and welcoming the Iranian president because he was the only one to show any support for the local civilians affected in the conflict.

The UN imposed cease fire had little effect on Israel. The only way these people are going to stop fighting and create a lasting peace will be when all external countries act impartially and fairly. Unfortunately our western governments talk and condemn, but they don't back their talk with sanctions or with a halt of military aid.

Übergeek 바둑이: Again, you fail to state the provocation that began the military action, not to mention the human shields that were used in an effort to up casulties and thusly feed the propoganda value.Firing rockets from within homes and villages will provoke retaliation to the source, a very cowerdly form of warfare................do you have any idea how many rockets were fired towards Israel before any action was taken? how long do you think the USA would put up with rockets being fired at them before taking action? Israel has shown amazing restraint in that respect.

Nobody has their hands clean in the issue of a Palestinian solution.I know a solution will one day arrive, and be agreed upon, but if you insist on painting a one sided picture, there is more than enough paint left to complete the other side.The peace process will begin when both sides begin to look to the future, and plant the seeds for trust and respect.

Artful Dodger: I state what I believe, others can sort out what the classification is, I couldn't care less

but it will be streamed here live

http://www.mynews4.com/story.php?id=29617&n=122

Tuesday: I think it was intended to be like when sane countries get up and leave the UN when Ahmadinejad starts spreading his garbage

Artful Dodger: I didn't think Whooppeeee would be such a big baby (don't know the other baby) but I guess it is OK...The old saying "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen" I guess neither of these women are cooks/chefs, as they couldnt stand the heat.....but babies they definately are.

The Col: Simple solution would be to move the borders a bit and let the Palestinians have one land instead of two bits.. I'm not talking about just Israel moving borders, but the neighbouring Arab states as well.

As for the rockets.. no that was not nice.. the human shields.. pointless.

But so were the use of cluster bombs.

Übergeek 바둑이: But they do talk (at least with the EU) with a lot of monetary aid given to the Palestinian people.

Artful Dodger: And the Catholic church is without sin regarding bashing different folks? I think Jesus would have restated his words on "turn the other cheek".

"all views"