20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. 24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.

27 “I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way. 29 But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land.

Exodus 32
5 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

33 The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

Tuesday: And what if the murderer is due to the result of years of abuse with no help? What if the terrors done to them is a daily nightmare in their brain? How does God judged them?

"Watching the news makes me want it to end....abuse of animals and kids etc."

Yet it is all part of the plan... even the bits we hate.

Tuesday: It says in the OT that God creates the good and the bad/evil ... the exact last word varies depending on the translation.

Artful Dodger: Your statement "the Arab world stands near the bottom of every measure of human development. " is offensive and shows your bias

Artful Dodger: There is no bigger waste of time then discussion with bigots and racists with your type

Artful Dodger: Just to expose you for what you really are... which is obvious to all

using the same way as the "emperors new cloths fable"

Tuesday: Everyone is taught in the USA in how to deal with all their bio chemical responses? Fight/Flight, Jealousy, Greed, Herd reflex, etc? How to understand their conscious, subconscious and unconscious and keep it all in mind?

He created us in his own image... what that is people try to define. God is supposed to have killed.. then how does that make killing evil, unless you are going to call God evil.

Artful Dodger: The west taught them to be murders. They are our own demons come back to haunt us. We gave them the training, the arms necessary to murder Russians. We created a loose canon.

From the Washington post.

Plus torture is unreliable.
Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm

"In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop.""

The article then goes to say....

Worse, you'll have the other side effects of torture. It "endangers our soldiers on the battlefield by encouraging reciprocity." It does "damage to our country's image" and undermines our credibility in Iraq. That, in the long run, outweighs any theoretical benefit. Herrington's confidential Pentagon report, which he won't discuss but which was leaked to The Post a month ago, goes farther. In that document, he warned that members of an elite military and CIA task force were abusing detainees in Iraq, that their activities could be "making gratuitous enemies" and that prisoner abuse "is counterproductive to the Coalition's efforts to win the cooperation of the Iraqi citizenry." Far from rescuing Americans, in other words, the use of "special methods" might help explain why the war is going so badly.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html

Artful Dodger: Mein Kampf is a book. Written by Adolf Hitler.

Some old books say the world is flat.. another fact!!

I remember my chemistry books saying electrons were such predictable items in terms of their motion. Yet another fact in a book. So it must be true.

.. Yet understanding has improved, so it is not.

1. [Hermes.] Concerning Soul and Body, son, we now must speak; in what way Soul is deathless, and whence comes the activity 1 in composing and dissolving Body.

For there’s no death for aught of things [that are]; the thought [this] word conveys, is either void of fact, or [simply] by the knocking off a syllable what is called “death,” doth stand for “deathless.” 2

p. 125

For death is of destruction, and nothing in the Cosmos is destroyed. For if Cosmos is second God, a life 1 that cannot die, it cannot be that any part of this immortal life should die. All things in Cosmos are parts of Cosmos, and most of all is man, the rational animal.

2. For truly first of all, eternal and transcending birth, is God the universals’ Maker. Second is he “after His image,” Cosmos, brought into being by Him, sustained and fed by Him, made deathless, as by his own Sire, living for aye, as ever free from death.

Now that which ever-liveth, differs from the Eternal; for He 2 hath not been brought to being by another, and even if He have been brought to being, He hath not been brought into being by Himself, but ever is brought into being.

For the Eternal, in that It is eternal, is the all. The Father is Himself eternal of Himself, but Cosmos hath become eternal and immortal by the Father.



........... Must be true.. It's in a book!!

Tuesday: I have always believed that being created in his image meant we are all Gods. All one. And I believed that years before I read the children of the law of one.

Mousetrap: religious cranks have weird ideas I have found.....

Bernice: It depends. I supposed some people thought Jesus was weird too back in his day.
My motto is when in Rome.

Mousetrap: well that IS the safe way isn't it LOL

Artful Dodger:

> You say its torture, I say it's not. I want my government to have in its toolbox the right, under presidential order, to use waterboarding.

If somebody waterboarded your children, would it be torture or a mere firendly questioning? I will belive that waterboarding is not torture on the day that Dick Cheney allows himself to be waterboarded publicly on national TV.

You threaten somebody with death, you do it over and over until they confess. You could do it pointing a gun to their head, or holding a knife to their throat, or pretending to drown them. It is PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE.

But then, a good Christian like you defends it.

All you say to me is:

"The STATE has the right and the responsibility to protect its citizens. The Bible says that the State doens't yield the sword for nothing. Meaning that it has the power and responsibility for social order etc."

Can you show me where it says that? Or is it (like much of what passes as the Bible) a misinterpretation of a passage out of context?

You are a Christian. Are nuclear weapons right or wrong? If you say they are an acceptable deterrent, can you explain to me HOW that conforms with your Christian ethic. You say Chirst is all about loving one's neighbor. Well, are 100 megatons more love than 20 megatons?

As for guns, you say it is a constitutional right and many good Christians own guns. Following the example of Jesus, those people own lethal weapons and use them "responsibly". I wonder if Jesus carried a sword and used it "responsibly".

you said that Islam is a religion of violence and that it has perpetrated violence throught its history. If that is the case, and considering your poor excuses for the rotten things Christians have done, Christianity reduces itself to a religion that preaches love, but in reality exercises hypocrisy.

Tuesday: Yet such as jealousy is just a manifestation of our human bio chemical processes. God, unless you count the universe is not of physical form, just manifest in physical form through the universe.

Some of the way we attribute certain emotions to God is based on the old Gods of Rome and Greece. As a means to show we have them and the control they exert on us.

Mousetrap: It says as such in the Bible.. division is legion as it allows people to start justifying treating others with evilness.

"I read the children of the law of one."

Good read then?

Artful Dodger: You shall not murder... No.6 on the list of the BIG top 10

So you die, go to heaven and say to God "I killed a bastard" ...

N' St Peter says...

Christian terrorism comprises terrorist acts by groups or individuals who claim Christian motivations or goals for their actions. As with other forms of religious terrorism, Christian terrorists have relied on idiosyncratic or literalistic interpretations of the tenets of faith—in this case, the Bible. Such groups have used Old Testament and New Testament scriptures to justify violence or to seek to bring about the "end times" described in the New Testament, while others have hoped to bring about a Christian theocracy.

The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT), a rebel group operating in Tripura, North-East India, has been described as engaging in terrorist violence motivated by their Christian beliefs. [8] It is classified by the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism as one of the ten most active terrorist groups in the world, and has been accused of forcefully converting people to Christianity.[9][10] The insurgency in Nagaland was led by the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN) and continues today with its faction NSCN–Isaac Muivah, which explicitly calls for a "Nagalim for Christ".[11] The state government reports that the Baptist Church of Tripura supplies arms and gives financial support to the NLFT.[9][10][12] In April 2000, the secretary of the Noapara Baptist Church in Tripura, Nagmanlal Halam, was arrested with a large quantity of explosives. He confessed to illegally buying and supplying explosives to the NLFT for two years.[13] This church is reported to have encouraged the NLFT to murder Hindus, particularly infants.[12] The NLFT has threatened to kill Hindus celebrating the annual five-day religious festival of Durga Puja and other religious celebrations.[14]

Hutaree was a Christian militia group based in Adrian, Michigan. In 2010, after an FBI agent infiltrated the group, nine of its members were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy to use of improvised explosive devices, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence.

The Lord's Resistance Army, a cult guerrilla army engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government, has been accused of using child soldiers and committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, porters, and sex slaves.[34] A quasi-religious movement that mixes some aspects of Christian and Islamic beliefs with its own brand of spiritualism,[35] it is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the "Holy Spirit" which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.[page needed][36][36][37][38] LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle

(V): Am more than half way through it. My neighbour from down below(I am in upstairs flat he is underneath, very nice young man, lives on his own, name is Jason) told me about it and uploaded it to my laptop. I was surprised at how much my interpretation of "God" was the same before I had even read the book.
Boring in places though, as it tends to repeat.

Tuesday: It means an acceptance of all religions. "Live and let live" In other words does it really matter if they are christian or atheist as long as they respect others and are caring to other human beings?
A very good thing that the children of the law of one believe. Imagine someone you know, and imagine a world filled with that same person. Would it be a caring world or a bad world? Would they harm others just because they are differnt or would they live and let live if that person is doing nothing to harm another human being regardless of their religious belief, sexual orientation, colour etc etc.

(V): I will have to think about that one. But can you explain it another way please for as you know English to others may be different for me.

Tuesday:

The point I am trying to make is that some Christians (not all) want to portray Islam as evil. Art keeps on going about how bad Islam is, how violent it is, etc. However, he is incapable of admitting that Christianity has been just as rotten through its history. Before pointing the finger at Islam, Art should take a hard look at Christianity and all the "compromises" and "excuses". He defends waterboarding, gun posession, war for building empires and extracting commodities, etc. He can't explain to us how all those right wing beliefs of his reconcile with Christ's true teachings. It is easier to hide behind "democracy, "constitution", or "Islam is bad", than to admit that much of what he believes is as unChristian as beliefs come.

Mousetrap: It's a case of "us and them" when you believe "us and them" it makes it easy to justify hurting "them". Once you start believing "them" then it becomes easier to make more divisions. Hence "legion", or as otherwise stated.. separatism.

Oneness accepts and knows, all is God.. even though you may not understand it all, which is part of acceptance.

(V): I understand that thank you

5. [Thereon] out of the Light . . . 1 a Holy Word (Logos) 2 descended on that Nature. And upwards to the height from the Moist Nature leaped forth pure Fire; light was it, swift and active too. The Air, too, being light, followed after the Fire; from out the Earth-and-Water rising up to Fire so that it seemed to hang therefrom. But Earth-and-Water stayed so mingled each with other, that Earth from Water no one could discern. 3 Yet were they moved to hear by reason of the Spirit-Word (Logos) pervading them.

6. Then saith to me Man-Shepherd: Didst understand this Vision what it means?

Nay; that shall I know, I said. That Light, He said, am I, thy God, Mind, prior to Moist Nature which appeared from Darkness; the Light-Word (Logos) [that appeared] from Mind is Son of God.

p. 6

What then?—say I. Know that what sees in thee 1 and hears is the Lord’s Word (Logos); but Mind is Father-God. Not separate are they the one from other; just in their union [rather] is it Life consists.

Artful Dodger:

> You have to twist history for that (and you do and have).

How have I twisted history? Christians fought wars for wealth and empire. They came to the Americas and exterminated entire cultures to convert the native inhabitants into Christians. Christians fought wars during the Reformation and even in our present era conflicts between Protestants and Catholics remain. Christians burned people at the stake, they tortured people, forced people to convert to their religion against their will. Christians prosecuted Jews, Moslems, Gypsies, and other religious minorities.

These are not twisted historical facts. These are well-known historical facts.

> I don't defend war for the purpose of building empires or extracting commodities.

What was your stance on the war in Iraq? Did you see it as right or wrong? I hope that you did not celebrate its arrival like many Americans did. The Bush administration lied to the American people and carried on a war of empire building and oil supply control. Let's say for a moment that I am wrong. War of any kind should be abhorrent to any Christian. Violence of any kind should be abhorrent to any Christian. That is the core of the Sermon on the Mount. So can any war be justified on political or ideological grounds?

> By being against that, you would be in favor of seeing innocent people die rather than some low-life terrorist experience a few moments of fearful discomfort.

Now I will use fear to compromise my faith. I am afraid of terrorists, so I will justify an act of violence. I know that in the real world there are cruel people, but does that justify being violent? I see these politicians saying that they are Christians, then they turn around and justify violence out of political motives and fear. I suppose God makes exceptions when higher ideals are used to justify violence, physical or psychological.

> Gun ownership is legal.

I am not talking about the law or the constitution. I am talking about true Christian values. Is it a Christian value to say that it is OK for a person to buy and learn to use a lethal weapon? I will hide behind the constitution and say that something that is unChristian is acceptable because it is legal. Pornography is legal. It is legal to buy it, own it, see it, etc. Does that make pornography acceptable to a Christian?

I bring these things up not to put you on the spot, or to make Christianity look bad. I bring them up because I think a lot of people make compromises with their beliefs. There are many things that deep inside we know how wrong they are. Yet we justify them in the name of higher ideals. We hide behind those higher principles to do wrong.

That is precisely what terrorists do. These people know that killing is wrong. They know it is unacceptable to their version of God and their religion. But they do it in the name of some ideology.

Cristians might tell themselves that they are better, but are they really? How can a Christian make that claim when that person has compromised the core principles of Christianity in the name of politics, ideology or abstract ideals?

Artful Dodger: Are you falsely claiming that others (including me are) not honest.

We are more honest then you are.

"And it's only been used twice and only in extreme circumstances."

I hear on three people so far (requires more investigation to reasonably confirm numbers), and the number of times on two people was 266 times. It can kill or even cause damage to the lungs and brain.

The technique of waterboarding or any kind of torture is against what Christ taught, by nature of what it says in the Bible. Even when arrested Christ healed the ear of one of the arresting party that one of his buddies had cut off.

If you cannot accept Christ's words then go back to being a non Christian please, as you are giving Christians a bad name.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Bernice: ?????????????

Tuesday: China has had population control for decades, yet that is an extreme example of the problems of overpopulation and how to stop it.

The Fiqh Council of North America wishes to reaffirm Islam’s absolute condemnation of terrorism and religious extremism.
Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram Җ or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not martyrs.Ӕ

The Quran, IslamҒs revealed text, states: “Whoever kills a person [unjustly]it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” (QurŒan, 5:32)

Prophet Muhammad said there is no excuse for committing unjust acts: “Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)

God mandates moderation in faith and in all aspects of life when He states in the Quran: ғWe made you to be a community of the middle way, so that (with the example of your lives) you might bear witness to the truth before all mankind. (QurԒan, 2:143)

In another verse, God explains our duties as human beings when he says: Let there arise from among you a band of people who invite to righteousness, and enjoin good and forbid evil.Ӕ (Quran, 3:104)
Islam teaches us to act in a caring manner to all of God’s creation. The Prophet Muhammad, who is described in the QurҒan as a mercy to the worldsӔ said: All creation is the family of God, and the person most beloved by God (is the one) who is kind and caring toward His family.”

In the light of the teachings of the QurӒan and Sunnah we clearly and strongly state:

1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam.
2. It is haram for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence.
3. It is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians.

We issue this fatwa following the guidance of our scripture, the Quran, and the teachings of our Prophet Muhammad Җ peace be upon him. We urge all people to resolve all conflicts in just and peaceful manners.

We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism. We pray for the safety and security of our country, the United States, and its people. We pray for the safety and security of all inhabitants of our planet. We pray that interfaith harmony and cooperation prevail both in the United States and all around the globe.


.....145 Muslim organizations, mosques and imams have endorsed the preceding fatwa as of July 28, 2005 (see below). More signatory organizations are to be added in the following days. To add your American Muslim organization to the list, please email your name, title, and affiliation to cair@cair-net.org.

(V): “Muslim organizations, mosques and imams have endorsed the preceding fatwa as of July 28, 2005 (see below).”

Where exactly below can I see it?

By the way, do you read Quran, QurŒan, QurԒan, QurҒan or QurӒan?

Pedro Martínez:

From The American Muslim


"By the way, do you read Quran"

Bits and pieces, like I do with quite a few religions. I'm particularly fond of comparison you see, helps free the spirit.

Sufi's of the Islam faith I have read quite a few bits. Such as this....

"5.If a man has bad (sinful) actions [‘amal] so be it, but Allah forbid that his Belief [‘aqeedah] is bad. In a hadith it is written that run from a leper as you would from a lion; those with bad Belief are lepers of the heart—protect yourself from them, in fact do not even sit where they have sat. "

by Naqshbandi Sufi Master from Pakistan.

Artful Dodger: Just think.. not that long ago, the enlightened world allowed marital rape...

As the concept of human rights has developed, the belief of a marital right to sexual intercourse has become less widely held. Feminists worked systematically since the 1960s to overturn the marital rape exemption and criminalize marital rape.[11] Increasing criminalization of spousal rape is part of a worldwide reclassification of sexual crimes "from offenses against morality, the family, good customs, honor, or chastity … to offenses against liberty, self-determination, or physical integrity."[12] In December 1993, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights published the Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women[11]. This establishes marital rape as a human rights violation.

Despite these trends and international moves, criminalization has not occurred in all UN member States. In 1997, UNICEF reported that just 17 States criminalized marital rape.[13] In 2003, UNIFEM reported that more than 50 States did so.[14] In 2006, the UN Secretary General found "Marital rape may be prosecuted in at least 104 States. Of these, 32 have made marital rape a specific criminal offence, while the remaining 74 [sic] do not exempt marital rape from general rape provisions. Four States criminalize marital rape only when the spouses are judicially separated."[14]

Countries which were early to criminalize marital rape include the Soviet Union (1922/1960),[15] Poland (1932), Czechoslovakia (1950), Denmark (1960), Sweden (1965),[16] Norway (1971), and some other members of the Communist Bloc.[16] The Israeli Supreme Court affirmed that marital rape is a crime in a 1980 decision, citing law based on the Talmud.[17][18] Criminalization in Australia began with the state of New South Wales in 1981, followed by all other states from 1985 to 1992.[19] Several formerly British-ruled countries followed suit: Canada (1983),[20][21] New Zealand (1985), and Ireland (1990).[19]

Many United States rape statutes formerly precluded the prosecution of spouses, including estranged or even legally separated couples. In 1975, South Dakota removed this exception.[22] In 1993, North Carolina became the last state to remove the spousal exemption.[23] However, as of 1999, 33 of 50 U.S. states regard spousal rape as a lesser crime [Bergen, 1999]. The perpetrator may be charged with related crimes such as assault, battery, or spousal abuse. There are other criminal charges that may be inapplicable to married couples. For example, in the U.S., there is a marriage exemption to the charge of statutory rape even if one of the spouses is under the age of consent in the jurisdiction where the sexual act takes place.

France's Cour de Cassation authorized prosecution of spouses for rape or sexual assualt in 1990, but ruled in 1992 that a presumption of consent exists from the time of marriage until it is revoked by either party.[24] In 1994, Law 94-89 criminalized marital rape;[24] a second law, passed 4 April 2006, makes rape by a partner (including in unmarried couples, married couples, and in civil unions) an aggravating circumstance in prosecuting rape.[25] Germany outlawed spousal rape only in 1997, which is later than other developed countries. Female ministers and women's rights activists lobbied for this law for over 25 years.[26



............... Just think.. If we hadn't made such a mess by supporting fundamentalist groups to kill "our enemies", maybe the mindset would be different. Less neo-con.