Artful Dodger:

> The post was about Obama. YOu libs always like to Bring up Bush.

I am getting at the fact that you love to point the finger at Obama, and are incapable of doing so with your own political party.

Übergeek 바둑이: hahaha, you are so predictable. And you can't find the honesty to criticize Obama.

Artful Dodger:

> hahaha, you are so predictable. And you can't find the honesty to criticize Obama.

When Obama first came up with the "change" thing I knew it was wishful thinking because the bureacratic system of the US makes it impossible to change anything. A long time ago I posted that while Obama's desire to reform healthcare was well intentioned, the approach was completely wrong.

In fairness to Obama, Republicans have done everyhting in their power to make sure that he fails. Republicans have sunk as low as they could to ruin his presidency, and they have suceeded. Obama's failure is not in not delivering his promises, but in failing to stop Republicans from working for the benefit of the rich at the expense of the middle class.

In reality, the problem is not the Obama administration which inherited a real mess from the Bush administration. The real problem is that Americans insist on electing the same nicompoops into office. Any American who thinks that Sarah Palin or some similar right winger will change things is in for a big disappointment. Sarah Palin (like Obama) might pretend to be against elitism and the old establishment . Yet when she rises to the top, the first thing she will do is integrate herself into the system and become the elite and the old establishment herself. It is what has happened to every American president pretending to change or improve things.

In the end, both political parties are the same and when the time to really prove that they were different arose, they were quite happy to join forces for the benefit of the rich and powerful. i am talking of the bailouts for banks and car makers, which were a Bush initiative and were supported by both parties.

In the end, the United States reduces itself to a two-party pseudodemocracy. People are free to vote, but power ends up in the hands of the same elitist groups. Those who want to rise to the elite merely have to convince the public that they want to change or improve things. Once at the top, they merely become a part of the elite. Obama is guilty of this, and any Republican (Tea Partier or not) will be exactly the same.

As long as the public has enough money for Walmart and MacDonalds nothing will change and people will continue to vote blindly for the same nicompoops. It is like Allen West. It did not even bothered you that he tortured a man and was force to leave the military dishonorably. You put the man forth as somebody who really did good defending himself from Wasserman Schultz, without even wondering what kind of man he really is. It is that lack of scrutiny that allows the worst kind of people to rise to the top.

When Obama was elected I knew that he would fail. I just underestimated how badly he would fail, and I also underestimated how low the Republicans would go to ruin his presidency.

Übergeek 바둑이: you are deluded.

Artful Dodger:

With respect to that chart, what does the Helath Care Reform Bill have to do with private sector employment? Show me a chart that shows employment in the healthcare field alone, both private and public separetely. Then we will see a true correlation. Otherwise you are just showing a stalling in job creation. Of course, unemployment went from 5% to almost 10% under the Bush administration. It was teh Bush administration that took a booming economy and a surplus, and turned it into a recession and a deficit. Obama can only be blamed for not being able to fix a mess that probably nobody could fix. In the end, what have Republicans done to fix the mess, other than criticize the president and propose tax cuts for the rich?

Artful Dodger:

> you are deluded.

I am deluded. Then you must be a hypocrite for not admitting that Republicans do exaclty the same. I am sure there is no cronyism and nepotism among Republicans. They are all squeaky clean.

Artful Dodger: Even you have admitted there is a strong influence through the lobbying system.

Guess what.... it's there whoever is in power!!

To make out Republicans don't take bribes or reward friends is pure absolute drivel.

Übergeek 바둑이: Stop it with Bush. Obama owns this economy. He had two years with full house and senate and he did nothing. His stimulus failed. None of his economic policies have succeeded. And yet he keeps driving the economy down down down and libs like you offer excuses, excuses, excuses.

He promised a different Washington but delivered the same old same old. No transparency as promised, no jobs as promised, it's business as usual.

I'm willing to criticize any Republicans when they don't live up to Conservative principles. There's no praise for left wing loons. They are anti Americans and deserve only contempt.

Artful Dodger: Come on now, Loons are beautiful birds! What did they ever do to YOU?

rod03801: True. The Minnesota State Bird (after the mosquito) - My home state!

Übergeek 바둑이: In a world without absolutes, you are absolutely correct. There is no difference between Obamas presidency and Bushes. It's all the same. No difference at all.

OMG.. you guys on the right think economic policies are overcome, changed, their effects dissolved in just a few years.



Please.. you are still feeling the effects of policies made decades ago, but as such policies were made by Republican loons I guess it's blinkers time.

Iamon lyme:

> In a world without absolutes, you are absolutely correct. There is no difference between Obamas presidency and Bushes. It's all the same. No difference at all.

That is not what I said. I pointed to the fact that the political system has become stuck. Presidents can try to change things, but the entire Congress/Senate system has made it impossible to do so. Obama might have come in with great expectations, only to be stuck in the same old game of bipartisan politics, special interests, lobbying, corporate power, etc.

Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans can be expected to change anything because they both benefit from things as they are. Both represent corporate wealth and power. The working class counts only when it is election time and it is necessary to make promises to win votes. The rest of the time it is all about benefits for the rich and powerful and bailing the rich when their greed gets the better of them. Both parties are stuck in supply side economics (Reaganomics, Trickle-down economics or whatever one choses to call it).

Well, in a few years China will be the world's largest economy. China will slowly erode American power while both parties squabble over tax breaks for the rich. China continues to rise while both parties paralize the government over tax breaks for the rich.

Obama is a failure because his ideas and policies are utter failures. They will never work. They won't work under a Republican, Libertarian, or Democrat. However, Take a peek at what pure conservative ideas and policies will do for a State. More States will copy this. Those that don't, will look like California and worse, Illinois.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dmqC3611Ks&feature=player_embedded

Artful Dodger: Pure Conservative... please, such policies have been used by Conservative and Labour councils here for years regarding the state paying for companies to hire. IE the local government is subsidising business.

.. But.. when it came to saving the car industries it was a bad thing?

I see contradiction here!!

Birmingham Business Park is a business park operated by Goodman, an Australian property group, situated in the borough of Solihull, West Midlands of England, about 9 miles east of Birmingham city centre.

Current residents of the business park include Orange, Beiersdorf, Hewlett Packard and Fujitsu.[1]

The park lies close to the depressed district of Chelmsley Wood, part of a 'regeneration zone'. According to Richard Cutler, Goodman's director of strategy, 78 per cent of workers at the park are not residents of the zone.[2]
[edit] See also

Goodman UK

The US does NOT want to turn out like Europe.

.... as in we have better education?

.. Like we have history?

A conservitive woman gets called a "sl.." in the blogosphere and the feminists say NOTHING. All sorts of vile things are said of Sarah Palin and the feminists again are silent. But Debbid Wasserman Schultz is told to "shut the heck up" and the radical feminists come unglued and are raising hell over it.

A conservative woman can get called any vile name and the left is silent. A liberal woman is looked at funny and the libs are all over themselves objecting and calling for apologies and resignations....pathetic group.

Tuesday: I noticed over a years worth of your messages are gone. hmmmmmmmm

Artful Dodger: So I see it is with you.. is this a competition anyone can join in?

Tuesday: It's not a time to want to remember... I don't think you guys in America quite understand what the war was like in some respects. Your military saw it, but you as citizens did not live it.

Tuesday: Some memories when you go back into them you relive them, including the feelings and emotion of being that young age. The inaccurate bombing techniques required 1000's of bombs to be dropped in one raid. Those times were really nasty for the civilian populations in the UK and Europe regarding the bombing.

Tuesday: Aye.. it's not nice history. Cities being bombed, firestorms. We had a TV series years ago based on the efforts of those who disarmed unexploded bombs which was a common event in WWII. People in London basically slept in shelters or the underground during the blitz. Then afterwards all the various nationalist groups seeking Identity and recognition led to decades of terrorist bombings throughout Europe.

I don't think many in America quite understand how bloody war is in this day and age. N' why so many joined the likes of the CND when boys starting showing off their new toy nuclear bombs. As a civilian population you guys have not experienced war except for those who have emigrated from countries hit by full scale war.

Übergeek 바둑이: No, it's not what you said, but even in your response it does seem to be what you are implying. The problem I have with liberalism is that it is anything but liberating. I used to be bothered by how the lefts story will change to benefit themselves in the short run, but now I'm more bothered by what that tactic actually implies.. it means they are more focused on party loyalty than on what it actually takes to insure freedom, security, and prosperity. Those are not givens, and just because most of us have grown up and benefited from those things doesn't mean they are universal principles or laws that just naturally occur. It took time and effort to get these things, but they can just easily be lost or thrown away. It's like the song that says, "You don't know what you got till it's gone." (V) says hey, it takes time for economic recovery to happen. Well, yeah, especially when governmental intervention actually causes economic recovery to stall out or even reverse itself.

Iamon lyme: You mean it can. Just as private industry can cause a recession if there is no government to stop the greedy so and so's abusing the trust the public is told is implicit by the nature of the institution.

Regarding the view of economists.. Some say that when the economy is booming, governments should be scrimping... when the economy is busting the government should be spending to support the economic structure of the country.

Why.. because in the end if a government spends to create jobs the private industry cannot, it will get back a fair proportion in taxes, whilst all those jobbed people and businesses will take their cut.

"it actually takes to insure freedom, security, and prosperity."

These are relative concepts.. meaningless except in general terms, to general to mean anything unless a person describes explicitly their view on what such means.

Eg .. prosperity or part of this year is my tomato plants. 6 varieties... basil and salad growing as well from my freedom to choose to grow them. Security is keeping Slugs and snails away... The mint growing wild distracts them acting as a plant shield...N' smells and tastes great

(V): Not so meaningless to someone who hasn't always enjoyed living in relative freedom, security, and prosperity. If these are simply abstract concepts for you, then you don't understand their importance. Private enterprise exists to provide goods and services to people who are willing (not coerced) to purchase, with money they have made working for some other enterprise. Are these the 'greedy' people you are talking to? Government exists on money they take from people who actually produce and provide the goods and services other people are willing to (not coerced into) paying for. When government becomes so powerful it can take more money than it needs to administer its duty to the people who support it, to the point where hard working people have difficulty supporting themselves because of that drain, then who exactly are you saying is being greedy for the money they didn't earn?

Iamon lyme: Our government could take in a lot more in taxes than they will get from overburdoning businesses by simply allowing, and yes maybe even encouraging, private enterprise to grow and expand. When more businesses are establised and currently running businesses are allowed to grow the net result is more taxable income is created. Government creating jobs compared to what a private ecomony is able to do when left alone is joke. I don't know any economist whos income isn't dependant on political concerns and is free to say exactly how this all works who doesn't understand this.. but then, I don't know any economists whos income isn't dependant on bla bla bla bla bla.

Iamon lyme: I see Christians sending $ in for a place in heaven. This, is called security by some who believe in a 'gothic' heaven and hell.

"Not so meaningless"

That's twisting, one man's freedom, security and idea of prosperity is relative. You guys in America feel you need to own a gun.. I can understand that, but that can turn into insecurity and a cage where a person feels they need a small arsenal to protect them from "big bad wolf" government.

"people who are willing (not coerced) to purchase."

Oh please.. Businesses are quite adept at manipulating concious and unconscious thought processes.. Both the God and the Little DeViL within. They did want to use subliminals at one time.. banned.

"Are these the 'greedy' people you are talking to"

Bankers, Health companies, Purity makers and those exploiting Christians... Including the 'righteous' conservative preachers who always seem to have alot of bling!! The car manufacturers who asked a "willing" Nixon to delay the law on compulsory seatbelts so they could make a few more bucks at the expense of people dying in American made cars unnecessarily.

"Government exists on money they take from people.."

Yes. Somethings private enterprise just can't be trusted to run things.

"When government becomes so powerful it can take more money than it needs to administer its duty to the people who support it where hard working people have difficulty supporting themselves because of that drain."

Well you guys let the rich get richer and you hard workers pay for their tax cuts. It ain't Joe the plumber who reaps the benefit from tax cuts for the rich.. maybe a few illegal immigrant workers below the radar.. more likely.

.. And yes we get greedy people in government. They are only human. It's funny that we think 'officials' have to be saints but our CEO's can be gangsters.. eg Rupert Murdoch.

Tuesday: True... But luckily the plane and artillery were not available, nor a true machine gun as was used in WWII. The land grabbers and their government lapdogs would undoubtedly made use of such.

Iamon lyme: When government becomes so powerful it can take more money than it needs to administer its duty to the people who support it, to the point where hard working people have difficulty supporting themselves because of that drain, then who exactly are you saying is being greedy for the money they didn't earn?

From what I'm reading the USA .......... OWES the UK $350 million.. We loaned it to you.

****** Right Wing Terrorist kills at least 80 in attack on an island youth camp hours after bombing the capital of Norway.

Norway has had a problem with extreme neo/nazi & extreme conservative Christian groups for decades.

he suspect is reported by local media to have had links with right-wing extremists. Police named him as Anders Behring Breivik. His Oslo apartment was searched overnight.

The BBC's Richard Galpin, near the island, says that Norway has had problems with neo-Nazi groups in the past but the assumption was that such groups had been largely eliminated and did not pose a significant threat.

Police say they are investigating whether the attacks were the work of one man or whether he had help.

"At Utoeya, the water is still being searched for more victims," deputy police chief Roger Andresen told reporters.

"We have no more information than... what has been found on [his] own websites, which is that it goes towards the right and that it is, so to speak, Christian fundamentalist."

"He asked people to gather round and then he started shooting, so these young people fled into the bushes and woods and some even swam off the island to get to safety."

One 15-year-old eyewitness described how she saw what she thought was a police officer open fire.

"He first shot people on the island. Afterward he started shooting people in the water," youth camp delegate Elise told AP.

Mr Stoltenberg had been due to visit the camp on Saturday. Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Store, who visited the camp on Thursday, praised those who were attending.

"The country has no finer youth than young people who go for a summer camp doing politics, doing discussions, doing training, doing football, and then they experience this absolutely horrendous act of violence," he said.

(V):  well the US never collected on all the War Loans (WWI, WWII) we loaned out.. heck wonder what the interest would be??

ScarletRose: The US did not just get back payments in cash, some was in durable goods, ships and equipment. The UK paid you guys back and it seems other countries did, or in some way discounted costs on exports by significant percentages.. upto 90%.

More loss to all countries were the third world loans. But they caused so much damage to the countries who were loaned to that I think most were written off. I think the loans were to give some leverage to let western companies supply the new countries therefore developing foreign markets.

I think SR you should be more worried about how much the US now owes others and the interest on that. The money that is lost through the US rich avoiding taxation by using offshore accounts. The money spent on a military that does seem now to be 'the' American economy.

Vince Cable has attacked leading US Republican politicians for holding up a deal to reduce US government debt.

Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr Show, the business secretary called them "a few right-wing nutters in the American Congress". Unless a deal on Capitol Hill is agreed before 2 August, the US Treasury could run out of money to pay its bills.
.........Mr Cable said it presented a bigger risk to the global markets than the continuing debt woes in the eurozone.


President Barack Obama wants to cut US debts by both reducing government spending and raising taxes. Republicans in Congress are strongly opposed to the tax rises.

Mr Geithner told CNN: "It's unthinkable that this country will not meet its obligations on time.
"It's just unthinkable we'd ever do that. It's not going to happen." Yet he added that a Republican proposal to first raise the debt limit and then negotiate the spending cuts was "irresponsible" and would not be agreed by Democrats.

***** We in the UK are all paying an extra 2.5% in VAT.. what's wrong with the Republicans?? Worried about job cuts after public service..... mmmmmm **************

Mr Cable also welcomed the agreement of eurozone leaders to grant Greece a second financial bail-out, but says more still needed to be done. The business secretary said: "It hasn't solved the big problems, but it was a big step forward."

(V): Manipulating conscious and unconscious thought? You mean, like how you try telling me the workers and givers are greedy for wanting to impose limits on how much the takers and spenders can get? I know the difference between compulsory giving and giving of my own free will. If you fear being manipulated by conscious/unconscious attempts to persuade you, the remedy is easy.. decide for yourself, based on your own reasoning, if what you are being told is true or not. No one can manipulate your thoughts unless you allow it.

Iamon lyme: Limits based on what? Is a super computer needed to calculate and work out who's money goes where and where it can't?

"No one can manipulate your thoughts unless you allow it."

Are you sure about that, I see magicians doing it all the time to get you believe it's 'magic'. And quite frankly alot of people don't even get taught that they think.

Eg.. I hear alot of "real conservative" being said amongst other key words (eg Liberal, socialist) that seem to be embedded in certain board members here language. They mean.... nothing. Undefined concepts that rely on long time propaganda to cause reactions learned from others.

..sometimes these reactions can have been planted at a young age and through punishment and other means made unquestionable. Certain bAd memories insulated for the protection of the mind can cause unconscious memories.

Any good psychologist will tell you this. Imho anyone who says otherwise needs to rethink or see one.

ScarletRose:

> well the US never collected on all the War Loans (WWI, WWII) we loaned out.. heck wonder what the interest would be??

I think that this is true in part, but not entirely true. It wa smore complex that merely giving loans. One has to study the Marshall Plan to understand what happenend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_plan#Repayment

The conventional wisdom is that Western Europe had to be rebuilt in order to stop the spread of communism. People were poor and hungry, and the help was needed to revive the economies and avoid local population from going into revolution in favor of the communist parties.

In reality there were not just loans but grants and loans. Most of the money was given as grants which were used to buy manufactured goods to supply the population, and invested to stimulate the local economies.

In some countries like Belgium the grants were essential in the recovery. In other countries the recovery had started even before the grants were given out in 1948 (for example, Germany and France) . However, American and Canadian banks and manufacturers made billions in profits because Europeans took those grants and bought from those countries which had economies left intact after the war. That was the USA and Canada. So Americans and Canadians gave grants, and in turn made billions in profits.

At this point we must note that the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc countries received no help under the Marshall Plan, and the Soviet Union had to fully repay money borrowed or owed during WWII. The effect was to prop western economies while forcing the Soviet economy to collapse.

The grants also included provisions to ensure that European countries would accept the presence of American military bases (including nuclear weapons) in their countries. The grants also forced the economies to adopt a pro-capitalist economic model and government system. The way in which these grants were applied became a model on which the Wolrd Bank and International Monetary Fund would operate later. Those international lenders lend money only if governments adopt policies that favor big western corporations and western military interests.

The loans and grants were not something given as a gesture of friendship and good will, but as a calculated political manouver aimed at stopping communism and attaining political and military influence. Most of the money returned to the USA and Canada as manufacuturing profits. Considering the end result more money was made than was given out.