Artful Dodger: And it is not impossible to know. The best estimates are made by those who research the issue, like ORB, as posted below.

Artful Dodger: Sure, there is plenty of good information you can find by googling.

Czuch: "Can you give me somewhere to find where the FBI says they have confiscated video that they do not want to release?"

Do you want me to provide you with a Bush-Cheney confession tape also?

These confiscations are based on testimony. Maybe all these people are lying. Again, you would prefer to conjure up any nonsensical loophole you can find, rather than actually do any legitimate research of the issues. With someone so intent as you are to remain uninformed, what is the point of debate? You "see no evil, hear no evil," no matter the evidence.

Artful Dodger: I'm using the best research available by disinterested parties, not the purposely deflated numbers of interested parties. Those are the numbers YOU choose to use. Why? Because you don't want to know the truth. That's ok. There are always those who will support war crimes with any justification and who will deny the evidence even when bodies are laying in front of them.

Czuch: "For your version of 9/11 to work, it must work in all facets and in all and every instance....."

Not so. It is not a chain argument, but a cable argument. In a chain argument, you break one link, the whole case falls. In a cable argument, certain strands may snap, yet the cable hold.

There are so many strands in this cable as to amount to overwhelming proof of U.S. government complicity. You simply haven't researched it.

On the other hand, the official conspiracy theory is defeated at every point by overwhelming evidence. Again, you haven't researched it.

However, MANY Americans have researched it, and many more are doing so. The numbers of those who know are climbing and the truth, in this age of information, cannot be withheld.

It makes me sad. I'm sorry it happened. It makes me angry, that a group of Neo-Cons would destroy America. Many people who voted for Bush now have seen the evidence & become painfully reconciled to the truth. Many people who did not vote for Bush have gone through the painful experience of recognizing their Democratic leaders are also guilty of crimes.

The Founding Fathers recognized the dangers the centralized authority, standing armies, power concentrated in a few hands. It's why the Revolutionary War was fought. Those who worship American power today (YOU) are not moved by the spirit of 1776.

Military Slaughters Iraqi Civilians:
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/68980/


Targeting Civilians in War (A Book):
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/18227/targeting_civilians_in_war.html


The Laws of War, US-Style:
--More than three hundred Iraqi civilians died on 13 February 1991 when two US F-117 stealth bombers targeted the al-Amiriya bunker in Baghdad. Photographs of the charred and twisted bodies of women and children shocked a world which, thanks to Norman Schwarzkopf and CNN, had seen little of the horrors of the Gulf War. Pentagon officials, who claimed to have intelligence indicating the bunker was a command and control centre, denied knowledge of the civilian presence. Had they known, the attack would probably have been classed as a war crime.--
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n04/byer01_.html


Belgian Law Suit Accusing the US of War Crimes in Iraq:
http://www.counterpunch.org/boyle05172003.html


The list goes on. I could copy & paste for hours. Here is the pattern:

1. The U.S. bombs and kills civilians.
2. The military reports casualties of enemy combatants, but not civilians.
3. Third parties then report the civilian deaths.
4. U.S. Army denies it knew civilians were present.
5. Repeat ad infinitum.

--Iraqi Civilians Killed, Estimated - A UN issued report dated Sept 20, 2006 stating that Iraqi civilian casualties have been significantly under-reported. Casualties are reported at 50,000 to over 100,000, but may be much higher. Some informed estimates place Iraqi civilian casualities at over 600,000.--
http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm


--BALTIMORE, Maryland (CNN) -- War has wiped out about 655,000 Iraqis or more than 500 people a day since the U.S.-led invasion, a new study reports.--
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/


--Finally, they point out that more recent data confirm their findings and even suggest a higher figure. The British polling firm Opinion Research Business (ORB) asked 1,720 Iraqi adults last summer if they had lost family members by violence since 2003; 16% had lost one, and 5% two. Using the 2005 census total of 4,050,597 households in Iraq, this suggests 1,220,580 deaths since the invasion. Accounting for a standard margin of error, ORB says, "We believe the range is a minimum of 733,158 to a maximum of 1,446,063."--
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/iraq

(V): That's a good argument and may be correct, unless....they have other less-than-pleasant reasons NOT to make us dead.

Perhaps not likely, but a possibility. I suppose I am inclined to think, looking at the abduction phenomena, either a lot of people are hallucinating or it is really happening. And if the latter, the aliens don't seem too respectful of the rights of self-conscious beings, at least other than themselves.

Of course, if they aren't actually killing people they abduct, I guess that can be considered a plus. I sure hope you're right. lol

(V): Maybe I didn't follow your conversation with Emma closely enough. I was assuming you were arguing the aliens would most likely be friendly types, and she was arguing the contrary. Did I miss the point? Up until the last few years, I believe I would have argued in favor of the aliens. Now I'm not so sure. lol

(V): The abyss they've fallen into is called The Bottomless Pit.

Of course no confession is valid if forced by these means. How could it be? Common sense tells us no confession gotten by these means can be trustworthy. And of course it has been against U.S. law since the founding of our Republic. Only under the Bush administration, and our fall into a bona fide dictatorship (for such we are), was such a thing even considered. A lot of people (the intelligent ones) are numb at the changes our country has undergone during the past 8 years.

(V): Amen to that.

Artful Dodger: "I was referring to the 750,000 Iraqi civilians you say we murdered."

The way I see it is this. Bombs are intended to kill. When we knowingly drop them on civilian targets (and we do), we know we are killing civilians. I think that meets the definition of murder-with-intent.

Some might say, this is war. Sure it is. And death in war has several causes, including acts of self-defense, accidents, and even temporary insanity (like acts of rage, 2nd degree murder). But war doesn't change the fact that the pre-meditated killing of innocents is murder. In Iraq, as in Vietnam, as in Hiroshima, etc., it is mass murder, i.e., genocide.

You're right, I don't spend much time pointing the finger at the atrocities committed by other peoples and nations. My first responsibility, as I see it, is to point the finger at myself (i.e., the U.S.), before pointing it at others. And unfortunately, the U.S. commits many astounding atrocities.

I know the U.S.S.R. murdered millions. I know there are Muslims who murder people. I know about the Khmer Rouge, and many genocides the world over. Most, unfortunatedly, we don't use our power to try to stop. And in some cases, we've actually instigated them, by supplying arms, etc.

I know you want to focus on the one issue for now, and as I said, I completely understand that. But in answer to your point about calling the deaths of Iraqi civilians murder, I wanted to clarify my position.

Artful Dodger: Sleep well but may your dreams disturb you. That's a contradiction. lol

Nite :o)

Artful Dodger: Yes, it's the one with the woman talking. The internet is awesome. I mention the Veterans DVD site because there's no point in paying top dollar (or even discount price) for a particular DVD if you can get it for a buck.

I used "murder" because the released military autopsy reports stated cause of death as "homicide." The terms are synonymous, so for that reason I don't see my statement as propaganda; although, for emotional impact, I agree that "murder" is the stronger term. That is a rhetorical use of synonyms in order to, hopefully, cause readers to recognize the seriousness of the charge....i.e., to hit them in the gut, not just the head.

I mean specifically here:

http://www.v911t.org/21_DVDs_Truth.php

Brought to you by Veterans for 9/11 Truth (I'm a proud member) in our ongoing Operation Vigilant Truth.

Artful Dodger: "You also pack your posts with emotional wording that qualifies as propaganda."

What can I say? I can't deny it, I get emotional about these issues. :o)

A better word than "propaganda," though, might be "rhetoric." The first term means to indoctrinate by subterfuge, the second means to attempt to persuade by convincing argument (which might include emotional appeal).

Artful Dodger: "It is enough for me that I want to explore just ONE THING for now."

Sure, I can understand that.

A very good DVD specifically on the fall of the towers & wtc7 is "9/11 Mysteries." At One Dollar DVDs, you can get that and whatever else might interest you.

Artful Dodger: "Water boarding isn't torture. Sleep deprivation isn't either."

It certainly is. Try it sometime and see for yourself.

Bernice: Google "white house authorization of torture" and see what you come up with.

Artful Dodger: "Why not just follow their rules with captures."

Because you can't do it without becoming the monster you are supposedly fighting against.

As to having no sympathy for those who hate America, some have good reasons to hate America, such as Iraqi civilians, 750,000 of whom we have murdered. They certainly have the right of self-defense against an aggressor nation.

Bernice: It may be hard to believe, but it is true. The sickos were (and still are) in the White House. Those who carry out the torture are also sickos. How far civilization has sunk, I agree, is almost beyond belief.

As to AD's statement, "Greg knows these things are true because he has bugged the White House," the reason I know these things is that the memos, numerous memos, have been released which prove it to be the case.

Cheney said, shortly after 9/11, that we would now turn to "dark side," and he meant it. So he, along with others involved, ought to be tried, convicted, and hanged for their crimes against humanity.

Artful Dodger: "I have no sympathy for the enemy. NONE."

So be more specific. Does that mean, if a man is captured, and then tortured until he dies, you have no sympathy for him? Do you think that is ok?

And are you convinced (apparently you are) that every man our troops captured and imprisoned, and tortured, is the "enemy"? In spite of vast evidence that people were just rounded up?

Artful Dodger: I, too, sympathy with those on the battlefield. On both sides, frankly. Perhaps you think that is too big-hearted of me. But soldiers don't choose their wars. As for those who want to rule the world, I think it pretty well established that we are guilty of that.

Bernice: I'm very serious. Wake up and learn that torture was authorized by the White House.

Artful Dodger: "Frankly I prefer them dead to our guys."

Sorry if I connected the dots on your statement. We are talking about murder and torture. You said you prefer them dead. But they died through torture. It simply follows that you support torture and murder. You certainly did not clarify your statement, to segregate it from the discussion at hand, which I find terribly irresponsible at best. You might have said, "Although I do not support murder and torture, otherwise I prefer our enemies dead."

Artful Dodger: No sir, I don't prefer a dead American. I prefer we get those troops out so they will neither kill or be killed. I support the troops, as human beings, more than any gung-ho warmonger.

And the blame for atrocities committed by soldiers in "the line of duty" lies with those who give the orders....ultimately with the White House & Congress.

Step out Bush, step in Obama.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Find-Freedom.htm?EdNo=001&At=046164

Artful Dodger: At least you admit you agree with torture and murder. I'm sure that makes you a Great American in Shaun Hannity's eyes.

Just google "Operation Mockingbird" for starters.

The CIA is the enemy of any true republic or any true democracy.

I meant, "ignore the evidence"

Artful Dodger: So you think the ACLU forged documents blaming the U.S. government of murder, then the AP sent this story, along with the forged documents as evidence, out on the wire....which every news media organization except 12 recognized as a forgery, therefore didn't report?

Are you kidding me? If that were true, the media would have a field exposing the forgery, especially the right wing media....and the ACLU would be prosecuted for slander.

I even pasted a link to Google images of its effects on the unborn. But no one even commented on it. "It's too terrible to comtemplate, so let's pretend we didn't see it, or tell ourselves it can't be true."

Yes, it is true. Depleted Uranium causes radiation poisening, and has a half-life of 4.5 billion years. Our soldiers are infected, the Iraqi people are infected. This is what we coat our armor-penetrating missiles with. It is an evil weapon and only an evil regime would use it. And every sane person knows this. So it is better to ignore the ignorance, or question its validity.

Artful Dodger: It is true all right.

Artful Dodger: Perhaps not. But that's a side issue, is it not? The real issue here is, the U.S. tortured people to death on multiple occasions.

Artful Dodger: You've been programmed not to by the corporate media. More importantly, the documents obtained speak for themselves.

http://www.aclu.org/intlhumanrights/gen/21236prs20051024.html

I forgot the link.

This news item was carried in less than a dozen of the thousands of U.S. media outlets, including newspapers, television, radio, magazines, etc. In newspapers, where it was carried, it never made the front page. None of these few media outlets who DID carry the story, carried it more than once.

This is called cover-up by the so-called Fourth Estate. Cover-up of what? Murder by torture.

Note, of 44 autopsy reports carried out by U.S. military doctors, 21 causes of death were listed as "murder," and 23 as "heart failure" during interrogation. Lacerations, broken bones, contusions, you name it.

I didn't know of this. I bet no one here knew either. I listened to a speech this morning, where I learned of it. The ACLU sued for these documents, and eventually got them.

Artful Dodger: LOL My momma told me never to rock the boat.

"The CIA. itself a ruthless, terrorist organization inspires terrorism in response. In some cases, notably the CIA and al Qaeda, the relationship between the CIA and terrorism is symbiotic. The CIA has perpetrated an “American Holocaust”, the deaths of some 6 million people from its inception to the year 1987. As Long as the CIA Exists, the US will never be safe from terrorism."

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Find-Freedom.htm?EdNo=001&At=046866

Czuch: "You got no problems with any of that crap????"

Either you're missing my point or I'm missing yours. I told you what I think of Al Gore. I told you what I think of all the corporate news media, both liberal and conservative. Why, if I reject all of it, would you then think I have no problem with any of it?

Artful Dodger: You're confusing spiritual death with physical. lol

Artful Dodger: I think Ron Paul may be the only Congressman, of the Left OR Right, that our Founding Fathers would actually recognize. He is the only I know of who remotely stands on the same principles.

Artful Dodger: You missed nothing. He had no defense against Paul's argument, so he threw straw-man arguments at him, none of which addressed the core issue.

Ron Paul nailed it. He harkens back to the Constitution, and accuses the Congress of relinquishing its power to the Executive branch, which - as all history indicates - is a formula for disaster.

Artful Dodger: It'd be better when you let ME know when you've been converted. :o)

...I can find conservatives, libertarians, liberals, constitutionalists, socialists, capitalists, you name it, against the so-called War on Terror, against the illegal Iraq invasion, and who recognize U.S. complicity in the events of 9/11. :o)

Artful Dodger: lol It's one of the best books you'll ever read. It's worth the price alone just to get to "know" Jubal Harshaw, the old cantankerous, brilliant iconoclast whose view of politics and American culture is sure to get anyone to thinking.

Czuch: "well I have at least the same on my side, there are just as many people, even more, who will tell me it could have happened just that way"

What does it matter what people will tell you? Where does the evidence lead, that ought to be the question.

As to the Pentagon, you've got one government-released 5-frame video showing a blur & an explosion. However, we have testimony that all other video was confiscated immediately by the FBI (for examples, from a gas station across the street, from a hotel, from the Dept. of Transportation), nor has the Pentagon released video footage from its dozens of surrounding cameras. What does the video you've seen prove? Nothing. What do the unreleased videos prove? Nothing except the government doesn't want you to see them. If there is nothing to hide, why not?

(V): I think I may lean a bit more towards Emma's interpretation here. lol :o)

"conservative"

Being a pawn, I can't modify my (many) errors.