Iamon lyme: Or the tool? Or God not knowing that which is, just believing. Like Constantine when a solar event made him (through the help of an advisor) decide to worship the Son of God rather than the Sun?

Or should we fear the tool? Like when the American manufacturers were approached by two US boffins who'd designed the first robotic arms because of sci fi films of the era.... the two guys went to Japan and made a mint.

The Col: No, my "rebirth" wasn't as dramatic as that. But since there are no coconuts growing over my bed, one falling on my head would have definitely caused me to sit up and take notice.

Iamon lyme: But they are not our options. they may be your options.. but others may have more than two. Nor does it mean they are relevant options.

Yes, computers are tools, but the mind that created them was not. It was alive... unless, are the aliens telling you different??

(V): Mints are good. I found one on my pillow once at a ritzy hotel. Did those guys who went to Japan make any more of those? If not, then logic dictates that the mint I found on my pillow had to have been the very same one they made in Japan.

By the way, if you suffer from headaches, I know about a sure fire cure...

Iamon lyme: Logic does not dictate that. Pure logic excepts a certain uncertainty in things of the world, yes/no/or/and\or.. otherwise some tools like the one you are using now cannot work. Pure philosophical logic knows nothing and yet knows everything...

Is this sure fire cure for headaches the one you use?

The Col: I like those verses. Speaks well of Paul and the Christian faith. What do you have to say about them?

Artful Dodger: well that wouldn't apply to Americans would it as there are no slaves any more....hmmmmm?

Artful Dodger: interesting,that is what I said about them originally

(V):

Logic is a good tool. But it's not a perfect tool. You can start with a solid premise, proceed with flawless logic, and still come up with a wrong answer. I suspect you might argue with the word 'wrong', but this has been tested and proven to be true long before I was born. A wrong outcome can usually be attributed to a flawed premise, but not always.

" Pure philosophical logic knows nothing and yet knows everything... "

Oh come on, admit it... you pulled that one out of a fortune cookie.

(V): " Is this sure fire cure for headaches the one you use? "

No, and for good reason. It can only be used once, but it's almost 100% effective. I say 'almost' because there is a small chance of survival.

Actually, I was just checking to see if you were reading my messages, or could somehow divine them without looking.

The Col: We probably mean different things.

Bernice: Well, there are slaves in America (sadly). Slavery is alive and well in the world.

Artful Dodger: well I suppose you are right....Im a slave to eating LOL.......

Artful Dodger:

"Anyone who has seen my posts over the years know that my knowledge on science has a low threshold. I can't even follow your posts on science. YOu'd think that would be enough of a clue."

It could be clue, but that assumes they know how to go about looking for clues. But it's not really a clue, because you apparently have the brainpower to understand anything I might understand. If I seem to know more about science it's because I probably have more of an interest in it. The past me 'worshiped' science, which means I thought it was the most important thing anyone could be interested in.

The real difference between us is what floats our particular boats.

The people claiming I'm you posing as me are doing this because you and I are obviously friends, and any friend of yours is automatically an enemy of theirs. In their minds I don't even think it matters if we are the same person or not, they won't let it go for no other reason than to give you a hard time.

Anyway, here's an example of what I mean about science. You've probably heard about the possibility of extra dimensions. String theory needs extra dimensions in order for the theory to maintain its internal consistency, but that's another story.

So anyway, whether or not there are extra physical dimensions beyond the three we know about (because we can see and feel them), do you think it is possible for any kind of two dimensional reality to exist?

by the way, Uber and V are more than welcome to answer and give their reasons.

Iamon lyme: Logic always has limits, it is also often misused in situations that logic cannot be logically applied.

No, I not going to argue with the word wrong, but I will point out that sometimes... we can't just know if something is wrong. Like the current model of how matter is made up and through the likes of the Higgs particle we can exist.

.... the model might be wrong, yet it might be right.

"Oh come on, admit it... you pulled that one out of a fortune cookie."

Nope, though you might find similar in a fortune cookie. You'd also find it in various religious texts and writings on throughout human history. Not everything is Confucius!!

"No, and for good reason. It can only be used once, but it's almost 100% effective. I say 'almost' because there is a small chance of survival."

Effective for how long? Puberty is just another incarnation away!!

Bernice: chocolate!

Iamon lyme: hmmmm, I'm not sure about two dimensional realities existing but I do believe there is another dimension which, at the moment, we can't access.

Artful Dodger: That other dimension we can't access, at the moment, is something I'm sure isn't factored into String theory. I don't really care if it is or not... I don't store my personal beliefs on the same shelf with the toys I play with.

I don't know if anyone else is going to weigh in on this, so instead of waiting for something that may not happen, I'll just go ahead and tell you what my answer is.

A three dimensional object has length, width, and depth. A two dimensional object would only have length and width, which means it has zero depth. Without that third dimensional depth, a two dimensional object could only exist as a plane bordered by a line made up of imaginary points. With no depth at all, the two dimensional 'object' cannot exist as an object, because the line made up of imaginary points doesn't actually exist. It is imaginary.

Here's the bit you might like, because it's something I didn't know until you told me about it a few years back. You told me about irreducible complexity. The principle of irreducible complexity shows that physical reality is dependant on all three dimensions existing at the same time, otherwise no physical reality can exist. There may only be three, but it can't be reduced from that.

Here on the planet earth, we call them "Doctors".

Iamon lyme: Yeah, it's funny how atheists call science whatever doesn't challenge their materialistic view of the world. Irreducible Complexity is a huge challenge for scientists so many of them explain it away with weak arguments or they discount it all together with false claims against creationism. And yet these same scientists would wet themselves if SETI received even one intelligent signal from space. ☮☆☼•*¨*•. ¸¸•*¨☼☮☆☼•*¨*•. ¸¸•*¨☼

Artful Dodger: Why are God believers so consumed with atheism?

The Col:

" Why are God believers so consumed with atheism? "

Sometimes I wonder the same about atheism believers. If it weren't for us, there would be no atheists.

JungleBurger: Did you not get the memo? Art is supposed to BE me. Or do you not believe that? :)

JungleBurger: If Art is driving his cab right now, I don't want him to reply. I want him to keep his eyes on the road. I don't want him getting us BOTH killed. :p

The Col: Darwin.. The communist threat.. though more likely it's like the ex smoker... You were an atheist and now you feel the need to make up to God with your born again passion!!

.. But why would God care?

God believers have been proven wrong on the likes of the relation of the Earth with the rest of creation. If they were to be right.. I'm sure a big sign could have been made.. or a plaque!!

The Col: we're not

The Col: Real atheists are people who've never been convinced there's a God. Not people who aggressively fight against the concept of God. Those are simply anti-theists.

Artful Dodger: "How about that Fast and Furious scandal?"

Scandal? What scandal? If it can't be blamed on Bush, then it can't be a scandal... it never happened. What are you talking about?

Iamon lyme: Oh wait. You're right. My bad. It is Bush's fault. Maybe Holder is just trying to protect Bush and that's why he's withholding evidence. (that's why they call him Holder).

Iamon lyme: re Sometimes I wonder the same about atheism believers. If it weren't for us, there would be no atheists."

That's like saying.I wouldn't love Chinese food if it didn't exist.........I'm not into modern art, so it does not occupy my thoughts, it's not in my solar system, dig?

Artful Dodger: I think they're called Agnostics, but I could be wrong

The Col: I actually don't fully know the difference either. But and agnostic is one who admits that he doesn't really know (perhaps due to lack of evidence or other factors). And anti-theist is somewhat of a activist on proving (through arguments) the non-existence of God (whom they don't believe exists). But they are active against the idea of God. An atheist seems to me one what believes they know God doesn't exist. They reject all arguments given for the existence of God as insufficient.

The only atheist I ever appreciated and like to hear his views is Hitchens. At least in the interviews I saw, he was always eloquent, respectful, and knew his stuff.

Artful Dodger: I think you're right. But it can only be traced back through the aliens involvement. They are controling Obama, Obama controls Holder, and Bush controls the aliens. They control me too, but for some reason contact with them has been broken... I woke up this morning with a headache, like my head was in a meatgrinder. After the headache goes away contact will be re-established and I will deny everything.

Iamon lyme: I wear a tin-foil hat as it block their alpha-beta communicative microwave radiogenerator and frequency frequencer. It seems to work as he voices in my head are down to 3.

Artful Dodger: Yeah, and one of those voices is me. But who are the other two? I thought it was just you and me.

The Col: What? The king of KFC admits to loving Chinese food? Scandalous!

Does Mrs KFC know about this?

Artful Dodger: Hitchens , I could listen to him all night, huge loss

Iamon lyme: shhhhhhh

The Col: Huge loss. I didn't agree with his ideas about God but he gave clear and compelling answers when explaining his objections. Listening to him was a good way to get a glimpse at what were good arguments for the atheist/agnostic point of view. He always made me think.

Iamon lyme: There must be a third player that we haven't met yet. hmmmmmmmm

Artful Dodger: I haven't done much of a search of past messages here, so I don't know how much has been said about the Fast and Furious fiasco. So far the only people I've seen commenting on it are you and me. If it was the only topic allowed on this board, this place would be like a ghost town. Where did all the free thinking and open minded people scoot off to? They are always around when the subject suits them...

oops, I think I just answered my own question.

Iamon lyme: we 'scooted off" as you put it because every time we post our posts are deleted....or rather mine is.....

Bernice: Some of mine were deleted last night, and for good reason. I tried to warn Bawana, but I think he may have had a snootful last night, because I woke up with his hangover.. thanks a lot, AD!!!

(V): "No, I not going to argue with the word wrong, but I will point out that sometimes... we can't just know if something is wrong. Like the current model of how matter is made up and through the likes of the Higgs particle we can exist."

How does saying "sometimes... we can't just know if something is wrong" disprove what I said about logic?

A lot of theorists have spent years looking for the Higgs particle. If it can be proven to not exist, there are going to be a lot of very unhappy physicists seen jumping out of second story windows.

Maybe it's hard to find the Higgs Boson particle because it moves too fast and furiously..

Wait, I just saw a heading on Google that says higgs boson found... ?

Nope, false alarm. The higgs has not been found. "close to discovering" and "may soon be found" doesn't mean a thing.

I wish credible scientists would stop talking to anyone who is willing to interview them. Do they really want their stories showing up in the same rags that deny aliens are among us?

Iamon lyme: um right.... I didn't say that, I said it in regards to things being wrong.

They've not said they've found it, they've not reached a high sigma value of certainty. At best, they can only say where it isn't. So.. they might be right, they might be wrong. It's undecided...... there is no wrong or right answer that logically can be given in such a circumstance.. it's a maybe.

Most I've heard say they are ok about not finding it. Just it'll mean rewriting particle physics theories, but then again it could be like Newtons laws on gravity.. mostly right.

.. Like that text book answer you nicked off the web on three dimensions.. which is right and wrong. We need time as well to exist as we do, which makes 4 dimensions minimum., space/time being one and the same.

.... what about those raised Christian who then through logic work out that God does not exist by looking at the Bible. The literal version that is taught alot in the USA does not make sense. God's character in such a scenario ... human sacrifice, slavery, and genocide being part of an all loving Creator ok to do list. That humans have been picked on out of all the universe (or universes) to be tested then the majority killed off on a whim.

It sounds more like a Douglas Adams plot. Multi dimensional beings have created the Earth to find the question... I hope the Vogon fleet part isn't true.

(V): Time isn't a physical dimension, and I didn't nic anything off the web. It's just common sense, or is that something else you don't believe in?

(V): You can tell God all about what God is all about when you see Him. As for Christians, I don't pay much attention to the ones who share your beliefs in what/who God is or isn't. I don't speculate much on who or what you are. Just because I see your written word here doesn't mean much to me either.. does it prove that you exist?