Artful Dodger: where have I heard that before?

Artful Dodger: ummm..Crusades?

rod03801: No. Where did you hear that?

Artful Dodger: Exaggeration. No head hacking here. But.. we don't have the death penalty like in the US ... ... .. mmmmm

"The film was a bad idea and disrespectful. But it in no way warrants such a savage reaction. Christians would not react in such a way. And then there is this:"

Kevin Smith had death threats over the film Dogma, anti abortionists of Christian denomination killing is just a myth.

You are telling me those anti abortionists were being respectful.

... You don't want me to talk about Northern Ireland do you?

Vikings: You won't hear it from the main stream media. They won't touch that connection.

Bwild: The crusades were an entirely different thing. A sad part of the history of Christianity to be sure. But it's not the same thing. Christianity doesn't teach the things that went on in the crusades. But Islam does teach the things that goes on in Islam. AND it's happening now. You have some isolated nuts in Christianity but in Islam you have whole populations that have world domination as their goal.

(V): There is no exaggeration here. And we're not talking about death penalties nor are we talking about an isolated religious nut killing an abortionist. We're talking about whole populations that are hell bent on putting the world under the control of Islam. And they are making progress. In your country there is a huge problem with militant Islamist extremists.

Artful Dodger: I could say about the same with the US, regarding the CIA and foreign policy a few decades ago. We are talking about policies that have ended up in thousands upon thousands dying.

But it wasn't the whole of the US population who wanted this... just the 1%.

(V): You could say a lot of things except for the fact that we're talking about something specific: The Muslim riots in light of some silly film. BTW, that film has been on YouTube for months. Interesting that the uprisings started on 911. But then there is no connection. They just collectively decided on that day to rape a US Ambassador and murder him and then set fire to the compound.

These savages don't need an excuse to make war. That's part of their religion. The sooner people recognize it the better.

Artful Dodger: Judaism recorded their wars as well.... including the massacres they did. Christianity was formalised into a religion based on a pogrom.

And when our religion split....

"Interesting that the uprisings started on 911. But then there is no connection."

911 is just when Americans as a nation woke up to what had happened on their behalf.

And then there's this: http://patdollard.com/2012/09/280069/

Artful Dodger: [ BTW, that film has been on YouTube for months. ]

I was curious about the timing, when the clip came out in relation to when the violence erupted. It's clear from everything I've heard and read that whoever put this out there fully intended to start something.

If you know a particular group of people will react like mad dogs if you taunt them, then there is no excuse for inciting them. Taunting Christians doesn't result in this kind of reaction, but I have to wonder if self disicpline as taught by the Bible is something the Islamic religion teaches. When the Bible says the meek will inherit the earth, it's not saying passive people will be in charge... that's not what meek means. It means exercising the kind of self disicpline most good parents want to see their children develop.

I think the person (or people) who funded and put that clip on youtube fully intended for it to have the sort of reaction that has now erupted. I read on this board someone saying $5 mil went into making it. Is that right? If so that tells me someone went to the trouble and expense of trying to set off a 'mad dog' reaction, fully knowing and intending for this to happen.

Iamon lyme: For the very reasons you cited, I personally would never do it. But I think it was done because it could be done. Even knowing that it would tick off the savages in Islam. It's the same with the burning of the Koran. We don't refrain from burning the Koran just because some crazies will riot, rape, and murder. That has to be on them. Those that respond badly to something they don't like are responsible for their own behavior. The Bible is burned as is the flag. It's a speech thing. I think it's dumb but they have the right to do it. It's not enough to kill over( waterboard yes....I'd water board the film maker - but keep in mind that Bill Maher made an anti-religious film and in it he also attacked Islam. We didn't hear squat about that! AND that same Bill Maher gave Obama 1 million dollars! Where's the media???

Israeli Science Website: Obama Birth Certificate Forged http://www.dailypaul.com/254247/israeli-science-website-obama-birth-certificate-forged via @dailypaul

Iamon lyme: Like the Christians and churches discipline regarding child abuse by church members?

FAIRVIEW — A young girl told authorities a Fairview pastor used sexual abuse as punishment.

Tommy Joe Pitts, 51, was charged Wednesday in Major County District Court with nine felony counts in connection with the sexual assault of three girls ages 8, 9, and 12.

The complaints include two counts of first-degree rape, four counts of lewd molestation and three counts of rape by instrumentation.

Pitts appeared briefly in court Wednesday afternoon with his attorney, Fritz McGee. His bail is set at $1 million.

His wife was in the courtroom. She called the sheriff’s department March 31 to report Pitts molested three girls and was threatening to kill himself. Pitts was arrested after he deliberately drove into the path of a tractor-trailer rig, authorities said. The vehicles did not strike each other and Pitts was not injured, authorities said.

Pitts’ wife said she became suspicious of Pitts when he insisted on spending more time alone with the girls and confronted him about the alleged abuse on March 31.

The 12-year-old girl told authorities when the girls broke a rule Pitts would give them a choice of punishment. He offered the option of getting a spanking or touching his genitals.

Investigators claim they’ve documented more than 70 instances of sexual assault against the three girls. Pitts, an ordained minster with the Assemblies of God since 2007, was pastor at the Midway Assembly of God in Fairview.

(V): So you think this story is representative of the majority of Christian churches across America?

It just amazes me that in political discussion I so often hear about the top earners not paying their fair share. But the facts seem to say something different:
Of the Federal Income Tax Paid--

Top 1% paid 37% of the total
Top 5% paid 59% of the total
Top 10% paid 70% of the total
And the Bottom 50% paid only 2.3%

Someone has to explain this fact in light of the claim that the top 1% don't pay their fair share. BTW, there are MANY who pay ZERO federal income taxes (and yes they work).

How is that paying a "fair share?"

Artful Dodger: [ So you think this story is representative of the majority of Christian churches across America? ]

I think in V's mind it's either utopia or nothing. Either he doesn't understand that God is not a tyrant, and therefore will not interfer with our decisions, or he actually believes being a tyrant and enforcing what HE thinks is right is more desirable.

One of the main reasons for the rioting by Islamists is that they believe the US government actually sanctions and promotes insulting films and cartoons. Most of them live in countries where you can't make a move or say anything without the government's permission, so they literally don't understand the kind of freedom of speech allowed here in our country... they have lived so long under their own government's thumbs they can't imagine what it's like living any way else. Because of this it's only natural for them to assume that the US government is to blame... it's the only frame of reference they have to work with.

Artful Dodger: No.

Iamon lyme: No.

Iamon lyme: I think it shows there are a lot of hippocrates in all religions.

Bwild: Hypocrisy is not limited to religion. Christianity points out that hypocrisy is wrong, but that doesn't mean you won't find hypocrites who call themselves Christians. And it certainly doesn't mean you can't find hypocrites anywhere else. Hypocrisy one of those weird contradictory behaviors that seem to afflict almost everyone.

The only time I can remember Jesus calling someone a hypocrit was when he told the religious leaders of his day that they were putting burdons on the people they themselves will not carry...
Sound familiar? When I think of what liberal politicians want from us, the definition Jesus gave of a hypocrit always seems to come to mind.

Iamon lyme: but...since we're talkin religion...not many "true" Christians out there.
same with the Muslims,or any other religion for that matter.

when the smoke clears and the dust settles...the only ones coming out on top are the oil companies.

Bwild: [ but...since we're talkin religion...not many "true" Christians out there. ]

How can you possibly know that? Even if you don't believe in God, then by definition alone it can only be true that God knows how many true Christians there are. Even if you polled everyone in the world, and they all gave honest answers, you still wouldn't know. Who is qualified to judge all of the hearts and minds and actions of everyone?

Not everyone who calls themselves Christian are saved for Him, and not everyone who do not call themselves Christian are not saved. It's all explained in a book I think you may have heard of...

It's amazing that there are critics of the Bible, who have read it all the way through, and yet they still don't know what the Bible teaches. This isn't hypocrisy, but I can't at the moment think of what to call this. Willful ignorance?

And it doesn't matter if the source for any information on numbers is pro or con, no one but God can know this.

Bwild: It's all very simple. And you can believe it or not believe it... and believe it or not, not believing IS one of the options.

The old testament is consistent with the new testament because both talk about the same God. You are given a choice of which two entities you can serve. If you lie you serve the liar, if you deceive or are willfully misled by deceit then you serve the deceiver, and if you live to only serve yourself then you serve the entity that only serves himself. And like I said, you can choose to not believe in any of this.

What other religion gives anyone this kind of freedom to believe or not believe? Certainly not the Islamic religion. I think after more than 10 years of looking at it we have become more than well informed on their beliefs, intentions, and practices.

(V): Then why bring it up? What's the point?

Bwild: There are hypocrites in religions, politics, construction, police force, hospitals, on and on. They are everywhere.

No one could pay me enough to be a diplomat to, or even simply visit, a predominantly Islamic country. First of all I don't like to travel... if you offered me an all expense trip around the world, I might try talking you into giving me something else, but I wouldn't take the free trip. There are places in the US I wouldn't want to visit either. But I know that I would be safer anyplace in the US than in a country where I might find myself being persuaded to say a few recorded words before getting my head sliced off.

I don't have full blown aspergers, didn't even know I had it until a few years ago because it's barely detectable. That's part of the reason for my not wanting to go anywhere else. I have a hard enough time dealing with familiar surroundings, without finding myself in some hell hole with murderous thugs hungry to get get their hands on an American... and apparently any American will do.

Anyway, today I started to write a song in my head to illustrate this aversion I have to traveling... it's to the tune of "Fly Me to the Moon".


Do not fly me to the moon
I do not want to go up there
All there is are rocks and dust
No palm trees and no air

And that is allllllllll
I want to sayyyyyy
There is no more
so go away....






No, not you! You can stay.

Iamon lyme: you seem a bit perturbed. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing..just offering an observation.
the 10 commandments are a tough act to follow,imo. bible thumping hypocrits are everywhere. I dont need to be a "god" to see this.

Bwild: Fortunately, Christians are no longer under the Law. ;)

Artful Dodger: lol

Bwild: hahaha I wasn't trying to be funny. I'm being theological. ;)

Artful Dodger: but thats the funny part!

Bwild: [ the 10 commandments are a tough act to follow,imo. ]

Not just your opinion. It's also the opinion of most teachers and ministers and Bible scholars. And they would go a step further to say that it isn't just a tough act to follow, but impossible. No one can reach adulthood or the age of accountability without breaking the 10 commandments.

[ bible thumping hypocrits are everywhere. ]

So? Hypocrites can be found anywhere and everywhere, including critics of Christianity. Did you read my messages, or are you only skimming through them to find grist for your mill? There are hypocrites who thump on bible thumpers, so what exactly is your point? If I seem perturbed it may be because you've managed to ignore most of what I've said and are starting over again.

Seriously, if you are only commited to thumping on bible thumpers, then there is nothing else for me to say.

Bwild: Just for that I'm gonna pray for you and get you converted!

Iamon lyme: Stop it! Now you're sounding like me again and I'm getting confused. Or - I couldn't have said it better myself ;)

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Artful Dodger: [ Stop it! Now you're sounding like me again ]

I'm done with that. But you reminded me of something... I've been toying with the idea of intentionally sounding like you, but then I'd have to wait until you tell me if the conspiracy nuts, er, I mean theorists, are at it again. I still haven't seen much evidence of that at this board, mostly some vague references that could as easily mean something else. Oh well, I'll take what I can get.

heh heh heh *fart* heh heh heh heh... *belch*

Iamon lyme:

Artful Dodger: Are they Christian in the acts they committed, or just calling themselves Christian?

.. The terrorists that were Catholic and Protestant during the Northern Ireland troubles..

Were they Christian Art? Trying to be basic here!

(V): They weren't loving their neighbors that's for sure. Their actions weren't consistent with the teachings of the Faith.

Artful Dodger: Right, they were not. It is not consistent with Christ's teachings.

.. yet an eye for an eye is there in the Bible.

Yes, I know it could be said that it is a phrase in the OT, and Christ is of the NT. Yet the OT is part and is relied on to 'authorise' certain NT matters.. such as the coming of a Messiah, much regarding being 'gay' and the big argument over evolution.

All gone with no OT. Which contains the oral history of the Jewish people, written down. Including their wars, some notable geographic events and massacres done by the Jews.

.. The same God that Christ is of ordered, or did these massacres according to the OT.

That cannot be denied as written.. debatable if it was actually 'God'. It might just have been their justification for it all.

(V): as you know, Jesus corrected a lot of misunderstandings people had. That phrase first appeared in the Code of Hammurabi. In Jewish law it simply meant that adequate compensation should only be equal to the offense and no more (it was actually about limits.) It was not a literal statement.

Either way, you've strayed off the topic of Islam again.

Iamon lyme: " man with flatulence,should not talk in circles!"

Artful Dodger: No.. I'm just doing it in sections, doing it all in one leads to confusion and/or lots of presumptions on this board.

So, basically you are saying the phrase set limits on behaviour, and before that people were going to far, so much that compensation became revenge?

Like with the Jewish price taggers?

Bwild: I speak flatulance! Not sure about Iamon lyme