Artful Dodger: Right now I'm "effectively" retired, but I prefer to say that I'm unemployed. Depending on the outcome of the presidential election, I'll know whether or not to call myself retired or unemployed.

I think the same is true with other people. Some doctors have already retired sooner than they had planned, thanks to the added headaches of Obamacare... and some people who were thinking of going into medicine are having second thoughts. Remember reading about the so called "brain drain" during the middle of the last century? Brains were "draining" out of Europe and finding their way to the US. We may be facing our own brain drain soon... either going overseas, or essentially being redirected and absorbed (in other words, effectively lost) in our own economy.

Talking straight politics is depressing. I'll come back after the heat dies down and people here start getting goofy again. I give you know who about 1/2 day to give me a reason to jump back in... shouldn't take much longer than that.

(Go ahead, make my day!)

Iamon lyme: I'm effectively tired. Those little kiddies wear me out!

Davi Calls Out P.C. Hollywood for Abandoning Free Speech http://shar.es/uku3v via @sharethis

Iamon lyme:

> LOL (selective ignorance?) There is an abundance of historical documentation to prove otherwise. And please don't insult my intelligence by asking where... you have the same access to information as I do.

Can you please supply such documentation or links to it? Is there documentation proving the existence of Jesus outside the New Testament? Are there any Roman or Greek (or other) sources contemporary to the life of Jesus that corroborate his existence? Note that I mean contemporary and not 200 years later. If they existed, I would be the first to put them here.

Übergeek 바둑이: duh! He lives in my heart!

Übergeek 바둑이: read this book then make your points. As it is, you speak out of ignorance. http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Testament-Documents-Reliable/dp/0802822193

Artful Dodger:

> duh! He lives in my heart!

Exactly! The ONLY way one can see Jesus as a historical figure is if one has faith. Without faith the New Testament could never be considered a historical document. It is faith that makes people see the New Testament as a document that reflects true historical events. Without faith other historical sources would fail to corroborate any events described there.

Übergeek 바둑이: Actually that's not true and I was being silly. The New Testament documents are historically reliable. FF Bruce is a leading authority on the New Testament documents and he's not alone in his assessment that they are a reliable source for eye witness accounts of the life of Jesus. There is more documented evidence for the existence of Jesus as a historical figure than there is evidence for many other historical figures. It's not that the evidence isn't there; you just reject everything that's offered.

Artful Dodger:

> read this book then make your points. As it is, you speak out of ignorance. http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Testament-Documents-Reliable/dp/0802822193

I am not asking for a book written by a Christian scholar.

'Frederick Fyvie Bruce (12 October 1910 – 11 September 1990) was a Biblical scholar and one of the founders of the modern evangelical understanding of the Bible. His first book, New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? (1943), was voted by the American evangelical periodical Christianity Today in 2006 as one of the top 50 books "which had shaped evangelicals".'

I am asking for a direct literary source contemporary to Jesus that states unequivocally that he existed. There is no such source. The earliest mention outside the New testament is in a brief paragraph in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, and that as written in 93-94 AD. Many scholars disagree on the interpretation of a brief paragraph written by a rather obscure Jewish scholar in the Roman empire.

The Gospels themselves are based on one, possibly two documents written at around 75 AD. That leaves us with no contemporary sources.

Was Jesus a historical figure? Most scholars think that Jesus did exist and see sources as Josephus and Tacitus as either brief mentions of the historical Jesus, or reflections of events that those historians heard among early Christians. However, the mythology around Jesus (the virgin birth, the miracles, etc.) are considered to be non-historical (in other words, they have no concrete historical proof of their having occurred.)

Do we really believe that a man would do all those miracles and go unnoticed by all the Roman and Greek historians of the era? If somebody did all those miracles, that person would not have gone unnoticed, specially when those miracles gave rise to the dominant religion in the Roman empire. Matthew clearly states that Jesus was followed by "multitudes", and yet nobody in the Roman world noticed him enough to write anything of him? Romans noted inconsequential people, but ignored Jesus in spite of his miracles?

Artful Dodger: [ read this book then make your points... ]

There's load of evidence verifying Old Testament people and events as well. Documentation in the form of clay tablets and cylinders recording the local history of peoples and events count as documentation, as well as corroborating documentation (verification) found in nearby cultures and localities. Evidence of cities previously thought nonexistent have been unearthed within the last few years... more and more evidence in various forms are unearthed as time goes on.

It's been convenient to say in the absence of any evidence that something didn't happen or a place didn't exist, until that place or some recorded history is found. And then after evidence is found, ignoring it is what it is... willful ignorance.

By the way, the word "ignorant" is another one of those magic words liberals love to toss out... it's intended to have the same effect as words like "birther" or "conspiracy nut". Personally, I like the term "double standard"... that pretty much says it all.

I've been through a debating cycle at least twice within that last 10 years for this particular topic, and for evolution as well. Both cycles lasted for months, during which time I did a lot of research and accumulated loads of information. I don't have that information at my fingertips now, and I certainly don't have the time or interest (or desire) to repeat another cycle. Life is too short to spend trying to convince someone of something they don't want to know.

Iamon lyme: I agree. This topic has been discussed before. The atheist argument fails on so many levels. Nothing said will make any difference. So, ok Jesus is a myth. Next topic please. How about SETI? Or Sasquatch ? Lochness?

Artful Dodger: LOL Yeah, no kidding! Someone really did a bang up job of getting the funding (tax dollars?) for building radio dishes and installing monitoring equipment and paying salaries to people to monitor the monitoring equipment and etc etc and computer experts and etc etc and Joe the janitor/handyman/toilet unplugger/ window washer and etc etc... Hey, come on, it takes money to run ANY kind of operation!

Where was I? Oh yeah, and all of this for the sake of maybe picking up intelligently designed (what, intelligent design?) signals from an alien race some scientists are hoping exists. So you see, even hope costs money. You didn't really think all that hope and change crap was going to save you any money, did you? Foolish peons! Money doesn't just grow on trees ya know.

If we want to find those aliens, we had better darn well be ready to spend the money for it. We can't assume the aliens will come to us... who do we think we are, anyway? If we are going to find the aliens, any aliens, even the stupid and technologically primitive ones, then we might have to be the ones who go looking for them.

So as you can see, this has been money well spent.

Iamon lyme: Not one tax dollar.. a myth it's paid for by government money.

Just like that 47% of Americans pay no income tax, as Mitt Romney did state a few days back when stating he has no intent of appealing to them.

... but they do pay.."61% of those who pay no federal income tax do pay payroll tax at 15.3%.

Another 22% of the non-income tax-payers are elderly, according to the Ezra Klein article. If that is correct, 83% of those who do not pay income tax don't really fit Mr Romney's characterisation, except in so far as his argument is that people who don't pay income tax aren't impressed by promises of income tax cuts."

This is too good.. Be sure to check out where the "quote" came from
The Quote of the Decade:
"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America 's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America 's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that, "the buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."
~ Senator Barack H. Obama, March 2006

Iamon lyme: "It's been convenient to say in the absence of any evidence that something didn't happen or a place didn't exist, until that place or some recorded history is found. And then after evidence is found, ignoring it is what it is... willful ignorance."


but...where is this "evidence"? thats really the big issue.
talking in circles..making jokes..changing the subject...still doesnt provide ACTUAL evidence.
so please...just 1 FACT that Proves Jesus of Nazareth truley existed. I would like to see it,because I've spent many years off and on..(one whole year exclusively) trying to find just ONE fact.
Can you provide this ONE fact,without belittling?

Iamon lyme: I hate to break the news to them but there's nobody out there.

(V): It's bout 49% that don't pay Federal taxes.

Vikings: I wonder if they played that quote on MSNBC?

Articles: U.S. Government Celebrates Terrorist Who Craved to Nuke the U.S. http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/09/us_government_celebrates_terrorist_who_craved_to_nuke_the_us.html#.UFnRwIwmC4w.twitter

Bwild: [ so please...just 1 FACT that Proves Jesus of Nazareth truley existed. I would like to see it,because I've spent many years off and on..(one whole year exclusively) trying to find just ONE fact. ]

If you've put in that much time and effort and found nothing then for you the issue should be settled, shouldn't it? I think it's interesting that critics can make broad sweeping statements with nothing to back it up, but then insist I do the research and collect the information they are unable to find.

I asked Uber not to insult my intelligence by asking me where evidence can be found, because he has the same access to information as I do. He asked anyway, and so have you. As for your comments on hypocrisy and asking not to be belittled, do you think I don't know what you meant by "Bible thumpers"?

Vikings: This is actually very easy to explain. There are two Barack Obamas, one is good and the other is evil. They are identical twins, born at the same time and given the same name. One was born in Hawaii and other in Kenya (don't ask me how that happened, I don't know)

You're right about it being the qoute of the century... I didn't have a clue as to who said that until I came to the end of the quote. Seeing Barack Obamas name was like seeing the punchline to a joke.

Iamon lyme: so there are no real facts...no true evidence.

Bible thumpers was not directed at you personally.
As I stated before...it's not up to the atheist to provide the proof.
I believe we have reached a conclusion in this debate.

Bwild: I think it really depends on what constitutes evidence in your mind. That and compelling arguments for the case of the historical Jesus (not to mention His claims to being God)

mckinley: [ I've hung out with riff raff. Doesn't mean I did what they did ;) They are more interesting. ]

I've worked around people who make riff raff look very appealing. Some of them were fresh out of prison and acted like they couldn't wait to go back... apparently doing what it takes to maintain their freedom was too much to ask of them.

There are enough riff raff here for you to be entertained, and it's definitely safer hanging out with them here.

Artful Dodger: Not the same as paying no tax.. just one specific tax out of how many? Sorry but we have a straight forward system, one income tax system. Not one from the gov and another going to the local 'state'/county. Local level taxes are collected through 'council tax' (ie property rates) and any such system used to generate extra revenue.. car parking fines as an example.

Bwild: Uber said he didn't want to read any books by Christian scholars. If he includes truly impartial scholars along with them, then I'm not surprised he has found no evidence to support what is written about people and events chronicled in the Bible.

I'm not telling you what sources you should or shouldn't look at, but relying on information from people who have already made up their minds is what it is. It is selective ignorance... selectively ignoring anything that contradicts a predermined conclusion.

Iamon lyme: These guys I like to watch on youtube.. They are funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g1KhvF9nJg

No-one has been able to call them up and prove to their level of 'proof' that God, as written in the Bible .. just with Jesus, does/did exist.As written.

So much stuff was destroyed.. The Vatican has so much hidden...

I was watching some scholars on the Bible from a UK university.. on the meaning of John 3:16

Common usage is not as originally written. ... Translation problems.

Bwild: http://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

just offering as an interesting read

(V): The reason it's mentioned is due to the liberal claim that the "rich" don't pay their fair share of income taxes. We know they pay more taxes as they buy more things and more expensive things at that. But the comparison being offered has to do with federal income taxes. On that we know it's a fact that nearly 50% do not pay federal income taxes. So clearly there is a problem with the "fair share" as it applies to the bottom 50%. They contribute nothing but suck off the governments tit endlessly.

Artful Dodger: *** sigh *** "the governments"

I asked a point of reference. Us UK people can get confused by the myriad of tax systems in the USA.


... How many different taxes at any level may a person of working age pay in the USA .. as an average?

You have Federal Income tax, state payroll tax?? Now.. this is want to know. straight info on HOW MANY fingers are there in the pie.

(V): Depends on where you live!
There's federal income taxes
Some states have income taxes (I live in a state that doesn't)

Some states have sales taxes (I live in a state that doesn't)

Then of course there are "Property Taxes" (Mostly to towns/cities ? But I rent, so I don't know how it goes, honestly. Maybe some goes to the State?)

And then also there is registering your car - some of that goes to state, some to town/city.

And of course any local fines, etc, which of course is quite avoidable.

But again. The thing AD is talking about with that stuff about 49% has to deal ONLY with the Federal Income taxes.

It's ridiculous that anyone can say the "rich" don't pay their fair share, when half the country pays NO federal income taxes

(V): Yeah, what Rod said.

rod03801: exactly

rod03801: But that is only one tax, and the rich have many many ways of skipping paying tax that our bent accountant firms drool over. This is what is generally meant when not paying their fair share.

N' when some American companies are being given money to stay in business.

By the looks of it, you all pay taxes in some form, to someone.

(V): The rich pay the bulk of taxes. Around 70%

(V): The quote, and the controversy is ONLY about Federal Income tax. No one else is talking about the other taxes.

Artful Dodger:

(So clearly there is a problem with the "fair share" as it applies to the bottom 50%. They contribute nothing but suck off the governments tit endlessly.)

That is a bit unfair to suggest my grandparants are sucking off the goverments tit after they paid into the system for over 50 years each...

rod03801: Ok.. It would be (using my accountant head) a fair statement if only one tax existed. You yourself have told me this is not the case.

It would be fair if the the fed gov is the only giver of 'gifts' and the setting thereof. I've heard this is not the case. It would be fair if most 'rich' people just paid fed income tax. this is not the case.

Therefore the statement is in itself misleading.

Marshmud: You're right. I should be more specific. It really should only apply to able bodied people (and there are plenty of them). I don't have a problem with people who've supported the system as your grandparents and now they are getting exemptions.

Artful Dodger: Sometimes its not fair to blame the taxpayer for what he doesn't pay. Its the system we have. Alot of what we do today with our social programs are not intended for 2012. For example my grandparents are 100 and 102. SS was not designed to pay benefits for 35-40 years. I was looking at a pay check of hers from 1944 when she was "Rosie the Riveter" at Martin Marietta (Now Lockheed) in Baltimore Maryland. She paid about 25 cents a week into SS. Now she only gets over 1000 per month.

Our tax system sucks. When I was self employed I depended on "cash jobs" to make ends meet. Many in the building trade do so. With our tax system it seemed that I was out to cheat uncle sam just to get by. Just on self emplyment tax (ss tax) I paid 15.3 on every buck I made. So I could of made 20,000 in a year (near min wage) and still paid 3,630.00 alone and no way to deduct from that amount. I may of paid no federal income (FICA) but I paid a lot of tax.....

I'm thankful I depended on the mattress bank of america. No earnings on my money but my parents taught me to depend on myself not the goverment. Today people take advantage of a system that is broke and most know they can do so. Lawyers even advertise to help you get disability benefits....Blame the politicians not the minimum wage earner.

Marshmud: I doubt anyone considers anyone's grandparents as being the problem ppl.

Marshmud: Yes, and the strategy of the Democratic party (at least the most left end of it anyway) is to get more and more ppl dependent on the government, as they are most likely to keep voting them in, since they end up depending on the handouts.

It's sickening.

I too was brought up to depend on MYself.

Marshmud: I'm actually not blaming the taxpayer. I'm really speaking to the dishonesty in the message of "fair share." Even if the rich paid more, it wouldn't amount to much. Not in the big picture of things.

We need less government and far less spending. What we do spend needs to be spent wisely. And the tax system needs to be completely redone. It's not fair that's for sure but it's not fair for all of us. Too many regulations and rules that are imposible to keep up with. I don't know about the flat tax but something has to change.

And for the record, I do believe we have to accomodate those in true need and we have to have safeguards for those than struggle. But 50% is a huge number of people and in my view it should be much lower. Most people in the "poor" category have two or more tv's, cell phones, own a home, and at least one car! Seems like there's the "poor" and then there's the truly poor.

The Jawa Report: French Mag Pictures Mohammad's Junk (Update: It Begins ...) http://shar.es/uikFG via @sharethis

rod03801: Of the 47% that pay no tax, 70% of them are the working poor...17% are on SS. All I meant was that welfare folks are not bankrupting our country and I'm tired of each party blaming each other. The democratic process now is like this board. Blame the other guy without a solution yourself.

You can't even comment on this board without someone complaining.

Artful Dodger: I agree Dan. I'm tired of spending my hard earned cash on ground beef while I watch The person in line in front of me use food stamps to get steak and shrimp while their kids have Reeboks and designer clothes and watch them leave in a new car.....