(V): You are moralizing, and not really saying anything about the legality of business practices. Technically, it's illegal to have an underground economy that avoids regulations paperwork and taxation, but when government makes it impractical to do business legally then underground economies will thrive, according to the same principles of supply and demand that have proven to work in sanctioned business practices.

When government limits it's mandate to ONLY governing, and keeps it's hands off business except when laws are violated, then those underground economies shrink to accomodate already established illegal activities such as prostitution and drugs and illegal gun running (Fast and Furious)... in other words, the "thou shalt not steal" sort of laws designed to protect people. But if government gets itself involved in truely illegal activities as we've seen in petty dictatorships, then it's anyones guess what can happen next... and it's usually not anything good, except maybe for the petty dictator.

The only reason our nation (as well as yours) was able to become very prosperous as quickly as it did was because there were enough people acting on solid moral principles. You might want to believe it was for other reasons, but the connection between moral values and a nations safety and prosperity has been proven by history time after time after time... which to my mind means after several years of letting ourselves go, so to speak, we have put ourselves in the position of losing more ground than we have gained.

The last four years has been like a doctor treating a guy with an cut on his finger by breaking his legs and cracking open his skull. I think Obama has easily broken all past records of how much damage one president can do in four short years... and he couldn't have done it without the help of our major news organizations and the Democratic party machine... a puppet cannot stand up and walk around and mouth words all by itself.

Artful Dodger: 45 people? Did they have to bus people in from other states?

Iamon lyme: So if a company through lack of regulation supplied you with contaminated water you'd be ok with it? It's happened in the past in the USA!!!

"The only reason our nation (as well as yours) was able to become very prosperous as quickly as it did was because there were enough people acting on solid moral principles."

Not really.. alot was at the end of a gun and/or bayonet. Taking lands and resources that did not belong to our nations based on the principle that it was their for the taking. Millions of natives died through the march of God fearing Christians out to make as much profit for as little cost as they could.

... It's recorded in records.. Resources to the civilised world... guns and bullets to keep control in foreign lands.

eg.. If the companies exploiting Cuba had not done so with such disregard for the locals... Would Castro have risen to power so dramatically?

"and it's usually not anything good, except maybe for the petty dictator."

So why has our nations supported so many in return for ore and crude oil?

(V): "So why has our nations supported so many in return for ore and crude oil?"

If dependence on foreign oil is so bad then why do liberals want us to remain dependent? We have enough untapped oil here to become independent of any foreign oil. So what's the story here (V), are you for the liberal agenda or against it?

"If the companies exploiting Cuba had not done so with such disregard for the locals... Would Castro have risen to power so dramatically?"

So Castro was actually revolting against US companies... but if aliens from outer space had gotten involved to protect US companies like Hasbro and Pepsi Cola then Castro would have still revolted and taken over the US securities and exchange commission's oversight committee chairmanship and positioned himself to go on from there to rule Cuba.

"... It's recorded in records.. Resources to the civilised world... guns and bullets to keep control in foreign lands."

So I guess that means you are for gun control, to limit individual gun ownership so as to insure foreign forces will meet with no significant resistance from the locals. What do you care if the locals are armed and able to protect themselves? How does that impact you, or in any way create for you an intolerable impaction with no relief in sight?

(V): "...various ways to escape paying taxes. Legal one... that's the joke. It's legal to avoid paying taxes if you are rich.. something a ordinary man does not have the ability to do."

The ordinary man isn't required to pay 40% to 70% of his income in taxes. The ordinary man can escape paying this higher tax rate by simply not being wealthy. So one way to look at this is that NOT being wealthy is in effect a tax break for the ordinary man, because he is soaked at a lower rate than his wealthy counterpart.

"But please tell me how this free enterprise with no rules works?"

Other than yourself, no one said anything about free enterprise with no rules.

"What safeties are there to protect us from fraud, lies, death in your world?"

What safeties did you have in mind, or are you asking because you don't know? As far as safeties to protect you from death... well, don't be a klutz and watch where you are going, avoid fatty foods and don't drink too much alcohol or smoke too much weed or watch too much porno or tell ANY woman those pants make your butt look fat. Also, you should occasionally look up and watch out for falling anvils and pianos, drink plenty of fluids before going to bed at night and throw salt over your shoulder if you spill any and try not to break any mirrors (that one actually falls under the heading of don't be a klutz) and take two aspirin but don't call me in the morning... there are many other precautions you should take, but you are going to die someday anyway, and your chances of being raptured away grow slimmer by the day, so seeing as how I weary of my own ramblings I'll see you tomorrow if you live long enough to get there...

Iamon lyme: the story is that if your country relied purely on internal stocks you'd run out of cheap oil quickly. Your country consumes more than it can provide itself on a reasonably sustainable level. Everyone knows that I thought.. maybe you are an exception

"So Castro was actually revolting against US companies."

Who were using Cuba as a virtual slave state.. I presume you don't want to face upto that fact by your reply.

"So I guess that means you are for gun control, to limit individual gun ownership so as to insure foreign forces will meet with no significant resistance from the locals."

No..... I was commentating on how much of the 18-19th century land gains were gained through taking lands. Especially in Africa.

"The ordinary man isn't required to pay 40% to 70% of his income in taxes."

wow... you really think people at the top do that... if you do, I'd have to say you are very naive.

"Other than yourself, no one said anything about free enterprise with no rules."

So.. what regulations would you keep? Be clear for once if you can.

"What safeties did you have in mind, or are you asking because you don't know?"

Not being sold products that are underweight, false advertising, knowing that the goods we buy are upto standard... simple things like that.

"I weary of my own ramblings"

ditto, it'd be nice if you dropped some of the ham acting

Artful Dodger: they were all at the cannabis rally!!

(V): "Other than yourself, no one said anything about free enterprise with no rules."

[ So.. what regulations would you keep? Be clear for once if you can. ]

Very well, I will clearly state for you here and now that I said nothing about "free interprise with no rules". You added that bit about "with no rules" to it... that did not come from me, it came from you. Do not expect me to continue commenting on your responses to straw men. When you are able to read without adding your own bits here and removing things there, maybe then we can have an adult conversation.
Maybe...

(V): [ the story is that if your country relied purely on internal stocks you'd run out of cheap oil quickly. Your country consumes more than it can provide itself on a reasonably sustainable level. Everyone knows that I thought.. maybe you are an exception ]

If I was a liberal then yes, I would be an exception to the rule of not telling anyone about how much oil we could be getting from our own sources.

And yes, all of the oil (every bit of it) in the whole wide world would eventually run out sometime in the future, but not nearly as soon as we have been told. After liberals restricted the drilling of oil and the building of new oil refineries in MY country, they then pointed to dependence on foreign oil as their reason for promoting other energy sources... many of which would be coming online in the future anyway as technology continues to naturally progress. But instead of letting free market forces and the natural progression of technology run it's course, liberals want to be in control of that process themselves.

However, in the process of gaining control over this for themselves, they have managed (as they always seem to do) to gum up the works and slow down that very progress they wish to take credit for. They can't be content with simply letting it happen, they feel they must make it happen.

I don't know where you get your information, but I suspect it's from sources commited to not telling the whole story and for reasons I've already explained. The US has over the years discovered enough untapped oil to live very comfortably and for a very long time, without needing to import oil from anwhere else. The reason we are as dependent as we are on foreign oil are the roadblocks and restrictions liberals have put into place. If those restrictions are lifted, along with restrictions against building new oil refineries, we could become just as independent as any other country that does not restrict itself from tapping into oil in areas that belong to them.

Iamon lyme: so is this the giant pot calling a small kettle black thing? Because you seem to have many preconceptions about what people who don't think like you think. ... stereotyping it's called.

Now.. what regulations were you referring to in this...

"Technically, it's illegal to have an underground economy that avoids regulations paperwork and taxation, but when government makes it impractical to do business legally then underground economies will thrive"

"The US has over the years discovered enough untapped oil to live very comfortably and for a very long time, without needing to import oil from anwhere else."

Ok.. recent developments (since I last saw the figures) in oil drilling (fracking) are going to increase production. Yet... you still have a shortfall now of over 7 million barrels per day, estimates for production increase (Citibank forecast) say that by 2020 you could be producing 13-15 million barrels a day. Still at current usage levels far below what your country consumes.

.... if it wasn't for the cost of crude going up, it wouldn't be profitable to use fracking.. crude must stay over $75 a barrel to make it worthwhile. Yet one concern is mentioned.. will it cause contaminated water from the fracking to enter the ground water that ends up in your taps?

Is this ok? Do you concur?? Or are liberals (whatever that means to you) going to get blamed for everything?

polls are showing the democrats taking an early lead......well at least until the republicans get off work! lol

Bwild: Oh noooo they get the job of representing the tea party .. !! .. sorry Republicans when it comes to blocking the Democrats.

.. payments for services going offshore to hide the money trail

(V): I wonder if other countries should send people to the USA to monitor voter suppression

sad, but true

The Col: Aye. Some weird manure happening from some reports I've read.

(V): Soldiers are rolling in their graves , they gave their lives for the right to vote

(V): it was a joke. I'm none of the above. the independent party almost got my vote,but for immigration issues I disagree with.
you nor the Col. really have no clue as to what is really happening in the U.S.
Lamon hit the nail on the head...but like most sheep...you two follow the media to slaughter. it is a sad day in American history imo...the only upside will be the deletion of obamacare.

Bwild: I bet I am more informed of what's going on in the USA than half the voters, at least.Very few pay attention, I do.So what is "really happening" in the USA?

The Col: you wouldnt listen if I told you.
but in case you do...
people are starving. no jobs..no unemployment..banks stealing homes by the thousands every day.
food pantry's swamped with fat people..standing in line for their weekly hand-out.
crime is out of control. best business going is the penal system. politicians write more stupid laws...more people going to prisons...
food,insurance,housing,fuel,etc...all on the rise.
these things have gotten WORSE not better,over the last 4 years.
romney is not the answer...but a better choice than obama. Gary Johnson is really the best choice imo...but his stand on letting immigrants over-run us is just crazy.

I really dont think anyone has the answers...but big business funded dems and repubs....got to go!!!

is Statesmen not politicians

Bwild: I agree with you to a degree.How Obama was expected to turn things around in 4 after an unprecedented collapse is unreasonable, but understandably seized upon by the Republicans for political purposes.Many of the issues you mention are under state administration, Presidents have less control than people think.Is Obama the answer? I am less sure of that now than I was last election , but frankly my support of Obama is based more on my dislike of Romney than it is support of Obama.I don't like people(or candidates) who will say whatever suits the audience, that shows a lack of character, and character matters.I also see who Romney is in bed with politically, and it scares the maple syrup out of me.I could see myself supporting a Republican one day, if they come back from the cliff of extremism, hell, I vote conservative in Canada, but this is not the Republican party of years gone by, they cheer against the country in hopes of re election, and that stinks like treason.

The Col: So did many women from the era of suffragettes.

(V): Well, Americans have surrendered the right to walk the high road in regards to voters rights IMO.The fraud excuse is a joke, as the video where the Republican stating the id laws will give Romney Ohio points out.

Bwild: Hey.. It's been known to be a joke this side of the pond since the 80's

Don't worry dude, we have the problem of what are the losers going to do every election.. Most of the time it's to slag off the party in power, while not really having a clue what to do. Half the promises get dropped being "too expensive" or suddenly 'complicated'.

Actually Obamacare for all your perceived faults in it, had one good point. The end of most uninsured people only getting treated via A&E (ER to you) ..... a rather costly system. Preventive care being cheaper you know.

"you nor the Col. really have no clue as to what is really happening in the U.S.
Lamon hit the nail on the head...but like most sheep...you two follow the media to slaughter."

Dude.. You are a young country.. we've been there ... had our civil wars.. decades of unrest before and after.. industrial revolution.. we started it.. had to give up an empire. Lived under a cold war, been told "they" are the enemy.. when all "they" were.. just poor souls like everyone else trying to live. Puritans.. we had em' Oliver Cromwell is famous for leading the above mentioned civil war... They didn't last.

Here in the UK.. I'm a moderate.

Bwild: Is to limit lobbying.

The Col: Voter ID soon.. regardless, is a lame duck.

Bwild: [ I really dont think anyone has the answers...but big business funded dems and repubs....got to go!!! ]

I hate to say this, especially right after you backed me up (I did appreciate that) but I don't believe we would be better off with a third party alternative to Democrats and Republicans. When I was thinking of switching parties I first considered registering as an Independent, so I wouldn't feel I was limiting myself to supporting any particular party. I decided to switch to registering as a Republican not because it was perfect, but because it was the party that came the closest to representing my point of view. But as far as big business or any other group (or individual) who gives money to one side or the other is concerned, if the Independent party grew to the point where it could become a serious contender then it would have to accept money as well just to stay in the game. I'm not going to say "sad but true", because to my way of thinking it's just a fact of life... like paying for groceries or anything else you want to have. Actually, it's more like an investment, because it's not perfectly clear even to the investor how it might benefit him or not. Not everyone gives in the hope of a personal kickback, and it's not always some plus/minus game these people are playing when they donate to a campaign. The benefits many contributors are hoping for are intangible rather than tangible... benefits like a better economic environment for working families and individuals, where they have a chance to get ahead instead of only working to not lose what they have.

Personally, I won't throw millions of dollars to anyones campaign because I don't have millions of dollars to spare... if a bum walks up to me on the street and asks for spare change, all I can do is to tell him...
"Well gosh, if I just had a few more million dollars to my name I could spare a little change, but I don't know how long I'll be able to hang on to what I have. Look me up after the election, then I'll know if I can help you out or not."


I've been up all night, so if there is a point I'm trying to make then I'm afraid it's up to you to figure out what it is... because I've already distracted myself into wandering into some other area of the Twilight Zone...

On the up side though, I believe I now know what Darth Evaders problem has been all this time. He just needs to get more sleep, a LOT more sleep... a hibernation type ultra REM sleep.

(V): The influence on these politiciens by lobbyists is a MAJOR issue, toss them all out along with the nameless SUPERPACS

The Col: Limits on campaign funds.

(V): re: Limits on campaign funds."

And donate 10% of every dollar spent on the campaign to paying down the deficit.It won't make much of an impact, but at least it would be money well spent

We should leave what is left of the earth's oil where it is. At the same time, we should be looking at technologies that may enable us to replace the missing oil with a syntheic whale-like blubber substitute because we can't afford to kill any more whales if they are needed for other things in the future.

Don't conservatives know anything about science? Underground reserviors of crude oil lubricate the earth's crust and keep earthquake/volcanic activity to a minimum. The reason for startling increases of both earthquake and volcanic activity over the past 50 years can be directly linked to how much oil we have already sucked up from under the earth's crust.

The natural lubricating properties of oil over the past 5 gazillion years has stabilized the earth's crust by minimizing friction between tectonic plates, causing the surface of the earth (where most of us live) to become less volcanic and gassy than it was many eons ago before we was here. If we remove most or all of that oil, we will wish we only had to worry about global warming... followed by global cooling, with intermittent periods of mild temperatures and occasional precipitation.

This could be from lack of sleep, but I could swear I'm seeing before me very eyes a shift in "ideology" from some who not long ago were approving of voter fraud, but now seem to be disapproving of voter fraud. There must a reason for this dramatic shift in attitude... whatever could that reason be?



Okay, yes, I admit it... that WAS a rhetorical question.

*</:op

(V): [ Now.. what regulations were you referring to in this...
"Technically, it's illegal to have an underground economy that avoids regulations paperwork and taxation, but when government makes it impractical to do business legally then underground economies will thrive" ]

You really do have a one track mind. I wasn't referring to regulations nor rules nor off shore accounts nor anything else you seem to wish limiting the conversation to.

I was merely referring to a fact of life. Underground economies can and do exist, either because they deal in illegal activities (theft, drug and gun running, prostitution, extortion, etc.) or because their existence is a natural reaction to over taxation and over regulation that restrict rather than encourage otherwise acceptable free trade practices. My focus is NOT on what are generally accepted to be illegal activities, but rather on naturally emergent underground economies that come about due to heavy handed governmental interference in day to day LEGITIMATE business activities.

If this is confusing, then all you really need to take from this is (and here I go quoting myself again) --->

---> "...when government makes it impractical to do business legally then underground economies will thrive."

Again, I am NOT referring to any particular rule or regulation. All I am saying is "...when government (any government) makes it impractical (for private citizens) to do business legally (and by impractical I mean difficult to the point of not being able to effectively engage in business) then underground economies will thrive."

If there is a need that cannot be supplied, or supplied well, through a government sanctioned (government approved) economy, then usually what happens is an underground (not government approved) economy will naturally emerge.

That was my point. It had nothing to do with any particular rule or regulation... nor did it have anything to do with aliens from outer space, nor the Easter Bunny nor Santa Claus nor the one religion on this planet that bothers you so much you feel compeled to rag endlessly on and on about it even though but especially if it has nothing at all to do with what is being discussed.

preserve us!

4 more years of unrestrained borrowing. The US economy will be in ruins by the end of it. Get your money offshore whist you still can.

snowleopard:

The stock market reacted by tanking. Here comes a rise in the debt ceiling, more borrowing, another stimulus, more government jobs, more printing of money, rising energy prices, more regulations, and for many who opposed Obama, big time paybacks. For those that supported him, rewards.

One solution for those who are unhappy with the election results, move to Colorado.

A powerful argument against abortion EVEN in the case of a rape.

Iamon lyme: Like what? An example that gives weight to your argument would be nice. Otherwise it's just a lonnnnggg sound bite.

eg advertisers on torrent sites designed to illegally share copyrighted material. The companies advertising are 100% legit, yet they are supporting pirating. I'm not talking about sharing a little music... but movies, software and games. Which many companies are looking to have blocked and downloaders, etc in court.

Another could be the illegality of marijuana here in the UK. It is illegal to possess or grow or sell it.. yet 100% legit UK companies are allowed to sell the seeds as 'souvenirs' or 'ornaments'... even in shops on the high street.

.. being a prostitute on the streets is not illegal, johns get arrested but not the women... Yet it's illegal to run a boudoir.

It can be confusing how the law works. Sometimes they do get it wrong, or as I've shown above contradict itself in it's application.

See, examples can be found.

Artful Dodger: Are they going to finally be the ones to save the federal and state governments spending valuable time and resources on busting pot heads? The stuff people are trying instead of to be 'lawful' is really bad manure from the news reports... ie K2.

It'd save on valuable prison space for real criminals!!

Interesting to be watching Fox news online and why they thought Romney lost. Doug Schoen and his mate in the studio talking to a former republican congressman. Romney went too far right in his stance to win, even Ryan was a mistake. The branding that the republican party has adopted is dirt.. even Murdoch has damaged the GOP name.

... and they've being saying so for 18 months.

Well.. Fox news agrees with me... strange!!

If Mitt had been as he was as a governor of a state where he introduced universal care.. ... ...

... he might of won.

An election worker in Oregon is facing a criminal investigation for allegedly altering multiple ballots to benefit Republican candidates.

In a press release on Monday, Clackamas County spokesperson Tim Heider said that 55-year-old Deanna Swenson had been "relieved of duty immediately after the alleged ballot tampering was discovered."

Swenson, who was registered as a Republican, was accused of filling in a Republican straight ticket on ballots where voters did not specify a choice.

Contacted by Willamette Week, Swenson tearfully insisted that it was "only the two" ballots that had been altered.

The Oregon Department of Justice began an investigation last week after an elections official reportedly observed ballots being altered.

"At this point, it is unclear how many ballots the employee at issue had access to, or what will be done with those ballots," the sheriff's office said on Monday.

At a Monday emergency meeting, officials in Clackamas County announced that the altered ballots would not be counted. Since ballots were anonymous, disenfranchised voters would not be given a chance to re-cast their votes.

Swenson has worked in elections since at least 2000, according to the Clackamas County spokesperson.

Blue Oregon's Kari Chisholm reported that the Oregon City woman's Facebook page indicated she "liked" various conservative personalities, candidates and organizations including the Republican National Committee, The Tea Party, Paul Ryan VP, the National Republican Senatorial Committee (NRSC), Ann Romney and Fox News.

If convicted of a Class C felony for ballot tampering, Swenson could face five years in prison and a fine of up to $125,000

The Col: I hope the silly woman just gets a slap on the wrist. She's more stupid than malicious.

(V): This time she got caught, she has been in a position to commit this fraud since 2000 apparently

The Col: .. if proven, that's different. Community service and a fine time.

(V): Again this is an issue Republicans like to point the finger at Democrats for perpetuating , but as usual they seem to be the ones committing the crime.Standing on that pedestal can be daunting