The Usurper:He balanced the budget because the Republicans controlled congress.  They wouldn't let him spend all that surplus money. 

Obama's economic plan will go the way of Carter. 

Artful Dodger: Funny, they had no problem letting Bush spend it. And our economy is in far worse shape now than it was under Carter. Can Obama make it better? Very doubtful, because he won't address the core issues. Fiscal Conservatives should be impressed neither with Obama nor Bush nor Reagan, nor Nixon, nor Johnson, etc. I don't see how anyone can believe we are represented by either party, whether in Congress or in the Oval Office.

"Thinking people sometimes have intellectually honest differences of opinion, and often examine themselves critically. Unthinking people have no intellectual honesty and precious little self-insight."

The Usurper: Bush is not the point.  Historical facts are historical facts.  Clinton was kept in check by the Republican congress.  Period.  And Clinton lifted the lid on the banks.  He's the one that opened the pandora's box and it began with him.  Others are responsible too but he began the whole mess. It's history.  It's clearly a fact and can't be disputed.  Bush has nothing to do with the point.  1999.  Bush wasn't president then. 

Tues.. where is that door?? Please.. where there is no man.. where a female can sit and sip margaritas in peace.. without politics and major mind stuff?? LOL

ScarletRose: I think she's already gone through it. Something about being gone with the wind...lol But one can sip margaritas and discuss politics! Indeed, it is often required.

Artful Dodger: Trust me, I'm not defending Clinton. I know how much harm he did to the economy. But the budget was balanced during his administration...and without his cooperation, it couldn't have happened. If you prefer to think the Republican Congress muscled him, that's your prerogative. Again, I refer you to history. They didn't likewise "muscle" Bush. And Bush is as much a part of the point as is Clinton, and Reagan, etc. Narrow political boundaries hardly begin to address our predicament.

The Usurper:AGain, Bush has nothing to do with the question I was addressing.  It had ONLY to do with Clinton.  It's true that there was a Republican majority in Congress.  It's true that they made it very difficult, if not impossible for Clinton to go against their will.  They controlled the congress.  He had to tailor things to suit them or nothing could get done.  And it's also true that Clinton began the banking deregulation.  He convinced the republicans to go along with him, and they did.  They are at fault for this whole mess too.  But as I said, the question I was addressing had only to do with Clinton.  Bush isn't in the picture.

Artful Dodger: A Quote from your link to the study:

Swanson thinks the trend could continue for up to 30 years. But he warned that it's just a hiccup, and that humans' penchant for spewing greenhouse gases will certainly come back to haunt us.

"When the climate kicks back out of this state, we'll have explosive warming," Swanson said. "Thirty years of greenhouse gas radiative forcing will still be there and then bang, the warming will return and be very aggressive."

From National Geographic:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1206_041206_global_warming.html

Global Warming:  It's a cycle.  Been here before, be here again.  Humans should take care of the earth but cow farts cause more green house gasses than anything man does.  Eat a cow and save the earth. 

Artful Dodger: lol Those 2,500 scientists don't agree with you. But what do they know? ;o)

Artful Dodger: P.S. I love eating cow but some people have a cow over it.

The Usurper: They don't know jack.  And Jack says they are full of

Artful Dodger: I knew Jack. Jack was a friend of mine. Etc. lol

The Usurper:
  He had a nasty last name.  Crappy one if you know what I mean. 

I blame the democrats for the war in Iraq.  

Artful Dodger: If you want to know the truth, I think a chance at real democracy (i.e., the republic) died at his death. That was when the Military-Industrial-Complex, that Eisenhower warned us about, asserted its clandestine rule.

Artful Dodger: If you recognize someone OUGHT to be blamed, that's a step forward. :o)

Are the scientists and economists who ask these questions just a
fringe group, outside the scientific mainstream? Not at all. A 2003
survey of 530 climate scientists in 27 countries, conducted by Dennis
Bray and Hans von Storch at the GKSS Institute of Coastal Research in
Germany, found

• 82 percent said global warming is happening, but only

• 56 percent said it’s mostly the result of human causes, and only

• 35 percent said models can accurately predict future climate conditions.

http://www.heartland.org/NewYork08/newyork08.html

Hardly consensus. 


I tell ya, it's cow farts! 

"there
has been no net global warming since 1998.

"significant
new peer-reviewed research has cast even more doubt on the hypothesis
of dangerous human-caused global warming."

Although some
blame global warming for seemingly
everything, according to others higher temperatures will increase
the amount of land that we can use to grow food, it will improve
people's health, and increase biological diversity.

I love being right about everything. 

The Usurper:I've always recognized that someone had to be blamed.  I just start with the obvious one:  democrats, and go from there. 

Artful Dodger: "I just start with the obvious one: democrats, and go from there."

I'm still waiting for the last phrase in your statement to kick in. :o)

Bernice:  I have a puppet named Bosley Bunny and he's always getting in trouble for the things he says.  He's been banned in the library for a while.  It's funny, but AD is a lot like that little Bosley puppet and for some reason, I feel his presence tonight. 

Bernice: I love it when AD is right, too. That's why I have so much love stored up, just waiting...... ;o)

The Usurper:Let me help you kick it in 

The Usurper: hahahaha............

Artful Dodger: Those are interesting links & I'll admit there's some question about the whole thing, and some merit to the counter-position. One small complaint I have.....the font isn't big enough so it's hard for me to click on them. lol

The Usurper:If we killed all the cows of the world, we could all drive huge SUVs!  And Gore could keep his jets and huge house.  But then he'd be out of a job as propaganda minister for the environmentalists so it's best we breed the cows, eat them, and continue to let them fart us all out of existence.  However there is good news, science will likely harnass cow farts into a usable energy source. 

Artful Dodger: Ok, here's a shot at a jumpstart. Say it with me....not only Democrats but also REPUBLICANS have gotten us into this mess! There, you can say it. And let's take it a step further...not only Democrats but also REPUBLICANS are endangering our freedoms, violating the Constitution, and generally interests alien to the common citizen. There, you can say it! Kick that door down.

The Usurper:
  It's like my hero Bill O'Reilly says.  Even if global warming isn't caused by humans, don't be pinheads.  Keep the earth clean.  Don't pollute.  Be responsible.  You gotta love that kind of thinking.  Why add to the problems of pollution?  Bill says clean it up and do all you can to keep the earth healthy.  Good advice.  But the environmentalists won't have any of that.  They want to punnish big business even if they aren't responsible for any polution.  Robert Kennedy jr is the worst.  He's a radical nut if ever there was one.  He's truly wacked.  I think he smoked too much pot in his college days and is still on a high. 

Artful Dodger: Big business IS responsible for most of the pollution, the stripping of the earth, etc. I understand what O'Reilly means. He blames the small guy. What is new?

The Usurper:I expect stupidity from the democrats and they never disappoint.  But you're right.  The Republicans have dished out plenty of stupidity too.  Case in point is the rush to bail out the banks.  All idiots.  Let the banks fail.  My bank has lots of money cuz they didn't lend to people that had no ability to pay!  My home is paid off!  Not everyone was being stupid.  Bush lost my respect in his final years and the bank bailout was the final straw.  What a bunch of morons.  Billions gone and no one can account for much of it.  The economy is worse, and they are asking for yet more money.  Let them all fail!  Give money to the banks that are succeeding!  They know how to manage money!

The Usurper:I keep telling you it's the cows.  And no, O'Reilly doesn't blame the small guy.  He puts the blame where it belongs.  When corporations pollute, he's on them like....can't say that in here but it flies and is attracted to brown stuff. 

Artful Dodger: Ok, some consistency begins to emerge. Thank you. Let's look at Vietnam, for example. Nixon is rightly blamed for not ending it quickly enough. But Johnson, the corrupt Democrat, is the one who escalated it to full-scale war to begin with. Guilt spreads across the board, for many issues. Thus, my contention that we're watching Good Cop/Bad Cop smoke screens to keep us entertained while the guy in the shadows steals the loot.

The Usurper:Good analogy.  Johnson was a horrible President.  He is responsible for the deaths of thousands of young men in the armed services.  He knew we couldn't win, wouldn't win, and he escalated the war anyway.  Then he lied to the troops about our war effort and winning possibilities.  He was only trying to save face.  What an ass.

We keep winding up here, at the close of each day. But who knows (sinister pipe organ here) where the P-Board will lead us tomorrow.....

As always, enjoyable. Sleep well cuz I'll be coming back loaded for bear. :o)

The Usurper: I've used up my copy and paste privleges for the night anyway.    g'nite my antagonist friend  I'll set you straight someday. 

Artful Dodger: They over here changed the tax laws which affected the poor more then the rich. Brown was forces by the public uproar to amend the policy so that the poor did not lose out so much.

The America you know is in trouble, he's trying to fix it. Sure that might mean an increase in taxes in the short term, but TANSTAFL!!

If he fails, then your country will be in a bigger mess, even if the Repub's get in, it'll take a while for any new ideas or policies to come into effect. That's not a good idea, which may result in a longer recovery period.

And I don't see the problem with properly organised and regulated abortion. Better that then back street jobs like in the old days which resulted in baby and mother dying.

And to blame is ALL your governments that have refused or plain well couldn't be bothered to introduce proper regulation of your financial system.

Gordon Brown over here is facing a grilling over such lack of regulation, especially after we had a similar incident in the 80's (ie Black Monday) in which it was lack of regulation in the financial market and lack of regulation in certain aspects of the 'buying a house' market (guzumping [sp]) that caused the downfall back then. Also it must be noted that back then a boom system of fiscal policy was being used and like now.. the bubble burst.

How many times do we have suffer before the lessons are learnt?

Czuch: So if Bin Laden was not responsible for 911, who is?

Czuch: when have we had a logical government ever?? Politics is not logical, it is a matter of opinion and belief. You've already stated that you are not entirely logical when it comes to thinking (re instinct aka gut feeling) so why presume our politicians are any different?

The Usurper: So if Israel has a high level of spying in the USA, then from past knowledge of how certain aspects of spying work.. It would be fair to say some of your 'leaders' are being bribed, blackmailed, or if they are sympathetic.. basically working for Israel and not the USA.

"Also, a group of Israeli "art students," later discovered to be spies, were seen videotaping the planes striking the WTC from the top of a van on the New Jersey side of the Hudson...taping & cheering.

If that is true, then there needs to be a full investigation of 911 ASAP.

And I would insist that all people giving evidence have lie detectors attached to them... knowing that many that would be called are use to lying and can do so very well.

Artful Dodger: It's inconsistent.....

It says..... "Following a 30-year trend of warming, global temperatures have flatlined since 2001 despite rising greenhouse gas concentrations, and a heat surplus that should have cranked up the planetary thermostat."

and then.... "This current cooling doesn't have one."

Flatlined or cooling, which is it?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Then.....

"How does this square with temperature records from 2005-2007, by some measurements among the warmest years on record?"

and .... "When added up with the other four years since 2001, Swanson said the overall trend is flat,"

This to me confirms that the weather HAS got warmer over the last 3 years, also that misusing stats doesn't work. It'd be more accurate to use the 2008 temp figures to see how the current trend is going. Averaging out doesn't always give an accurate answer when dealing with trends.

saeco: Israel has interests in keeping the USA on it's side re UN resolutions, etc. Just think of the CIA and how it's worked over the last 50 years or so, or the KGB, and other organizations related to Intelligence. Our British Intelligence use to pass on info to Loyalists in Northern Ireland re IRA supporters or activists that they wanted removed.... The Loyalists would then kill these people.

"thats just ludacris.. feel free to convince me of the opposite."

Ok, this is what I've found on the matter so far......
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2002/05/07/students/index.html

"May 7, 2002 | In January 2001, the security branch of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency began to receive a number of peculiar reports from DEA field offices across the country. According to the reports, young Israelis claiming to be art students and offering artwork for sale had been attempting to penetrate DEA offices for over a year. The Israelis had also attempted to penetrate the offices of other law enforcement and Department of Defense agencies. Strangest of all, the "students" had visited the homes of numerous DEA officers and other senior federal officials."

"....... Reports of the mysterious Israelis with an inexplicable interest in peddling art to G-men came in from more than 40 U.S. cities and continued throughout the first six months of 2001. Agents of the DEA, ATF, Air Force, Secret Service, FBI, and U.S. Marshals Service documented some 130 separate incidents of "art student" encounters. Some of the Israelis were observed diagramming the inside of federal buildings. Some were found carrying photographs they had taken of federal agents. One was discovered with a computer printout in his luggage that referred to "DEA groups."

......"In some cases, the Israelis visited locations not known to the public -- areas without street addresses, for example, or DEA offices not identified as such -- leading authorities to suspect that information had been gathered from prior surveillance or perhaps electronically, from credit cards and other sources."....

".....The document detailing most of this information was an internal DEA memo: a 60-page report drawn up in June 2001 by the DEA's Office of Security Programs. The document was meant only for the eyes of senior officials at the Justice Department (of which the DEA is adjunct), but it was leaked to the press as early as December 2001 and by mid-March had been made widely available to the public."

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3e4_1221312488

Recorded at the April 2008 X-Conference at the National Press Club, Washington D.C

President Clinton...

".. There is a government inside the government and I don't control it."

(V): Franklin D. Roosevelt:

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson."

The question, as you seem to hint at, then becomes possibly more sinister, stated thus: Who controls the financial element?