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28. Marto 2009, 04:48:29
tyyy 
and I never said I was "enlightened", I just don't want others trying to cram it down my throat

28. Marto 2009, 04:55:24
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
The Usurper:Ok, let's assume he didn't say it, for the sake of argument.

We have to assume he didn't say it, there's no evidence he did. 

The question then is, does Bush in fact despise the Constitution?

Well, you'd have to make a conclusion based upon some evidence and you'd have to make a subjective judgment.

Did his actions while in office provide overwhelming evidence of that?

No.  You will say yes but overwhelming?  Prove it to me. 

Did he undermine the Constitution, oversee the gutting of its Bill of Rights, and otherwise act as if he were not bound by it, in true dictatorial style?

Again, you are assuming the very thing you are trying to prove.  Question begging. 

So whether he said these words in actuality is not very relevant.

You are absolutely 100% wrong here.  It fully matters.  The very issue under question right now is the quote! 

I think he probably did, but then I wasn't there.

Who cares what you think?  That's certainly not proof of anything!  I think he probably didn't!  There.  Now I've balanced out your opinion so we're back to zero. 

What he DID, however, is very relevant.

What he DID is an entirely different question.  I'm ONLY responding to the quote you claim is his.  You have NO PROOF.  No proof but yet you still believe an anonymous source.  You just went down a few notches on my respect meter.    Now I know that you'll believe something is true even if there is no evidence for it.

I expect now you'll want a list of things he did to undermine the Constitution, with links to supporting evidence, etc.

Of course.  And since you're the one making the claim, it's on you.

But really, so much information is out there, the evidence is so complete, that if you don't recognize it already, nothing I could post could change your mind.

Well, all I have to do is go to some left wing loon's website and I can find all the "evidence" I need.  Of course, I'll just stick to the right wing nut's websites.  Think I'll find anything there?



28. Marto 2009, 04:56:47
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re:
GoodTimeCharlie:"cram it down my throat"

exactly.  I do have a brain and can think for myself.  I'm not easily fooled and when someone tells me what to think, that is a red flag in my book!

28. Marto 2009, 05:11:36
The Usurper 
Temo: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
Artful Dodger: "Of course, I'll just stick to the right wing nut's websites. Think I'll find anything there?"

Try Jack Blood, Alex Jones (PrisonPlanet & InfoWars), G. Edward Griffin (FreedomForce), etc. These people are Libertarians. Or try reading some Ron Paul stuff. :o)

But you're right, the Neo-Con websites will have a different view. But while they will improperly defend a Fascist like Bush, they will also properly accuse, say, Rhodesian socialists like Clinton or Obama, which accusations the liberals will reject.

We go 'round in circles...and only the few will escape the Matrix. Most take the blue pill and go back to sleep, annoyed at being stirred from their slumber in the first place.

28. Marto 2009, 05:16:07
The Usurper 
Temo: Re:
GoodTimeCharlie: "I just don't want others trying to cram it down my throat"

Actually, I was responding in good faith to questions you asked, as it turns out, in bad faith. You are welcome to ignore everything I post. I'm not holding you down & forcing your mouth open.

28. Marto 2009, 05:30:49
The Usurper 
Temo: Re: The Disclosure Project
(V): "The Conservative party over here has promised (or so their leader has.... that if the Conservatives get into power they will open up and publish all the UK secret UFO info."

If only these parties would actually deliver on their promises. lol Alas, the con game continues.... though hopefully a greater percentage of people are waking up....

28. Marto 2009, 05:31:58
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
The Usurper:The point is, you were totally wrong about attributing that quote to Bush.  Take your medicine and stop the dance around. 

28. Marto 2009, 05:35:34
Czuch 
ever feel like you are being ignored??


hahah, only when I have a valid point

28. Marto 2009, 05:38:40
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re:
Czuch:

28. Marto 2009, 05:58:54
The Usurper 
Temo: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
Modifita de The Usurper (30. Marto 2009, 05:35:54)

Artful Dodger: I just wrote a long post in response to you & Czuch, which I lost by accident while trying to copy before posting a preview...and I don't have the time or inclination to rewrite it.

Suffice to say, I don't need medicine, you do. I stand by the accuracy of the Bush quote. And I stand by the broader arguments I made, which really are the issue. And I ignore Czuch because he is a socialist who claims to be anti-socialist while embracing Rebublican socialism & railing against Democratic socialism....therefore most of his posts are not rational enough to deserve commentary.

Now I must say good night and return to the book I am reading, "The Creature from Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve," G. Edward Griffin. I am reading this book because I seek further enlightenment from well-informed individuals (like Griffin) who have something to teach....so that I can better understand the world I live in and perhaps know better how to resist the New World Order.

Nite, gentlemen. :o)


 


keep the guidelines in mind from now on.  It will be important for your future posts.


28. Marto 2009, 06:02:25
Bwild 

28. Marto 2009, 06:21:42
Bernice 
Temo: I am reading this book because I seek further enlightenment....
The Usurper: are you sure that is what you are seeking.....or is it just something more to ram down our throats??

It appears that you arent impressed with AD's "unknown contributor" hahahaha.....AKA as "anonymous"

Im glad someone has the time to try and correct you in your assumptions, most of which are gobbledy gook and written by who? people of no importance at all......Gimme AD's facts anytime.

and fancy ignoring Czuch....bit rude arent you?

28. Marto 2009, 06:33:44
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
The Usurper:You mean you stand by the questionable accuracy of a report based on your preconceived notions.  And, in spite of the fact that there is NO EVIDENCE, you accept the story as true.   There's goes your credibility with me. 

28. Marto 2009, 06:58:33
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re: I am reading this book because I seek further enlightenment....
Bernice:WEll, I'm going back to just moderating the board for a while.  I'm not going to go to all the trouble of checking out a story, discovering the source is an anonymous one, and that anyone can post at the originating site, only to be told the story with no evidence is accurate.  Way past reasonable. 

28. Marto 2009, 08:11:32
Bernice 
Temo: Re: I am reading this book because I seek further enlightenment....
Artful Dodger: when I read what you found about "anybody can post" and "anonymous" any credibility in Greg and his "links"went out the window with the smoke from his smelly pipe

28. Marto 2009, 08:14:37
The Usurper 
Temo: Law of Diminishing Returns
I've enjoyed posting & debating here over the past couple of months. It has been profitable to myself, if to no one else. I've made real progress in my understanding of many things. I thank everyone who has either defended me or opposed me, on whatever occasion & regarding whatever issue.

I have a focus now and I intend to pursue it. My time is limited and I have a lot to do, so I will post here only rarely, if at all, in the foreseeable future. Thanks again to those who engaged with me in discussion of these interesting & important issues. Best wishes to all.

28. Marto 2009, 11:46:25
Mort 
Temo: Re: if it is giving you health care or welfare or any other, is all a form of big brother.....
Czuch: ...... So you get it now. And I think it does sound like some systems in place today in the western world. IE as in the USA your local state and county governments, and in the UK our local councils, who are given the ability to raise money from locals and get some dosh from the Government to use as they feel fit to meet the needs of the people living in their area.

It's not true socialism, but it's closer then the old USSR model.

28. Marto 2009, 15:36:17
Papa Zoom 
Temo: My time is limited and I have a lot to do, so I will post here only rarely,



28. Marto 2009, 15:48:39
Papa Zoom 
Temo: And this just in
Alex Jones is quoted as saying: "I don't really believe in that 9/11 conspiracy crap.  It's all hype by a bunch of know nothing morons.  But there is no money in following the truth but plenty of money can be made by jumping on the conspiracy band wagon.  Some people will believe a lie before they will believe the truth."

The anonymous source for this information claims to be quoting another anonymous source who overheard his mother telling a friend she overhead the owner of a restaurant telling the cook that the waitress overhead the busboy telling the dishwasher that another waitress overhead Alex Jones tell say all this to a female companion while visiting the restaurant for breakfast.  The anonomous waitress, the one who overheard Alex's confession, quickly wrote down on a napkin what she heard and the owner found the napkin and asked the anonmous waitress about it.  The owner of the restaurant, who will remain anomous, is well known for his pancakes and honesty.  To this day, Alex Jones hasn't denied the quote. 



28. Marto 2009, 15:50:05
Papa Zoom 
I stand by the accuracy of that quote.

28. Marto 2009, 15:58:09
Vikings 
Temo: Re: And this just in
Artful Dodger: I heard that it was the dishwasher telling the busboy, therefore, your post is irrelevant and thus, invalid

28. Marto 2009, 16:01:58
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re: And this just in
Vikings:It was but on that day they switched jobs so I'm sure the story is correct. 

28. Marto 2009, 16:27:40
tyyy 
You guys are worse than me

28. Marto 2009, 16:32:43
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re:
GoodTimeCharlie:
  I still can't verify that quote made by Alex Jones but I can't stand him so I stand by the accuracy of the quote. 

28. Marto 2009, 16:39:57
Papa Zoom 
If you put in 9/11 conspiracy crap into google, you get a bunch of hits.  I'll bet they all heard the story about Alex's quote! 

More evidence!

29. Marto 2009, 00:06:49
Bernice 
Temo: Re:
Modifita de Bernice (29. Marto 2009, 00:07:05)
Artful Dodger: I thought he was talking crap, but thanks for the heads-up ROFLMBO

29. Marto 2009, 00:15:40
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re:
Bernice:  It's one thing to make a claim with evidence, it's another thing to make a claim with no evidence and tell others to wake up and smell the coffee.  Something smells alright and it isn't the coffee. 

29. Marto 2009, 04:00:21
ScarletRose 
Temo: Re:
Artful Dodger: It's Zanes diaper! LOL Whew!

29. Marto 2009, 04:36:02
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re:
ScarletRose:

29. Marto 2009, 05:33:14
Foxy Lady 
Temo: Re:
ScarletRose:

29. Marto 2009, 11:43:44
Mort 
Temo: Re:
Artful Dodger: Early morning guff??

Seriously though... It would be nice for a full investigation to take place. Just to put minds at rest.... or at least by close observation of those giving evidence to see if the wool has been tried to be pulled over our eyes.

Some small investigations have taken place over here, and revealed that certain elements of what we were told before going into Iraq were false. Unfortunately it wasn't in the enquiries remit to go deeper.

29. Marto 2009, 15:53:30
Czuch 
Temo: Re:
(V): revealed that certain elements of what we were told before going into Iraq were false


Finally, first time I remember that you didnt use the word "lied".... there is always false information, all the time, everywhere, but it is a huge leap to accuse of lies and conspiracies.

30. Marto 2009, 05:31:43
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re:

(V):   Do you mean an investigation of the events leading up to the war in Iraq?  If a trustworthy investigation could be conducted, I wouldn't oppose that.  But what can be accomplished by it?


I'd rather see a complete revamping of the US's foreign policy with respect to military presence in other countries.  We have plenty of probems on our own soil and ought to be attending to those first.  I don't know what a good Foreign policy would look like but I think we can do much better. 


30. Marto 2009, 07:39:44
Mort 
Temo: Re:
Czuch: Sorry.. I'll remember to use the word lied to. It's more accurate in this case, We were told that Saddam could attack UK bases in 45 minutes.... that was a lie.

.... A deliberate one.

30. Marto 2009, 07:42:13
Mort 
Temo: Re:
Artful Dodger: More honesty in Government, and hopefully certain agencies in the USA finally reigned in. And to see if your government is being controlled by others directly and indirectly.

31. Marto 2009, 15:49:54
Snoopy 
Temo: a lil over the top
or maybe not
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7973274.stm


did all previous presidents have this?

31. Marto 2009, 16:12:55
Mort 
Temo: Re: a lil over the top
Snoopy: Basically yes. And I think you need to be more concerned over how our MP's last year claimed nearly £100 million pounds in expenses... over £130,000 per MP on average!!!!

Some have claimed that is because their wages are to low.

31. Marto 2009, 16:21:29
Snoopy 
Temo: Re: a lil over the top
(V): i was just amazed to read that doctors surgeons and blood travel with him


the fact that MP,s have claimed way over the top has been going on for years
i remember the last recession when the PM was calling for wage restraint and they voted themselves a wage increase way above anything normal ppl where allowed

dosnt matter which party you support they all out for themselves

31. Marto 2009, 16:33:42
Mort 
Temo: Re: a lil over the top
Snoopy: He's the President, unfortunately in the past pot shots have been taken at Presidents and the like (remember Reagan and I think Pope John Paul II).... so they take trusted medical staff and supplies in case of emergencies.

Yep, they are out for themselves.... This case of the Home secretary claiming over £100,000 for the family home (and classing it as her second home) just because she says she lives with her sister in London whilst working is taking the mickey.

I hope the inquiry does start soon into expenses. They were going to leave the report being done and published until after the elections next year.. But I think they finally got the idea that Joe public is getting very peeved over so much money being spent on what is being considered as pocket lining.

31. Marto 2009, 16:52:50
Snoopy 
Temo: Re: a lil over the top
Modifita de Snoopy (31. Marto 2009, 17:40:11)
(V):

the inquiry into expenses will be yet another whitewash has all the rest have been

the sooner we have an election in the UK the better

mind saying that they all out for themselves so nothing will change

31. Marto 2009, 21:09:38
Mort 
Temo: Re: a lil over the top
Snoopy: It better not be a whitewash, as if it is... I can see the papers.. um.. um.. saying it nicely... reporting that it is a whitewash.

And if that happens, the confidence of the British people regarding Parliament will hit rock bottom.

And yes... sleaze is what our MP's seem to be best at.

31. Marto 2009, 21:31:42
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re: a lil over the top
(V):   Do your elected officials have term limits?

31. Marto 2009, 22:08:32
Bernice 
Temo: Re: a lil over the top
Artful Dodger: yes I think they do, the same as ours.
We have elections every 4 years for PM and fed. govt. There is no limit on how many elections you can win (in australia at least).
Is this what you mean by "term limits"

31. Marto 2009, 23:00:48
Mort 
Temo: Re: a lil over the top
Artful Dodger: Yep. Every 4-5 years there is a general election. MP's get voted for as part of the process. Also local councillors are subject to election as well.

The only ones exempt seems to be civil servants!!

31. Marto 2009, 23:16:11
Bernice 
Temo: The only ones exempt seems to be civil servants!!
Modifita de Bernice (31. Marto 2009, 23:25:27)
(V): what a strange thing to say..... why would you want the THOUSANDS of civil servants voted in?.....and in your mind how would it be possible? How would you get to know your "applicants" to be able to vote them in? After all they are only doing a job and doing what their Bosses (who also arent elected to their position)are telling them. Now the Bosses presumably take their "orders" from the elected representatives.

Please enlighten us all

***or was it just something to say/remark upon***

31. Marto 2009, 23:35:50
Snoopy 
Temo: Re: The only ones exempt seems to be civil servants!!
Bernice: that is what is suppose to happen
but its well known here that civil servants seem to have more power than any goverment

31. Marto 2009, 23:53:20
Bernice 
Temo: Re: The only ones exempt seems to be civil servants!!
Snoopy: now how could that be....after all it is only a job, don't they go thru interviews same as any other job?

Or are things soooo different in Jolly England?

1. Aprilo 2009, 00:33:13
Papa Zoom 
Temo: Re: a lil over the top

Bernice:   Yes, that's what I meant.  I think term limits would be a good thing.   I think we'd stand to gain more than we'd lose.  Sure we'd lose the more experienced ones but those are the ones that seem to do whatever they like regardless of public opinion.   And new blood is always good.


As for civil servants, I suspect V was playing on the word "servant" as often service is not what we get from the govt but red tape etc.  Many civil servants are simply government loopholes one must jump through.  But I agree with you that voting for them would be crazy.  ;)


1. Aprilo 2009, 00:44:25
Vikings 
Temo: Re: a lil over the top
Artful Dodger: We do vote for our sherrifs

1. Aprilo 2009, 00:52:38
Bernice 
Temo: Re: a lil over the top
Vikings: we have SO MANY levels of Govt in australia it is laughable. First off we have local Govt...we vote every 3 years for them....each town has their own local govt. then we have State Govt...we vote every 3-4 years fpr them....each state has their own Govt. and then on top of all that we have Federal Govt. we vote every 4 years for them.

Now you have local laws, state laws and federal laws. and then there are my laws (in my house anyway LOL)

it is a very confusing system over here....I somehow think UK has something similar, but that is only a guess.

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