Artful Dodger: Is he? Then most countries in the western world are in trouble as most are following the same path in some form.

(V): You can't spend trillions of dollars and get out of debt. And no business should be bailed out. Not the business of the government. Not the way the market works. You can't manage the market in that way. You'll see. GM is bankrupt anyway. So it didn't help. The government will drive things even worse in the auto market. Idiots. They know nothing of running car companies.

Artful Dodger: .... and your economic basis for this is?

Sometimes you have to spend to save.

Artful Dodger:

In response to some comments:

> I don't trust him. I think all this stimulus crap will bite the US in the butt.

Entirely agree with this. Initially this stimulus package and the baiolout for the banks was put forth by the Bush administration at the end of 2008. As I recall MacCain and Obama interrupted their campaigns for one entire weekend to agree on how the stimulus package would continue after the election and both candidates pledged to release the 800 billion regardless of who was elected in the end. I think it is unsustainable. Releasing more money into the economy will fuel inflation and the money released so far has done nothing to slow down the rise in unemployment. More stimulus means a bigger deficit, and more unemployment means less tax revenues. The administration is a catch-22 situation. The solution is let companies fail and let the economy take the hit and start over. Saving banks, car companies and monopolies wil not help working class people or small businesses, and it is from those segments of the economy that the recovery will come in the end.

> One way to cripple America is to bankrupt her. That's where this huge
> spending President is heading.

The runaway spending started in 2001 when George W. Bush saw the surplus he inherited from Clinton as a license to print money. Then 9-11 happened and the was in Afghanistan and Iraq decimated the accounts balance. Both Bush and Obama have budgeted as if the 2000 surplus was still there. They have let Ben Bernanke talk them into giving so much money to banks that now tax payers are literally paying taxes to support banks that gouge their savings in the end.

George W. Bush is to blame for this. This situation was created before the election. I think Obama is making a serious mistake by playing the bailout game. If banks (car companies and others) fail to pay back the bailout money, then taxpayers will take the brunt of it.

> As to Al Frankin: ... The democrats disputed legitimate votes and the courts
> sided with the democrats.

Is it just me or does this sound a lot like the 2000 election? Back in 2000 the Democrats asked for a recount and lost. Now the Republicans asked for a recount and lost. So far the Reblicans are winning. They got a president, while the Democrats got just a senator!

Übergeek 바둑이: Yes it will, so many small businesses (such as restaurants and related dependant businesses) will fail if the bigger ones fall.

And if the same happens in USA as over here, then banks, etc will pick up and the related Gov's will make a profit in the long term.

Übergeek 바둑이: I agree that Bush carries a huge part of the blame for this mess. But he's not alone. Many other Republicans are to blame as are many Democrats. Anytime there improprieties in elections it's wrong. I think many politicians are basically crooked. And I'll admit, I can't stand most democrats. But I can recognize and idiot Republican when I see one.

Tuesday: but aren't there much more worthy ppl who deserve to be honored for doing hard honest work
not just bbeinga pop star
dodoesntake sense to me why hohonorim at all

Tuesday: the point im making if you honor one you have to honor them all and quite simply there isnt enough days in the year to do so..lol

As it is stated on the top of the board CURRENT NEWS and politics, therefore as much as I am bored with this topic, it is a valid one.

Please keep all baggage from the flame fellowships off of this board,

You can find it by doing a search by the bill number, SB-2099. http://ron.dotson.net/guns/sb2099.htm

Tuesday: Stalin I think had a bigger memorial... I'm not sure about other leaders of Russia, or as it became the USSR.

Tuesday: That or they've got some kinda of stasis.

Tuesday:  I see dead people.. EEEewwwwwWW

Übergeek 바둑이: The solution is let companies fail and let the economy take the hit and start over. Saving banks, car companies and monopolies wil not help working class people or small businesses, and it is from those segments of the economy that the recovery will come in the end.

Yes, I agree to that. For banks, the sentence "too big to fail" comes from people who are trying to protect their undeserved priviledges. To me it seems too obvious that the companies known for having cheated their balance and customers for years have to get cut off of the system, it would allow fair companies to take over the businesses. Problem seems to be that the justice isn't independent if it comes to the big fishes. I want the big fishes to starve so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so much. Well high politics, justice and the big corporations, soon as it implodes this will be a real relief for the people (maybe not every single individual, but who cares, lazy times will be over then, GREAT!)

Übergeek 바둑이: The solution is let companies fail and let the economy take the hit and start over.



Whats wrong with that idea??? Many economists believe we would have come out of the great depression faster and stronger had we simply done that, and my opinion is that is what we should have done this time as well

gogul: want the big fishes to starve so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so much. Well high politics, justice and the big corporations, soon as it implodes this will be a real relief for the people (maybe not every single individual, but who cares, lazy times will be over then, GREAT!)

Czuch: Yes, the big fishes and welfare abusers are the same, undeserved priviledges.

Czuch: The great depression and the NRA have little relation to current events. The depression back then was affected by the Gold Standard being behind currency evaluation. There was a universal lack of confidence back then, something we don't have now, and that since the great depression we've had systems in place to take care of those directly affected instead of 'soup kitchens'.... Also there is no 'dustbowl'. A lesson in agriculture that will never be repeated.

The NRA is not the same within reasonable comparison, as your current admin's policies have some significant differences which make the recovery program similar but different.

"want the big fishes to starve so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so much....."

Sounds socialist even communist in regard to reasons for communist/socialist states. But such is that such an attitude is against your free market model you idolise. No more Bill Gates, no more multi-internationals ruling the market..... If you think it through then in the long term to prevent re-occurrences then a cap on how much you can earn would have to be set.

.... More government, more interference but possibly (according to the likes of Karl Marx) would make the occurrence of depression/recession cycles (as they are natural to the free market) further apart, which in some respects lead to more unpredictability, leading to less risk taking.....

Businesses and people would just have to be more sensible, less risk taking naturally but at a cost of a less free market and codes of ethics being set which all significant businesses would have to live by.

.... A socialist free market.

(V): Sounds socialist even communist in regard to reasons for communist/socialist states. But such is that such an attitude is against your free market model you idolise. No more Bill Gates, no more multi-internationals ruling the market.....


Not really.... I am not against the free market at all.... it is the free market that would let failing companies fail, if Bill gates cant make it, well then too bad for him. But I dont want to force him to make less, or "force" him to stay in business (make it) with government. Thats what socialism does... it puts government supported limits on the highs and the lows, which most liberals subscribe to, they just want everyone to be middle class, they dont like to see anyone fail, and they will take from those who succeed to keep that from happening!

I am not saying that is all bad.... and mostly their hearts are in the right place, I just believe that in the long run, that is not the model i would want us to subscribe to... I believe it makes us all too homogeneous, too generic, and that is not good for growth and productivity and creativity... it creates laziness and complacency and in the end a blah, ordinary, and completely mundane country

(V): You are missing the point, altho it wasn't stated, If Bill Gates prospers, good for him, he did it in the free market, what companies people want to starve so so so so much (and it isn't that people want but rather know will happen) are the ones that the government has interfered and supplemented like the car companies and the large banks, those are already socialized and cannot make it as such without further stealing from the working people of their hard earned money, Bill Gates has already been stolen from

Czuch: And of Ethel who worked behind the till in the local Branch in 'X'? Or Mrs Jones the cleaner? What about Miss Peabody who works in the cafe reliant on car workers for 75% of it's trade??

You think it's all about big people and forget the little people who big business is reliant on and as such are not at fault for big businesses going under.... they are just working for a living!!

Pink Floyd's Final Cut first track comes to mind.

Vikings: SOME PEOPLE want them to fail, not everyone. In some businesses (which some people can't see) is the damage that uncontrolled failure can cause. One of the things everyone can agree regarding the great depression was the lack of hope that some people think is acceptable today! That lack of hope (everyone who disagrees about the cause and effect and cure) all agree was devastating.

"without further stealing from the working people of their hard earned money, Bill Gates has already been stolen from"

... Stealing?? Are not our government's elected? Through democracy!! We are not talking expenses here of MP's, but policy.

As for Bill stealing... we all know if we buy a PC we are buying windows, but the EU (government) has outlawed Bill's monopoly, yet you don't want this government and would allow Bill and the likes of Intel to cheat the market and us of 'free competition'??

What do you want?

(V): That lack of hope (everyone who disagrees about the cause and effect and cure) all agree was devastating.


Again, you assume too much and miss the whole point

The lack of hope was obviously not devastating, since we recovered and grew to even greater heights than ever imagined!

(V): You think it's all about big people and forget the little people who big business is reliant on


Again, you are wrong... I didnt forget about all those people, that just the way life goes sometimes. There might be a factory so I decide to build a hot dog stand to take advantage of their lunch breaks.... its all good, but I shouldnt get some government guarantee that this factory never goes out of business, just to protect my small venture?

Czuch: No I'm not. And as for greater heights then ever imagined.....

Sorry, the sci-fi writers imagined it way before it happened, and in retrospect... No country has beaten the power of the former British Empire and is unlikely due to our belief in democracy ever will.

"The lack of hope was obviously not devastating...."

At the time it was. And that devastation despite arguments about policies back then is agreed by all.

Czuch: If it was one related business.. but it never is. That point you keep missing.

(V): Funny thing is that it is you liberal types who say you dont believe in trickle down economics, except when it is turned upside down... I mean really???? You want to take from the rich to give to the poor, and then when the rich start to fail, then you want to bail them out

Czuch: You liberal types...... stereotyping..... read my last post

(V): your last post... it has nothing in it about trickle down economics?

All i know, is that every liberal I ever talk to, will tell me that trickle down economics doesnt work, when I argue that you cant keep taking from the big dogs because without the big dogs there are no little dogs... but now, for some odd reason, it is the liberals telling us how we have to keep the big dogs alive because the little dogs rely on them???

Czuch:  Good piint!

(V): Being elected has nothing to do with doing the right thing, unless you now have to agree with everything Bush did since he was elected, Gates was stolen from by the U.S. government and individual states governments

and by the way Judges are not elected into office only out in smaller jurisdictions

Czuch: I'm a human being, not a liberal. It would help if you remember that. As I said stereotyping me as a liberal will not work.

Do I have to repeat myself on that??

(V):  it's not a stereotype, it's a category. 

Vikings: I can disagree with policy without saying someone is stealing.

And Gates was stolen from... yet over here we find in respect he's been stealing (to use your phrase) though in broad daylight from consumers!!

And btw... I was talking not about judges, why change the subject?

Artful Dodger: I find categorising people never works. It's like trying to describe God with words.... how do you describe something that IS???

(V): Well, you're not God so that comparison is weak.   And a liberal IS a category.  We all fit into some slot with respect to our political views and with respect to our philosophy of life. 

There's a difference between a category and stereotyping.   Nothing wrong with identifying categories. 

(V): First of all it was judges that took his money, they weren't elected so there was no change in subject,

secondly Gates made a consumer product people voluntarily purchased it, then the government took his money because people are too lazy to download firefox. or buy apple
He stole from nobody, nobody had to buy from him

Artful Dodger: WE are all God. Everything IS God.

"We all fit into some slot with respect to our political views and with respect to our philosophy of life."

Ohhhhhhh no we don't!!

Vikings: we were talking about government, not judges....

Windows is not IE!! You'll agree 99%+ PC's (I allow for error) are sold with windows installed.. even the cashpoints and shop tills use windows.

(V):  Yes.  Even you fit into a slot of some kind.  It's what defines you and your way of viewing the world.  Not necessarily a rigid definition, but a definition nonetheless.  I'm a conservative thinker.  That ought to give you some idea of my political leanings and view of life.  Not every detail, but to some degree.   Some attitudes are definitely characteristic of the left, some of  the right.  Some fall in the middle.  

(V): judges are 1/3 of the government acting like 1/2 of the government.
who forced you to buy it?

Artful Dodger: And being loose it is never accurate. period.

(V):  It doesn't have to be accurate.  But in general, it's safe to say that you lean on the liberal side of politics and on moral authority.  My leanings are much more conservative.