http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Iraq_(December_1998)     Its convenient to blame bush for everything, but its not reality

Tuesday: That is an excellent phrase!

Bernice: your president made an ass of himself in front of the whole world, and it is something that will be laughed at, chaffed at, and giggled over for many a year to come :)

People have laughed and scoffed at most of the great people this world has ever seen .... its what idiots with no imagination and insight do, it is unfortunate that you will be long ago dead when the majority realizes the benefits from what GW has done for the world.

Czuch: name 10

Czuch: Im not going to be as demanding as Anastasia LOL....name me 1/2 dozen benefits from what G Dubya has done for the world.

Jim Dandy: I think they'd all be saying that an end to this situation needs to be found, but as for the way..... Mmmmmmmm

Czuch: I doubt it I'll be dead when certain records become unsealed.... But certain records are being kept locked are they not?

As for the benefits.... A short list would be good.

Bernice: 10 over 2 terms...should be easy for him to do...ALTHO,I ALSO asked him to do this..last month,I believe and he conviently ignored my post requesting it....I'm sure he will start with the death of Saddam and follow that by liberating Iraq...

Czuch: I also am not interested in what he has done for the "tax reliefs" for the peoples of USA, or similar....we are talking "the world"

anastasia: but he didn't do that on his own...G Dubya I mean, he had UK, Aus, and many other countries in there giving there expertise and assistance.

G Dubya was/is a warmonger and his father before him. I want to know what he has done for the "peoples" of the world...not the USA

Bernice: oh,I agree!!

Bernice:

1) No terrorist attacks since 9/11 on US soil
2) No Saddam to worry about
3) A democratic Iraq
4) Freedom for Iraqi people
5) More stability in the middle east
6) Democracy in other middle east countries
7) Fewer people/countries messing with the US
8) Less time money energy spent on military events
9) More time money energy spent on other things other than worrying about and dealing with idiots around the world
10) Done more for Africa than any other president ever.
11) Didnt have an affair with an intern

Its kind of difficult to quantify some of the benefits.... IE we can never know what kind of issues we would have had to deal with down the road if saddam was not taken out, its likely there would have been many, but we can never know now because he is gone... anyway, we really wont know exactly all the good taking saddam out did, and the full effects wont be realized for many decades, one thing is for sure though, liberals wont be getting any of the credit, it was all done in spite of them and with them getting in the way at every turn.

Bernice: He is not the president of the world, and its not his duty to do anything for the world, but since the US is one of the strongest countries in the world we end up doing more for other countries than any other country ever!

The world benefits in so many ways because of what the US does,

Czuch: are you serious? THIS is your list of a GREAT LEADER???? Pretty bad when you have to list his not haing an affair (that you know of,lets be fair here) as one of his GREAT feats as a President.
$587,014,855,847 cost of the war so far....how does number 8 figure into that

Czuch: are you serious? THIS is your list of a GREAT LEADER???? Pretty bad when you have to list his not haing an affair (that you know of,lets be fair here) as one of his GREAT feats as a President.
$587,014,855,847 cost of the war so far....how does number 8 figure into that
Reply (box)Czuch:

I cant wait to see what the great (V) has to say to those

anastasia: Who said anything about a great leader?

Anyway, that is the cost for this war, yes.... the point that you refuse to comprehend is what the cost of doing nothing would have been? My opinion is that the cost in life money and time would have been 100 times or more the cost we have spent right now!

Its funny you seem to understand the concept when it comes to something like global warming, where I am sure you would advocate to spend whatever money it takes right now and you would argue that it is nothing compared to the cost of not doing anything right now, right?

Its the same thing with Iraq, its impossible to figure the cost we would have paid by not doing anything, but I gaurantee you it would be a heck of a lot more than the figure you are complaining about right now!

Bernice: I am not sure what kind of list you want??? Do me a favor, take one of out presidents you like, maybe Clinton, yeah, use Clinton, and make a list for me like the one you want for Bush?

What abouty you anastasia??? Give me a list for Clinton or how about Carter, yeah Carter thats a good democrat right, give me a list for him!

Czuch: I'm not running around bragging about anyone being so damn great like you are with Bush, Chuck...and trust me,my list would be much stronger then yours is now tho,for sure....
Also...."the point that you refuse to comprehend is what the cost of doing nothing would have been?"
HOW do you know what I refuse to comprehend or NOT comprehend??
I DID agree with this war,in the beginning...I have NEVER EVER EVER said that I was opposed to it...after 9-11 I absolutly feel we needed to go kick somebody's a**! What I do NOT agree on is that Bush led us over there with the whole WOMD thing,and then guess what....we couldn't find any...then if THAT wasn't bad enough the JACKASS has the chahoonas to JOKE ABOUT IT! JOKE! Who the FLIP makes a JOKE about something like THAT?? the sick frig! Our guys and woman are over their DYING and he lifts up a TABLECLOTH and says..."opps,no weapons of mass destuction hiding there" *chuckle,chuckle* ARE YOU KIDDING ME!
We need to set a timeline up to get not only our military but also our civilians out of Iraq already.Enough is enough.I WAS in favor of military action,now we need to leave and let them either figure it out or blow each other up and be done with it! THAT is my point on it.

Artful Dodger: I asked for 10.she asked for...6 I think?? 5 more for her,9 for me

Artful Dodger: I have never denied anything good the man has done tho Art.It's just a shame,seriuosly,that what he has screwed up seems to far outweight the good that he has done.

anastasia: I am not nor ever have bragged about how great Bush is or was, I just dont think he is or has been all that bad, except when he acted more like a democrat and started spending too much....

I also know that Saddam didnt end up having WMDs, but he did have them before and it is very likely that he would have them, or try to have them again.... all Saddam had to do was show some evidence that he had either used or destroyed all the wmds that the whole world knows he had produced in the past, simple enough, show some video or something of them being destroyed, and he would still be alive today being a menace to the world!

But he refused to do that, he gambled that the UN and the rest of the world didnt have the balls to back up their threats towards him, and he was right, except for one person, and W is his name!

I dont really even care about wmds personally, Saddam broke UN resolution after Un resolution, and the UN told him if he broke one more, then he would face "serious consequences"... well he broke that one more, and as far as i am concerned that was the only thing we needed to get him out, the WMDs were only gravy!

You also neglect to mention that we could not have gone to war against saddam if congress did not approve it, and they have all the same resources available to them as Bush did.... you make it sound like all they did was say "well Bush said it, so we will blindly rubber stamp it"..... it was the US that agreed to take Saddam out, not Bush, the US!!!! And then the people who authorized us to go there did there very best at every turn to make sure we wouldnt be successful there! That is what you should be angry about IMO, that we sent our troops there and then sabotaged them just because some people wanted to make Bush look bad....

You are angry about him making a joke, well I am just as angry that the democrats in this country hated Bush so bad they would rather see our mission in Iraq fail just so they could make Bush look bad!!! Now that is the saddest joke of all!!

anastasia: And again I ask... give me a list of 10 for any president you want???

anastasia: How about a list of 10 things Bush has done to screw up the world?

anastasia: Taking quite awhile for the list of 10 Bush did to screw up the world? Should be easy right?

Czuch: sorry to take so long to get back to you Chuck...but I have a life outside of this board,Love :)
A few off the top of my head...The economy...His handling of Hurricane Katrina....His dealing with Russia....his dealing with Iraq.....his failure to capture Bin Laden......the unemployment rate.....

Artful Dodger: i agree, but some also would mention Hurricane Katrina.. and no doubt there was failure, but mayor nagin and his first responders were a disgrace.. a third of the police force deserted?? that's criminal and Governor Blanco??? my lord.. what a failure. funny how New Orleans preventive strategy has always been .."please don't let a hurricane hit here" there i got my shots in on that debacle.. but of course blame bush

I don't care for bush,, but again look at the choices... AL the Blowhard Gore??? John " reporting for duty" Kerry?consult with our allies about terrorism ? like France? yes they did have a successful operation against the terrorist Rainbow Warrior ship

Artful Dodger: I don't like him.I supported him in the begining because he was our President and if we,as a nation,doesn't stand behind it's leader,how does that make us look?
Has he done some good things...yes! he has...he hasn't dicked up the ENTIRE 8 years,just the majority of it.....no doubt...I WILL point to Iraq.....did he screw it up...yep,I personally think that he handled it wrong...I think we could have been MORE sucessful over their if he had gone about things differently.....Now...you will I'm sure make your next post to me...well HOW Anastasia...HOW should have have done things differently...I dunno...I am not the one sitting in the big chair...but I think SOME THING could have been done,or can STILL be done to wrap this thing up already.
I blame ALOT of people for the economy....does he take most of my anger...yep...sort of like when the waitress brings you your food that is messed up...she is the one that catches the attitude altho the only thing she did was serve it to ya..she didn't cook it....but he had a hand in the economy too,as did alot of others...I really have no use for MOST of the poloticians sitting in Washington right now.
We are out here in a weak economy,people have to choose between paying a mortgage and putting food on the table,kids are getting sick and can't go to a Dr for treatment because they have no insurance and yet the politicians see fit to vote themsleves a payraise...ohhh,goodie for THEM!
We disagree on this Art....we always will,I'm sure....these are MY opinions....I am entitled to them,just like you are entitled to yours,it's allll good.I hate Bush tho,nothing you or Chuckie can say will change my mind on that

bin laden's capture won't end things, al qaida will eventually dry up and blow away if enough pressure is kept on them, like the red brigades and baader- meinoff gang and other stateless groups

Artful Dodger: so unless I give you a spreadsheet,my opinion is worthless...so be it then

anastasia: You have a right to hate Bush, problem with most people that hate him is they give their list of reasons for hating him and most of that list is not accurate.... Katrina was not Bush fault, it was the local governments (democrats) fault.

Iraq not being wrapped up yet is also the fault of democrats who spent more time saying we should not be there and focusing on any negative aspects just for political gain, instead of backing what they voted for in the first place!

Why do you think all the foreign terrorists flocked into Iraq after the fall of saddam? It was because they saw all the anti war liberals and Bush haters not backing our efforts over there, so they knew it would be easy to go in there and disrupt our attempt to stablize the place! Had the country united behind the effort the message to the terrorists would have been loud and clear, dont mess with the US, because when the US has her collective mind made up we seldom fail at anything!

Liberals get all upset, that it is the American way to dissent and they have every right to do so, but we also have a right to point out that it was their insistent dissent that was the direct cause that emboldened our enemies and the direct reason we are still in Iraq today!

You can say yoiu wanted us out of iraq, but by constantly undermining our eforts there you actually made us be there longer!! Nice job liberal Bush haters!

Czuch: because MY opinion kept us over there longer...yeah....no

anastasia: so unless I give you a spreadsheet,my opinion is worthless...so be it then

It doesnt make your opinion worthless, just plain wrong!

You blame Bush for things that arent his fault and your opinions of him are based on false information

You are upset that we went to Iraq based on false information... but it is okay for you to base your opinion of Bush on false information???

Maybe you are not one of them... but so many people hated Bush from day one, they think he stole an election and that Gore and Kerry should have won, and so they spent his whole time as president trying to find examples to back up their pre made opinions! The guy never had a chance with half of the county and the media against him before he even started!


Its so easy for these people to say they dont like Bush because he did this or he did that.... but the truth is they didnt like him before he did anything at all, so now when they try to say it is because of this or that, its no wonder those comments fall on deaf ears like mine, just face it, you hated Bush the whole time and these so called reasons you give are just a way to make you feel good about never liking the guy at all!

Czuch: we found NO weapons...so how is it false information?
you THINK we shouldn't get a plan togther to pull our troops out?? what,do ya wanna make this into a 100 years war or something?
I didn't vote for Bush,nor did I like him...I didn't HATE him from day one...I let him prove himself...right,wrong or otherwise...
Ya know...you guys go spouting off that I am this and I am that,but you guys are the ones that put words into people mouths and twist stuff they say all the flippin time.
I'm done here.....gonna go finish my German lesson now...Auf Wiedersehen

anastasia: because MY opinion kept us over there longer...yeah....no


You cant run away from facts just because you dont like them.... its a fact that terrorists that hate the US and our free way of life were definitely emboldened by the fact that so many people around the world and in hte media were against the war! How can you say that isnt true? If the world was behind this war 100%, the terrorists would never have had the balls to go into Iraq and mess with their fight for hope and freedom, not a chance, and this war would have been over long long ago!

You cant have it both ways! Being against the war had a part in actually dragging it out longer, its a fact!

Czuch: I WAS NOT AGAINST IT....I JUST SAID.....omg,would you READ! I JUST POSTED that I WAS in favor of the war,in the begining! NOW we need to get something,a timeline to get out!
whats done is done...with Sadam,with the weapons...its DONE...now we need to scoot!

anastasia: .you guys go spouting off that I am this and I am that,but you guys are the ones that put words into people mouths and twist stuff they say all the flippin time.


Read what I said... that it probably didnt pertain to you, but that liberals in general... I was not putting words in your mouth, but if the shou fits...

The plan to get the troops out is to stableize Iraq enough to make it possible for them to take care of themselves when we leave! That would have happened long ago if it werent for the foreign terrorists comming in and messing everything up!

You think it is Iraqis fighting the US because they want us out of there and wish we never took down saddam for them???? Hell no!!! There may be a few like that, but those are the people who had it made being part of saddams inner circle and benefiting from his tyranny. And I have already explained to you why there are so many terrorists in that country, so i wont bore you again.

yes, like Art said, there was some looting and lawlessness early on done by misguided Iraqis, but that would have been easy to get under control, it is foreign terrorists plain and simple why we are still there!


Like I said before.... its hard to listen to people who didnt like Bush from day one try to make it sound like they have all these reasons for not liking him now

Its like me saying I dont like chocolate ice cream and then someone gets killed by chocolate ice cream and I say see thats why i dont like it!

Czuch: ok FIRST OFF...LMAO at the choc ice cream...that was just funny as all get out! again...I didn't hate Bush from day one....also...IYO....do you think...that even after we ARE able to leave Iraq,they will ever be able to take care of themselves..defend themselves?? OR do you think,the US will ALWAYS have to have some kind of a military presents there?
NOW...I mean it this time...I REALLY need to finish my German

anastasia: I agree the time is near, the Iraqis need to take more responsibility, and keeping a better eye on their borders would be a good place to start, I also think they need to use their oil money to give us some payback big time, I thought that was always the plan, but I havent heard anything about it?

I know not you personally... but cant you admit that many Bush haters took more delight in Iraq going badly just to stick it to Bush, and to me that is just plain sad!

anastasia: I think they will be able to take care of themselves... but i also believe that it will be part of our strategy to have some sort of military presence there, but because it benefits us to do so and not just because Iraq cant help themselves.

Czuch: I believe "Bush Haters" yes,absoluty LOVE when somethng would go badly so they can point and say I told you so.
I,however...and you can believe this or not,It really doesn't matter to me....would NEVER wish for someone to fail at anything,espeacially something as big as that...

anastasia: Well i do believe you, but there are way too many bush haters, probaly not many would admit it, but they would rather have us lose a war than have Bush succeed in Iraq!

If the liberal Bush hating media worked as hard to find positive storys that portrayed the war as going well, as they did covering everything negative they could find,like I have said before, its my opinion that we would have been out of Iraq long long ago!

Artful Dodger: If Obama were A CONSERVATIVE i THINK HE WOULD MAKE A GREAT CHOICE FOR PRESIDENT!

Artful Dodger: if you said he was a bad choice,I wouldn't really care WHY you thought he was,point is,its YOUR right to believe he is a bad choice...I might be curious and ask why,sure,but I wouldn't say your opinion is pointelss because you choose not to "back it up with facts".
I feel Bush's track record speaks for itself of his bad choices....I also feel tho,and I was just talking to a friend about this the other day...that perhaps he didn't surround himself with the best people,to make the best choices.

Artful Dodger: I have stated them,they are appearently just not good enough for you

This conversation reminds me of a 96 year old client I had 8 years ago, she said "I don't trust Bush, he looks funny." Of coarse when she was saying this I was staring at her mouth that had 4 teeth, two on the top of one side and two on the bottom on the other side, sort of like a crooked pumpkin.

Vikings: and apparently she spoke the truth?