Shouldn't be randomly I think, then u r much too dependent on what piece the server (computer) takes away.....should then be yr opponent who has the abillity to take away 1 piece after eacht fifth move....Then I think that u will get a lot of draws (which are very rare in the normal Spiderline games) because it is then easy to block the threats of yr opponent and try to craete a new one by yourself but after the 5th move that one is blocked too...do draw at the end...Black picks away a piece and will put one down itself...1 piece ahead for five moves but black was already in defense...so it will be a game of blocking till there are no squares left...at least that is what I think of it. You often need a key move to win in a forced way and when that one is taken away and also filled with an oppent piece you can start all over again and likewise for Black 5 moves later.I will have to test it, if it is true what I am saying, but good players will draw I think. But you can create the game and M4tt and I will test it...no problem!

SLAYER: What about a variant where one placed piece randomly disappears each fifth move? :-D

Thanks Nugsson and do you know from whom M4tt learned the game? Yes, me, lol! And I, myself learned it from studying the games from the early tourney winners at IYT from the year 1999 and 2000. I also think (When I play concentrated) I know every forced win for White (Purple) You can only lose with White while making a big mistake. Anyway I know a huge lot of forced wins what makes the game less interesting for me nowadays (some winning sequences already appeared in hundreds of my games and that is getting pretty boring, when u know u r gonna win but it still have to take 6 moves or so...) and are retiring soon (from IYT).

are the boards with a height of 7 solved as well ?

I was white in this game with "John's Connect Four Playground," a "perfect playing connect-4 program" Its "12Kbyte database of all 8 ply positions" did not stop it from making a losing mistake on its second move.

1) d1 - a1
2) f1 - b1??
3) e1 - g1
4) c1*

No human expert would let me win in four moves, regardless of who started. What constitutes perfect play as black is subjective, of course, but that is exactly why humans are better at it.

Programs that can play connect four (6x7) perfectly:
4 in a row (http://www.fierz.ch/4inarow.htm), Mustrum(http://www.lbremer.de/mustrum_e.html), TitOT (http://corporate.skynet.be/bats/TitOT/), Velena (http://www.ce.unipr.it/~gbe/velena.html), and John's Connect Four Playground (http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/c4/c4.html)...


But the purpose of games is to provide entertainment for human players. Therefore, computers will not discourage me from playing "solved" games. Only when connect four is solved for me (that is, when I know how to always play perfectly myself), will I abandon it.

Right. I could find many chess programs I could beat, even though I admit that I am terrible at chess. Does that mean there aren't any good ones?

Yes, there are many more programs that don't play perfectly but there are also those that do.

Nothing I'm afraid.... the best thing to do is to study how good players win their white games. I learnt at ItsYourTurn.com from players like M4tt and SLAYER... nowadays I guess you could look at some of my games. Try to play the same lines again and again until you remember the best way to play that line. If you need any advice I am happy to help.

Does anybody have a good study guide for Spider Line4?

Computers are not all so strong. Here follows a game I played with the program found at http://members.aol.com/shadows125/connect4.htm. Since there was no option for me to play second, I used the opening move a1, which is a proven loss for player 1.

BuilderQ vs http://members.aol.com/shadows125/connect4.htm

1) a1 - d1
2) d2 - d3
3) d4 - d5
4) f1 - d6
5) f2 - f3
6) g1 - c1
7) e1 - c2
8) e2 - c3
9) g2*

Since the program never learns from its mistakes, unlike a human player, you can go to that site and play all of my moves, and it will respond with the moves I have recorded.

Many people still enjoy playing the 7x6 board on other sites, despite its being solved, so I don't so why BrainKing shouldn't have it in addition to the 8x8.

Odd board heights are workable, but require revised strategies.

the original board was 6 heigh ... the board on here is 8 heigh .. is there a reason to stick to even numbers for the height ?

ah thanks :)

The original Connect4 board game is 7 x 6. That size has been solved to be a forced win for player 1 from the start, and there are actually quite a few programs that, when playing first, WILL WIN (not draw) every time. That's why 8 x 8 is used here - it hasn't been solved (at least not yet) :-)

do i have to learn counting ... or is the board i have at home 7 tiles wide ?

*ponder*

There's no doubt about it, white should win every time. I don't know if anybody has 'solved' the game as such but I don't doubt it can be done. Every response black makes can be followed by a 'best' move by white, and 3-4 moves in it's very often a forced win for white.

Does anyone know if this game has been solved yet? (if there's a sure win for either side).
From my experience (and from this site's stats), white has a big advantage but I haven't found a winning sequence yet...

Note: I don't want to know the sequence, even if there is one... just to know if anyone found it.

I have got a 4x4x4 game at home, you cannot place the pieces everyware, you have to start at the lowest layer and then work you way up, very interesting game

not in a 4x4x4 board (cube)

you will run out of the board

try it on paper

.... .... .... ....
.... .... .... ....
.... .... .... ....
.... .... .... ....

those are the 4 layers .... place on top of each other

If you can place a piece anywhere, to connect four is very trivial for player 1 to force.

no gravity .. its like the five in line game .. you can place your pieces anywhere

By the way, here's another variant:
CRISS CROSSING FOUR IN A ROW

What sort of "gravity" exists in this variant? Or can pieces always be placed in any of the 64 spaces?

nice pattern :)

Well, click here to see one possilbe web pattern.

I like that, BuilderQ! ... maybe some sort of web throughout the board too? (dim, so as not to look TOO "busy")

Based on the example of Froglet's success, I wonder if the popularity of Spider Line 4/tris could be elevated through the use of pieces with a more thematic quality. Click here for an example of what I mean. :)

Yea, I thought it would be cool if any full line would disaprear.

I just found out (though it says so on the rules) that only the borders can disapear. A complete line in the middle of the board will remain there... (too bad, the game was being interesting)

But now, what if, after removing a full line in one of the borders, another full line takes its place? Is this one removed as well?

i came here to post a suggestion for a variation but found out Sprietzsche already posted abot it in the past

noone ever comment about it though ?

are there any reasons why noone responded about an 4x4x4 board for line 4 ?

No, even in this case the rules are the same as for Spider Line4. All squares between target position and the corresponding wall must be filled.

Can pieces left floating (unconnected to any edge or other pieces touching the edge) serve as bases to stack from?
Maybe the description of this board should be modified? :)

Yeah I find it a little easier playing black

Thanks :)

I would say black. Zugzwang generally forces white to be the one to complete the bottom row, enabling black to stack four vertically in the newly-created spaces at the top

If you had 2 top linetris players evenly matched, then who has the advantage, is it white or black?

Then I should add it. Thanks for notifying me.

No, it isn't mentioned in the rules, but thanks for the clarification.

Isn't it mentioned in rules? When only one column remains, a piece can be placed on top of opponent's last piece.

As for a spider web shape... the spaces have to be a shape that can tessellate. Or is it the general shape of the board that we are talking about?

yeh hexagons, pentagons, octagons or whatever seems to work. It will be an intresting concept

By "Spiders Web shape" do you mean hexagons? (ie: 3 directions to create lines rather than four?)

Geez! Sounds crazy!! I would be absolutely gutted if a line just totally disappeared after spending hard work building up a win! lol! Just the thought of trying to work out the new moves Spider Linetris would create is hurting my head! lol! Sounds good though, maybe worth trying, as one line disappearing could turn a game completely on its head!

How about changing the square shape board to a Spiders Web shape! As BBW said, 12x12, & Web shaped would be cool. Have the middle space reserved for a spider there..and call the spider SPIDERM4TT!! lol :-)

Interresting question! It is certainly draw before the board is completed if there is no legal move

What happens? Does the restriction against playing on top of the last piece prevent the final column from being filled?

Yep, it does! I'll have to experiment with it a bit and see how it works! At least it would get rid of those pesky occasional draws... :-)

Nope, except I keep losing to the TitOT software...as both colours...lol :-)

Seems like a fun game though!

Spider Linetris sounds really interesting!

Just the outside wall would disappear and everything else shifts that way. If you fill two walls at once [corner move], both lines disappear and everything shifts diagonally.

How would it work. Just the "outside" wall would disapear and everything else "shifts" that way, or would any line disapear and have everything else shift right or left to fill in the line.

(not to copy off too much from other sites), but I like how GT have a random piece placed on the board which both colors can use, and how they have a "black hole" space random on the board which NO player can place a piece - OF course they don't have those of the "spider" line games, just the normal line games, so i guess it would not be a copy there.

Also something that would be cool to try is some "special" shape boards. For example:

Square Wheel: 12x12 board with middle 4 spaces "blocked" out - BUT can build from the middle spaces also!

Hey Line4 experts,
what would you say to Spider Linetris? Would it be an interesting variant? :-)