Czuch: Yes. It means that wall street isn't confident in his plan. That's a huge drop. He should have taken Regan's approach to the stock market fall of 87. Regan left it alone to do its own thing. It not only bounced back, but it flourished. Obama's plan should have at least softened the downward trend but it seems to have made it worse.

OTOH, it takes months for the stock market to correct itself. One analysis says there is tons of money just waiting for the stock market to show signs of a recovery and then it will soar to new heights. We'll see.

unbelievable

The Usurper: Even distortions

The Usurper: Rubbish. You're using google mined stats. I used the first one's I found. And one of the links gives numbers from 90,000-600,000 but concludes it's impossible to know. And your charge of murder is simply not true and a manipulation, sheer propaganda.

The Usurper: So what. You google mined for those stats. As I correctly pointed out, no one knows for sure. You're using the WORST stats you could find. That's disingenuous. Also, you said the US murdered these Iraqis. That is a deliberate false statement. And as I have pointed out, most of the deaths were carried out the terrorists - the Muslim kind. ONLY where the US deliberately ignored civilians when they bombed an area or when they deliberately bombed civilians do you have a case that even comes close to murder. This is what I mean by propaganda. YOu use these terms so loosely that I just blow off everything else you say. You play so loosely with the facts that your credibility with me is in serious jeopardy. I'm beginning to think you will say anything, just to support your point. Facts be damned! Michael Moore IS a BIG FAT LIAR. Don't be like him.

Czuch: The idea of "potential" human life is just plain nonsense. It's not scientific. We know better these days what we are dealing with.

Sperm is alive. Basic biology. So is the egg. From these living cells comes another kind of life: human. At conception, we have life. There is no point in the human chain of existence where life of some kind wasn't present. So this notion of potential life flies in the face of the facts. And basic biology tells us what kind of life is present at conception.

Biology science is in agreement on this. Yes you can find scientists who will say otherwise, but the majority of scientists make the bold statement that there is NO QUESTION that human life begins at conception.

(V): It's a biological fact that human life begins at conception. Science is settled on this question. Life is present at the moment of conception. And clearly, nothing significant differs from 5 mins before birth to 5 mins after. There is no energy rush. That is metaphysical mumbo jumbo.

Czuch: Seems to me that all the problems the US has to put up with regarding "detainees" it would be much easier to just shoot them all. Easier to shoot and bury them than it is to accommodate every whine of the left over their treatment

*note to critics: not saying we SHOULD do this. Just seems so odd that more of a stink is raised over the US and its actions and you hear almost NOTHING from the critics regarding the terrorists. Hamas fires rockets everyday into Israel. Israel does nothing for months. Finally Israel responds and WHAM, the critics are there defending poor Hamas and Gaza and condemning Israel But little to no mention of the constant rockets being fired into Israel. Were the tables turned, Israel would be condemned for the rocket fire and Hamas would be justified for a heavy handed response.

Czuch: Exactly. And we know that happens but clearly it's not a policy of the US military.

Czuch: Or indicting themselves for some evil they've done.

Czuch: Usurper used the word "murder" incorrectly. He's also inflated his numbers.

(V): "They protect many rights, including those of Christians and other religious groups."

Yes but they also do a lot of harm IMO. And many issues where they should be active, they are silent. They love liberal issues. Not so much conservative.

The Usurper:First of all, your 750,000 figure is extremely inflated.  According to http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ the figure is under 100,000.

Secondly, a large percentage of these deaths are due to suicide bombers, roadside bombs, and other terrorist acts. 

I'm not saying that it's ok to kill any civilian.  And I'm not saying collateral damage "happens."  Even though it does.  But if the US went in to liberate Iraq, then killing any of their citizens, even accidently, is a very unfortunate thing and should be prevented at all costs.  But where ever you get those figures, it's wrong. 

According the Boston Globe the total figure will never accurately be known.  Even if your figure were correct, a majority of deaths come from within. 

The following is an example and can be found on Michael Moore's website: "The deadliest single incident in February was a suicide bombing carried out by a woman on February 13 among a crowd of mostly women and children on the way to a religious festival. She killed at least 38 people and wounded at least 50."

That's murder and the person or persons responsible are the terrorists and NOT the US. 

The Usurper:First of all, your 750,000 figure is extremely inflated.  According to http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ the figure is under 100,000.

Secondly, a large percentage of these deaths are due to suicide bombers, roadside bombs, and other terrorist acts. 

I'm not saying that it's ok to kill any civilian.  And I'm not saying collateral damage "happens."  Even though it does.  But if the US went in to liberate Iraq, then killing any of their citizens, even accidently, is a very unfortunate thing and should be prevented at all costs.  But where ever you get those figures, it's wrong. 

According the Boston Globe the total figure will never accurately be known.  Even if your figure were correct, a majority of deaths come from within. 

The following is an example and can be found on Michael Moore's website: "The deadliest single incident in February was a suicide bombing carried out by a woman on February 13 among a crowd of mostly women and children on the way to a religious festival. She killed at least 38 people and wounded at least 50."

That's murder and the person or persons responsible are the terrorists and NOT the US. 

The Usurper:  And with that, it's Spring Ahead so I'm no 1 hour late getting to bed.  You'll have to set me straight tomorrow!       

The Usurper:  If indeed the military called it a homicide, then that's murder.  I should have been more specific.  I was referring to the 750,000 Iraqi civilians you say we murdered.

The Usurper:  Using words like "murder" isn't simply rhetoric, it's propaganda.  How about instead of saying murder, just give the details and let people conclude from there?  

The Usurper:  I've seen 911 mysteries if that's the one with the woman commentator.  Think I have the other one too.  I have about a dozen.  I love the INTERNET.  You can find anything on it. 

As for my sources for news.  They are multiple.  But let's look at Fox first.  I rarely miss The O'Reilly Factor.  But he's not "the news."  He raises awareness on issues and yes does some news analysis (so you do get some news).

I don't watch much else news wise on Fox (on a regular basis).  I don't have time to watch it all.  But when I can, I try to catch the hard news on Fox here and there.  Mostly it's just tidbits.

We also watch the mainstream media (cuz the wife wants to) and the local news (the majority source for us as far as cable goes).  Then there's the various blogs I read and favorite websites.  I peruse other sources too (The American Thinker; Dr Sanity; Heritage.org; Townhall;  and probably a few others (can't think of em at the moment).

Oh and I'm just getting into Glen Beck.  But he's on while I'm working so I have to watch what I've taped and usually don't have time for that either. 

While I'm not convinced that some mass conspiracy exists with regard to 911, but there are things that don't add up (on both sides).  In particular, they way the towers fell and the way wt7 fell.  I watched a documentary and they scored some good points.  In particular, they raised questions as to why the core fell.  There were a couple of other questions that popped into my head that the documentary didn't cover.  Frankly, I can't handle the CIA being bad, the US murdering 750000 civilians and all the other stuff you throw into the ring.  It is enough for me that I want to explore just ONE THING for now.  

Suggested reading for Usurper

So you don't miss out on any of em  ;)

The Usurper:I've seen it.  It's a horrible experience but it CAN'T kill you.  It just scares the crap out of you.  I think they should water board a bunch of people who might know something about 911.  Sleep deprive them first.  Then blast them with Tiny Tim music for a few days.  Then water board them.  They'll talk.  911 mystery solved. 

And when someone complains that it's torture I say this:  Provide the information we seek now and we won't water board ya.  If you don't talk, get yer bathing suit. 

The Usurper: The reason most of your hate america rhetoric doesn't get very far with me is that you never seem to talk about the horrors that go on with other countries or groups.  It's the USA blah blah blah.  You also pack your posts with emotional wording that qualifies as propaganda.  And you often resort to belittling comments (wake up). 

Since you are trying to convince people of your view, assuming as true that which you are trying to prove is a bit of question begging. 

All of your radical ideas basically come from the same core philosophy.  The many sites you list contain much of the same conspiratorial language.   And if people don't agree with you, they are told to wake up or something to that effect. 

I know it all ties in nice and neatly for you but you are all over the map with this stuff. 

The Usurper: The enemy in general.  I have no sympathy for those that hate America and choose to do battle with the US.  I believe that for the most part, our troops act properly.  I also believe that for the most part, radical muslums are evil filthy murders.  All of them. 

Depending on your definition of torture, I don't approve of it.  Water boarding isn't torture.  Sleep deprivation isn't either.  Some things clearly are.  But hey, let's adopt their rules of engagement.  Let's treat them like they would treat us.  Whens the last time you complained on and on about the fact that the terrorists behead innocent civilians?  This is standard operating procedure.  When I think of the enemy, I have people like that in mind.  None of them deserve to live.  Why not just follow their rules with captures.  Just take a big knife and slice their heads off (while they are screaming and writhing in pain). 

Bernice:Greg knows these things are true because he has bugged the White House. 

The Usurper: I have no sympathy for the enemy.  NONE.

The Usurper:I agree with the last post.  But I also sympathize with the difficulties of fighting an enemy that blends in.  You can't know who the enemy is.  I can't find any sympathy for people who want to rule the world and see us all forcibly converted to Islam or have our throats slit. 

The Usurper:"At least you admit you agree with torture and murder."

If I agreed with that, I'd say that.  Using your way of assuming things from what's not said, I can say that at least you admit you'd rather see our soldiers ambushed and killed and that you are in favor of protecting the enemy.  You prefer a dead American soldier over a terrorist.  Jane Fonda would be proud.

The Usurper:I don't care what the ACLU says.  They are a group of radical nuts so whatever they have to say I shrug off.  They have many axes to grind.  I don't trust them.  So if the story is true or not, I don't  know.  And without all the facts, I can't make a judgment.  Frankly I prefer them dead to our guys. 

The Usurper:Well you haven't proven that yet.  It may or may not be true.  I don't have any solid facts other than your word.  I don't consider anything from the ACLU credible.  So another source and no far left radical Alex Jones stuff please. 

The Usurper:  If it's true.

The Usurper:  Not true. 

The Usurper:  I've never trusted the ACLU

The Usurper:

The Usurper:  This is what ticks me off about you most.  YOu never find anything controversial to discuss. 

The Usurper:  Probably

The Usurper:  I thought Baker would be dead by now.   

The Usurper:  I don't get what Baker was saying.   It didn't sound like he truly addressed Paul's objection.  Am I missing something?

The Usurper:  Let me know when you find one here 

The Usurper:  Still probably better suited here:  Books. 

The Usurper:   Sounds out of this world. 

 A Bit   Science channel  that way  ------->

(V):Stay out of the conversations if you're going to be dishonest. 

(V): Why don't you just admit that you made a false statement and get it over with.  Saying Fox is the most trusted and that "I don't get my news from Fox" are two different things.  I've clarified this for you if you would care to read it and try to honestly understand it instead of trying to be clever (which you're not). 

And I couldn't care less if you don't pay attention to what I said about you making false statements.  It's a fact that you do this to me and it's also a fact that you do this with others. 

(V):Rubbish. You're making a false statement (as usual).  You quote me out of context (a typical ploy of the lying liberal left media). Here's what I did say:

Subject: But you DO use Fox News as a major source of information, correct?
Modified by Artful Dodger (6. March 2009, 21:53:28)
The Usurper:No I don't

and

"I don't get my news from Fox.  I get it from many sources...."

It's ONE source. I've said it's the best source for news but it's NOT my only source.  Don't try to put words into my mouth.  Would you like a list of the various sources? I really get tired of your constant manipulation of what people (particularly me) say on this board.  If you can't get your facts straight, then stay out of the conversation.

The Usurper:Now I gotta come up with some Dodgerisms. 

The Usurper:
  You got me on that one! 

The Usurper:Czuch never bothers me.  Fortunately, I agree with just about everything he says.  And more often than not, he's very diplomatic.  His other stuff is simply Czuchisms and should be taken as such.  He doesn't disdain truth any more than you or I.  He cherishes it. 

But easy for me to say since I like the guy and appreciate his POV since it most closely mirrors mine.  His snippy comments make me go or but most often get a from me. 

The Usurper:  I'm not going to defend Fox or any other cable network.  Think what you want about them.  As I've said, I couldn't care less about this theory of yours.  It's meaningless to me.  I don't get my news from Fox.  I get it from many sources and I am a skeptic at heart.  I don't believe everything I read or hear.

Some people on this form like to generalize and tell people what they are thinking.  Some like to twist words or create caricatures of others.  Some of  the things you say are a passive form of insulting.  Some not so passive.  "Some of us don't distain truth."  That is an arrogant statement.  When you make these kinds of statements, I just start ignoring you and I certainly don't take what you  say with any degree of seriousness. 

One of the most effective ways to get someone to consider your view, is to put a stone in their shoe.  The reason I don't buy global warming is I had a stone (of doubt) put in my shoe.  I am not a conspiracy theorist but there are some things about 911 that just don't add up for me.  Again, stone in the shoe.  I don't think the Republican party is always right.  But I hold strongly to conservative views and think that our country is better off run from conservative principles.  Still, I have some democratic congressmen that I respect.  I like Alan Combes now that he's off with Hannity.  He's so much better as a Fox News Contributor.  He brings a different view to the issues and he articulates them well.  I also like Dr. Marc Lamont Hill.  He's pretty much a Left kind of guy.  But he's brillant and gives excellent reasons for his views.  He's a regular on Fox.  He NEVER agress with the conservative viewpoints.  That's why I like watching Fox.  I know of MANY left leaning political commentators that are regulars on Fox. 

To my knowledge, neither Homer or Bart has appeared on a Fox news program for their views on anything.