I was playing at Yahoo when they implemented a ladder system. It started off being fun, then quite a lot of cheating started up, players were throwing games to each other to maintain their positions...they reset the ladder every 3 months, but this didnt stop them, they usually held the top 10-20 positions, and took it in turns to be #1, yes they accepted challenges, but very selectively, it became such a joke, and also became very nasty, I stopped playing there, because, really what was the point?
I have seen a succesful ladder system run at cases leagues, that can have some pretty strict rules implemented, but yet again I have seen the top positions manipulated in one league, this went on for ages until one of the players fessed up about it. Its fine to say that players have to accept challenges to keep ranking, but they can be selective in which challenges they choose, you can't very well make players accept EVERY challenge.
The thing which helped the ladder leagues at Cases work is simply you can throw out the cheats, but it takes a lot of dedicated time and energy to maintain the ladder properly.

How does one cheat in a ladder system when you are required to accept challanges to keep ranking?

I have been asking for the FIBS rating system here for ages, a ladder based system would encourage cheating, just like the BKR does. (speaks from experience) personally along with the bg bug, the lack of rating system, the lack of mulitpoint gamed, and lack of interest in this game I would recommend players intersted in this game head to www.dailygammon.com...its free to play, and to be honest, I personally think my membership at such a NON bg related site is a bit of a waste of money. I have lost 2 #`1 postions here due to losing major rating points with timeouts, (site related) its a letdown, and I just cant be bothered anymore

Makes good sense to me. I just won a game against a 1900 Backgammon player. It was all luck in this case as I rolled three doubles in a row and never got put on the bar. I went up 100 points. I used to be 1700 in Backgammon but a series of lossed put me all they way down to 1100! I did think that was a bit crazy.

How I understand it is that the current rating system here is great for skill based games (Like Chess).

But when you start to get into more "luck" based games (which Backgammon is a little luck - and Battleboats will be more luck when it gets here) - you need to use a different rating system to be more fair - since the current rating system is good for skill games and not luck.

I do not know all the details on the FIBS rating system that is used on the beter backgammon game sites, but it would be a better rating system to use for Backgammon - and probable other more "luck" based games like Battleboats.

That is what I understand the problem to be. :-)

BBW (BIG BAD WOLF)

That sounds like a great idea Vikings. I don't fully understand the rating problem here but I think I'm beginning to see what the fuss is about. It seems the problem is that USCF rating system is used to determine the backgammon rating? Or do I have that a bit wrong?

Take Care

I asked fencer if it would be possible to also add a ladder rating system, that way Higher ranked players are forced to take some challanges from slightly lower rated players

Has anyone been following the luck vs skill discussion on the Feature Request board (Fencer asked it be moved here) and care to comment?

love to ruby2shoes but I have my 20 games full maybe later when one comes free. :O) Thanks for the invite.

would you like to play backgammon with me - with a 3 day limit?

Congratulations to netvenus for winning the ArtfulDodger's Backgammon Tourney with a score of 6 of 7!!! Way to go!! And hooray for Artful Dodger for coming in last place!!! ;)

i am new on this web

hi there, i have it all sorted now, thank you all for your help, the problem was the settings on my new pc :( silly me

hi lovely sharon, yeah thats what i want to do, but the swap dice thingy wont change them, its giving me the 2 dice to move first :(

littlebabybird.. in your game 81484 .. you have to enter off the bar using the 3-die.. the 2-spot is blocked by your opponent .. that is why you cannot swap dice there.. i can't see a reason why in the other game 81455..

the games are numbers 81484 i'm white and 81455 i'm also white, the 3rd one is ok now, they are anti bg games, i would be everso greatful if you could tell me why i cant swap dice

Yes, or it would be even easier if you give the game numbers, found in the list below the game board. You can just go to any of the games you're playing, and i the address where it says "g=#####" just replace that number with the game number that you want to view :-)

Just say which games they are, and I'll see if I can tell anything. (What type of game and with who - possible your color if your playing 2 game match)

You can click on the person, and see all games going - and look at each game going I believe.

can you look at other peoples games on here? i have a problem with 3 of my games, i want to swap the dice on them and it wont let me, i will be able to use both dice and i just cant see what is wrong, is there any way you (whoever is here) can look at them to tell me that i'm being stupid and i cant swap them because of x y or z??

i don;t play chess of any kind yet im learning how to play ty

im new to this site and i know im starting off bad but i am a good player and would like to play anyone it doestn't matter i love the game

will not be playing any games til 2moro nite

hi there just to let you know that all of my games are running just fine and i dont think i have any bugs left at alland its great here :) job well done

and I must add that a few of us HAVE told you exactly why it's a rule, and the significance it plays. I can only assume that you haven't played enough to see the significance. And again, I must repeat, that just because you say its a RARE occurance, doesn't make it rare. It is really NOT rare at all.

so everybody who tells you to stop whining is being rude?
the rules were designed years ago, all you want to do is circumvent one of them.
and i did make it clear why it would be cheating, it's cheating because it is against the rules, the officially recognized rules of backgammon.
you could ask why you're not allowed to whip out a calculator during the course of a game also, the answer: that is also against the rules.
stop asking irrelevant questions, and just learn to play the game.
try reading paul magriel's "backgammon", it contains most of the everyday rules.
you could also go to http://www.bkgm.com/rules.html
Movement of the Checkers, look at number 4

The fact that you said that was not rude. Even though you have not made it clear why it would be cheating - you say "rules are made for a purpose". So i ask, what is the purpose of this rule? No one has answered me yet, and many people have made rude posts (such as yourself) telling me to stop whining and trying to cheat, and to just accept it's a rule. I never once said i was against the rule, nor did i ever say i did not want to follow the rule, nor did i say the rule is not legitimate. I was simply questioning the rule.

what is rude about stating the obvious fact that you want to cheat?
rules are made for a purpose.

Thank you for replying, except i specifically said i don't expect this rule to be not used, and i have used it in real life games many times. You know what? I'm not out the door, am i?
And also, it has been 10 days since anyone has mentioned it. If you would read my post entitled "A general note to everyone..." dated March 21, you will see that there really is no need to reply at all, let alone be rude. So grow up please.

you're absolutely right.
we should all do what is best for you, since obviously you are the center of the universe.
if you tried that in a real life game, people would toss you out the door. ( real life players hate cheaters )
now grow up and stop whining

well i attempted to make it a 5 point match - but since there were so many ways to set up the game - i didn't know what i was doing there. Honestly i see no point in playing backgammon matches where you can't double :-)

:)) thank you.

Well there are a couple of things you can do.

1. Check out the Anti-Backgammon Ratings and pick someone lower on the list and try to invite them to a game.

To post in the waiting room - When you see the "100 = BKR = 2700" - Change the 2700 to something lower. (NOTE: A while back, I think I was reading somewhere that this did not work correctly - but it may have been fixed by now.) But if you Include the unrated players, some great player may join since they may have not played many games yet.

ALSO - before you send the game to the waiting room, you have the option of writing a message for opponent. I would put in there that you new, and would like to play someone who is not going to win quickly.

Hope this information helps!

Ugh - are you having fun yet? Time to get back on-topic! :-)

BBW (BIG BAD WOLF)

help im one of the worst anti bg players here and i cant work out how to put a game in the waiting room so that realy good people dont pick up the game, and im probably being thick but i cant find where it explains how to do it sooo can some one tell me please, its a brill game but i get a bit diheartened trying to play against very very good people

Hi !
Can`t anyone fix that error !?
It`s bad for this good site!!

Here is a good example of how the rules are wrong on this site.

Here is the Link: LINK HERE

In the example above, I'm black - I rolled a 1&5. Now the game here would have let me just move the "1" from 2 spot to the 1 spot... leaving the "5" dice to do nothing.

The rules should make me move with both of my dice if I can (which I did) - but this is a good example of when it would have been better for my game to cheat and only use my "1" dice.

But even if there was a cube, the game you're playing is a single game anyways.

hmmm.. ok, ty-

Nope, there is no doubling cube yet.

Hello! I am brand new to this site, and set up a "crowded" backgammon game. My question to all & anyone - I don't see anything anywhere about doubling. Does this site use the cube in backgammon?? I would appreciate info thanks you! - iggi

Looks like all black's pieces are off the board. hmmmm

my game http://www.brainking.com/game/ShowGame?g=75992 says i have no legal moves. the display showes some of my pieces in, but not all. I cant't see any others

First off, if you care to read my posts again, I never claimed the rule is bad, nor did i claim the rule shouldn't be used. I simply questioned it. Many of you put words in my mouth and claimed that i thought the rule was bad and shouldn't be used.

Also, I would appreciated if anyone who cares to reply do it in a friendly manner. As you can tell, there certainly isn't many people who agree with me here, and there are a lot who disagree with me here. So even if i keep my view, what do you figure the chances are that i will get my way? Very slim, and i know that. So there is really no reason to yell or be rude. Thank you.

Well you could change the rule in chess to allow a 3-1 knight move only being allowed if you are in check if you want it to apply to fewer situations but that I feel still misses the point. What I am trying to explain is not the number of moves it actually applies to but how you think about the game. If a 3-1 knight move was allowed then clearly every move you make you would have to take into account that your opponent had that option as indeed you would too. It is the same with backgammon, you must think about what your opponents rolls can be and how they can move them and also what your next roll could be and how you can move that given any possible move your opponent makes. Knowing that your opponent or you could make a move that allows only one die to be used, whereas the rules state both must be used if possible, will then come into many more moves you make than appear likely at first sight, and therein lies the problem. I do like Big Bad Wolf's analogy of the en-passant move at chess but would also say I feel that this backgammon rule affects many more moves than that would at chess.

As I said before though, without a cube, even if the rule is fixed we still won't have true backgammon, it will just be nearer is all. Anyone here could beat the current world champion in a 1 point match, I doubt anyone would if it was 21 points!!

Thats the whole point Kevin, if only one person is changing the rule, then he is chaning the game...
When everyone follows the SAME rules, than the game remains fair, and not to the advantage of one player...

Well if I were to compare the problem with Backgammon with a move in Chess - I would compare it to the "en passant" in Chess. A lot of "non-expirenced" chess players do not even know about the "en passant" rule - just like many "non-expirenced" backgammon players dose not know about the rule being discussed.

My Opinion: The rule in Backgammon should be fixed when there is time for Fencer to do it. Is it VERY important? Well not to me - but apparently for others it is. I would like to see if fixed soon, but I can live without it for now! Those are my thoughts. :-)

Yes, it was very well said, RsBaby. But how does changing how a piece moves in chess the same as how a move can be made only in certain situations the same? If the rule in chess was changed so that knights could moved 3-1 and/or 2-1 it would change the whole game, it's strategy, everything. If this rule in backgammon is not used, it is still very close to backgammon. In comparison, very few moves are changed. So if you are going to give an example as comparison, please come up with an example so that the rule only affects considerably few moves of the game, not every one. Thank you.

Very well said, any other way of playing gammon would be cheating...

EXCELLENTLY put, RsBaby!!! I was hoping someone better at putting it in words would comment.

Well lets look at chess shall we? Why does a knight move in a 2-1 "L" shape? Why not a 3-1 "L" shape? That certainly isn't "The whole game" as you put it. Now suppose here you could move your knight 3-1 as well as 2-1, would you say well it sometimes suits me to be able to do that so it's ok or would you instead pass a comment that the game wasn't being played to the rules? It is the same with backgammon. You keep asking why that is the rule. The answer to that is that if you understand the die roll possibilities and you understand that this rule applies then it is paramount as to how you move prior to the situation arising to avoid leaving yourself where having to play both dice will hurt you. Similarly you can create situations by using a backgammon tactic known as killing numbers to place your opponent in that same situation. You say it is not common, well it certainly isn't rare but what is common, though you may not realise it, is that many moves are made with the idea in mind of creating that situation, though not all will ever materialise.

To finish I would just like to deal with your comment "It would be fine if every piece could move like that through the whole game, although it wouldn't be chess." That is exactly the point, it may be fine although what we are playing certainly isn't backgammon. Having said that, without a cube in use which is far more fundamental to the game, then even if this is corrected what you are playing certainly isn't backgammon either, as cube action accounts for over 50% of the skill at the game. Regard it as a practice game for the real thing but even if you can play well here don't fool yourself you know how to play backgammon as when/if you do ever play the real game you will soon find out how little of the game you do actually understand.

i'm in a game right now, where i could have done it, but didn't, to me it would be cheating, and i probably could have assured myself a win, now i'm wide open, but that's the game, i certainly couldn't play any gammon games with you kevin.