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17. Julio 2006, 15:59:34
pentejr 
Asunto: Well, shoot...
My goal was to get into the top 50 in all gammon variants except anti and then start an invitational, multi-point, random gammon tournament with those 5 variants, inviting only those who were also top 50 in all 5. Even that list was very small at the time--5 or 6 players when I looked. But I'm not there yet, and alanback is leavning. Oh well.

17. Julio 2006, 10:02:03
Hrqls 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
Thad: in december we had a somewhat similar list.

i dont think the 'show subject' link worked at that time already .. and i am not sure if alanback was on this site for real already :)

anyway here are 2 posts with lists :
http://brainking.com/nl/Board?bc=26&ngi=448298
http://brainking.com/nl/Board?bc=26&ngi=448120

17. Julio 2006, 04:32:55
Thad 
Asunto: Re:
KotDB: I suggested those to Fencer once. He didn't seem to interested. :-(

I would LOVE to have them on my main page right between my 'Your best BKR' & 'Your best rating positions'!

17. Julio 2006, 04:21:03
Peón Libre 
Asunto: Re:
Thad: Yes, it is. It's too bad BrainKing doesn't use the Glicko rating system -- we could get RDs into the mix.

Perhaps, rather than looking at BKRs directly, we should look at percentile ranks.

17. Julio 2006, 04:08:10
Thad 
Asunto: Re:
KotDB: Your second point is an excellent one.

I suppose you could compare each player's BKR in each game to the mean and find out who has the highest weighted average above each mean, highest deviation, or something similar.

This is getting quite complicated. ;-)

17. Julio 2006, 04:00:26
Peón Libre 
Asunto: Re:
Ouch. I didn't mean to post that all in bold. If I weren't a pawn I would fix that.

17. Julio 2006, 03:59:38
Peón Libre 
Asunto: Re:
Thad, grenv: I thought of that, and I see two problems.

First, if we're attempting to answer alanback's original question, I think we have to have some requirement of experience in all five games. Otherwise our newly crowned Champion-Of-All-Five-Positive-Gammon-Games will be, depending on whether we count provisional BKR in individual games, either 02i (who has provisional BKRs in three games and is unrated in the other two) or sergey82 (who has a very high established BKR in Backgammon but has not played the other four games). Would you declare someone the winner of a pentathlon if he had only participated in one or three of the five events?

Second (and perhaps more important), it is meaningless to directly compare a BKR from one game to a BKR from another game. Even though we all started with BKRs of 1300, the rating distributions tend to drift upward over time, and this does not necessarily happen at the same rate for all games. As of a few minutes ago, the median ratings on the lists of established BKR were 2044 for Backgammon, 1714 for Nackgammon, 1703 for Backgammon Race, 1677 for Crowded Backgammon, and 2029 for Hyper Backgammon. This suggests, for example, that a BKR of 1700 in Crowded Backgammon is better than a BKR of 2000 in Backgammon. Any comparison of BKR weighted by number of games played will be biased in favor of those who play mostly Backgammon and Hyper Backgammon.

I claim that linear combinations of BKRs can be meaningfully compared only if the weighting is the same for each player.

17. Julio 2006, 03:12:14
grenv 
Asunto: Re:
Modificado por grenv (17. Julio 2006, 03:13:43)
Thad: Yes it would seem so, but I only skimmed the thread since so many messages were new.

But I disagree that the rating would be provisional just because one type was missing or low number of games. We need to stipulate that the games are essentially the same for this exersize.

17. Julio 2006, 03:09:49
Thad 
Asunto: Re:
grenv: Might I suggest the following:

BKR * games played for each variant.

Then add the total and divide by total games played.


Isn't that what I said? ;-)

17. Julio 2006, 03:08:07
grenv 
Might I suggest the following:

BKR * games played for each variant.

Then add the total and divide by total games played.

People playing only one variant are therefore not punihed and a somewhat realistic BKR is reached (i.e BKR based on 25 games not counting for as much as one based on 500 games).

17. Julio 2006, 01:57:09
Thad 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
KotDB: Weigh the BKRs based on the number of games of each type played. That should give a decent BKR for all types. If a player has not played at least four (since that's what BK requires to have a rating in any game) games of each particular variant, then they would be unrated for purposes of this discussion and if they have not completed at least 25 games of each type, then they would be provisional. I'm not sure if anyone has completed enough games of all types, but perhaps someone else can look that up. ;-)

17. Julio 2006, 01:46:23
Peón Libre 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
Chicago Bulls: No, not zero. The default BRK is 1300.

Yes, of course it's a question of definitions. This whole thread has essentially been about how to define overall strength in these five games. I've proposed one plausible quantitative definition. It's obviously not perfect; it inherits all the flaws of the BKR system, and it may have additional ones. I'm not convinced it's the best definition, but I haven't thought of one which is clearly better.

17. Julio 2006, 00:15:47
Chicago Bulls 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
KotDB: One reasonable measure of overall strength might be average BKR across the five games. I doubt you'll find anyone who can top alanback's 2160.

And what if someone has not played 3 variants for example? We will put 0 to calculate his mean BKR value? So i don't think this is a reasonable way.....
And to measure what...? Overall strength? How do you define overall strength......?

17. Julio 2006, 00:08:16
Chicago Bulls 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
alanback: Leaving on top? Well yes if you define top as the top 5. But no, if you define it to be number 1. If you define it as the best overall with statistics on Brainking then probably yes.....
If you define it generally then no, we don't know for sure.....

You said: "I have been in the #1 spot in most of them at one time or another in the past"
The point is: If you start reminiscing the past for successes then you are already history!

Anyway it's a shame you will leave, but oh well. You know better:-) Do you intend to return someday.....?

17. Julio 2006, 00:01:54
Peón Libre 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
SafariGal: But what if no one ranked #1 in one game has sufficiently strong credentials in the others to be considered the best overall player? As it turns out, of the five top-ranked players, only arpa has established BKRs in all five games. Do you really consider 54th, 4th, 10th, 1st, and 24th better than 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 5th, and 4th?

One reasonable measure of overall strength might be average BKR across the five games. I doubt you'll find anyone who can top alanback's 2160.

16. Julio 2006, 22:52:12
alanback 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
SafariGal: Well, I asked for your opinion and you gave it. Thanks for your view. One reason for my posting was that I did feel somewhat deficient in not being #1 in any variant.

However, as has been pointed out, I have been in the #1 spot in most of them at one time or another in the past. Most recently I was #1 in Backgammon Race about a month ago.

16. Julio 2006, 19:08:49
Hrqls 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
SafariGal: i wouldnt be surprised if he was #1 of one of them in the past though :)

16. Julio 2006, 14:52:30
SafariGal 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
alanback: it would seem fair to me that someone claiming the "top" would at least be #1 ranked in 1 of the variants. It appears to me you are not!! So I refute your claim. Your claim is a personal assessment of yourself and others and it not the perception of others. I would consider you "very very good" at best. Far far better than I

15. Julio 2006, 10:33:52
Hrqls 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
Vikings: hehe .. he will just tumble down head first ;)

15. Julio 2006, 01:50:17
Vikings 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
alanback: you can't leave, you aren't on top of all of your stairs

14. Julio 2006, 23:37:02
gambler104 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
alanback: Well, I am not quite as good as you alanback, but I also hope to get there some day. I am top 30 in crowded, race, and hyper, but my backgammon and nackgammon rankings are rather low.

14. Julio 2006, 22:51:21
alanback 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
LionsLair: I hope I am here long enough to see you accomplish your goal!

14. Julio 2006, 20:49:30
Hrqls 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
LionsLair: dont worry, i will be there with you :)

(maybe i already was in the past ? ;))

14. Julio 2006, 19:57:58
LionsLair 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
alanback: leaving on top is a good thing, but given a little bit of time(because I haven't completed as many games as yourself) I think I can make it into the top 5-10 players in 6 of 6 of the gammon variants(including anti-)
...and if not, the level you raised the bar to will be fun trying to accomplish...

14. Julio 2006, 19:00:49
Sylfest Strutle 
Asunto: World Championship
TMG is showing some of the matches live from the World Championship in Monte Carlo.

12. Julio 2006, 19:50:57
alanback 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
Chicago Bulls: I would amend your comment to say that eventually neither of us will care to make any claims, since we will have left ego behind; otherwise, I can't contradict you!

12. Julio 2006, 19:20:49
Chicago Bulls 
Asunto: Re: Leaving on top?
alanback: I'm presently in the top 5 in all 5 positive gammon games, and there is nobody who is ahead of me in two of them. Anyone else have a better claim?

I have one: I claim that there is a number of years from now that both of us will would not be able to make any more claims....
While many can question your claim nobody can do the same with mine....

12. Julio 2006, 18:32:36
alanback 
Asunto: Leaving on top?
I've decided to quit playing here and on Dailygammon to save time for other interests. Since I'm finishing my games and tournaments, I'll still be around for quite a while; but as I survey my standings here, it seems to me I have a pretty good claim to be the top player of gammon games (excluding antibackgammon) on the site. I'm presently in the top 5 in all 5 positive gammon games, and there is nobody who is ahead of me in two of them. Anyone else have a better claim?

10. Julio 2006, 20:03:49
Adaptable Ali 
Asunto: Re:
Hrqls: Yes i posted my post on the Brainking board, and he said the same, but thank you anyway. Lo)

10. Julio 2006, 09:47:11
Hrqls 
Asunto: Re:
WatfordFC: i asked fencer and he told me that such tournaments (with entry fees (brains)) wont be removed over time .. they will just keep waiting until enough players are signed up

he will fix this so that the tournaments will be removed after time and when that happens then the players will get their entry fees returned to them

9. Julio 2006, 20:25:56
Hrqls 
Asunto: Re:
WatfordFC: ah ok ... then i dont know either .. good question :)

9. Julio 2006, 19:51:46
Adaptable Ali 
Asunto: Re:
Hrqls: The brains are deducted as soon as you put your name down for the tournament.

9. Julio 2006, 19:51:07
Adaptable Ali 
Asunto: Re:
Vikings: Yes i am sorry, i didnt explian it correctly, yes your correct , i was talking about a non-started tournament.

9. Julio 2006, 19:22:42
Hrqls 
Asunto: Re:
Vikings: lol .. neither do i .. even the 2 of us combined have zero brains ;)

9. Julio 2006, 19:22:00
Vikings 
Asunto: Re:
Hrqls: don't ask me, I don't have any brains

9. Julio 2006, 19:19:43
Hrqls 
Asunto: Re:
Vikings: ah! thats true .. never thought about those tournaments which dont start :)

when does the player actually pay the brains ? when the tournament starts or when (s)he signs up ?

9. Julio 2006, 19:18:29
Vikings 
Asunto: Re:
Hrqls: I think that she is talking about tournements that some people sign up for that never get enough people to start and eventually time out on the tournement page

9. Julio 2006, 19:13:21
Hrqls 
Asunto: Re:
WatfordFC: when doesnt a game go ahead ? does a game ever stop without giving a winner & loser or as a draw ?

9. Julio 2006, 12:37:47
Adaptable Ali 
If you sign up to a game where brains are required for the entry fee, and the game doesnt go ahead, do you get your brains refunded?

6. Julio 2006, 13:42:20
lovelysharon 
we made many moves per day.. .lol... took a lot less than 22 years.. lol ... also was over way before any action points...

6. Julio 2006, 02:10:06
Kili 
Asunto: Re:
grenv: I hope that you are a good mathematician who do bad sums

6. Julio 2006, 02:02:33
grenv 
Asunto: Re:
Matarilevich: Yes. April 12, 2052

6. Julio 2006, 02:00:20
Kili 
Asunto: Re:
grenv: Could you calculate the end of this match?

6. Julio 2006, 01:55:47
grenv 
Asunto: Re:
Matarilevich: 3 days per move x 996 x 2 + vacation = about 22 years. Good thing they moved a little quicker, but still.

6. Julio 2006, 01:51:42
Kili 
Asunto: Re:
WatfordFC: 996 x 2 = 1992 + win = 1997 points for $$$ Jason $$$

6. Julio 2006, 01:48:10
Adaptable Ali 
Asunto: Re:
Matarilevich: OMG!! lol WOW

6. Julio 2006, 01:44:09
Kili 
Asunto: Re:
WatfordFC: Maybe Jason us Sharon 996 moves

6. Julio 2006, 01:38:32
Adaptable Ali 
Does anybody know what the most moves in anti-backgammon is??

5. Julio 2006, 22:10:00
jryden 
Asunto: Re: illegal move?
grenv: Okay, I didn't consider that distinction. I was just looking a the bug list and saw a similar comment about it related to crowded. Well then, good for me :)

5. Julio 2006, 22:05:59
skipinnz 
Asunto: Re: illegal move?
jryden:not illegeal as you used both dice , just good luck you could bear off.

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