The Usurper:   Since when did polls become scientific data?  Those are perhaps the weakest points in your argument. 

I saw a poll where two thirds of the people think that one third of the people are ignorant idiots.:

Bernice: I thought subjects were allowed to be changed? my bad

By THOMAS HARGROVE
Scripps Howard News Service
More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East, according to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll.
The national survey of 1,010 adults also found that anger against the federal government is at record levels, with 54 percent saying they "personally are more angry" at the government than they used to be.
Widespread resentment and alienation toward the national government appears to be fueling a growing acceptance of conspiracy theories about the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
Suspicions that the 9/11 attacks were "an inside job" _ the common phrase used by conspiracy theorists on the Internet _ quickly have become nearly as popular as decades-old conspiracy theories that the federal government was responsible for President John F. Kennedy's assassination and that it has covered up proof of space aliens.
Seventy percent of people who give credence to these theories also say they've become angrier with the federal government than they used to be.
Thirty-six percent of respondents overall said it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East."

"Only 10 Percent Believe Oswald Acted Alone

(CBS) Thirty-five years after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, conspiracy theories and charges of an official government cover-up resonate with the American public, according to a new CBS News poll.

Most Americans still remain suspicious of the lone gunman conclusion of the Warren Commission Report and skeptical that the truth will ever be learned. Only one in 10 Americans believes that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. More than seven times as many think Oswald did not act alone.

The same large majority of Americans believes there was an official government cover-up. By 74 percent to 13 percent, the public thinks there was an official cover-up to keep the public from learning the truth about the assassination."

The Usurper:  Or you truly have diseased thinking.  A sheeple.

Artful Dodger: The second line of defense for those who eschew real debate, which is really an extension of the first line, is to accuse others who point out unpleasant truths of being insane or mentally ill. Again, it ignores facts & begs the question of what the evidence indicates. And it will be an effective strategy only insofar as its recipients have not informed themselves sufficiently on the subject under discussion...in this case the truth about 9/11. It will always be effective to admirers of Bill O'Reilly. lol

IT'S A CONSPIRACY!

I want to forgo the niceties of the hot towel and go straight for the jugular on this one. My goal here is not to bust any of these four conspiracy theories; that has all been done much more effectively elsewhere. What I am trying to do here is to build a chain of evidence to show a progressively deteriorating epidemic of world-wide insanity, of truly diseased thinking -- not just a misunderstanding or difference of opinion but real, diagnosable mental illness. I want to get to that disease in a minute -- and the cause of it too -- but first let's examine what some people claim to believe in and the mountains of sand one has to carry in order to bury one's head so deep.

He really could have stopped here and that would have been enough for me.  I really think he captures it best in two words:  "diseased thinking."  That pretty much says it all.  So what do these diseased thinkers come up with? 

*We never landed on the moon, we faked it in a hollywood studio. 

*Oswald was framed.  President Kennedy was shot from the front but the body was secretly taken from Air Force One to Walter Reed Army Hospital where extensive surgery 'reversed' the trajectory of the wounds to make it look like poor patsy Oswald was the real assassin.

*The DaVinci Code

*Chemtrails: New World Order depopulation agenda

* Stephen King killed John Lennon. (Steve Lightfoot)
* WWII was staged. It never really happened. The Illuminati employed elaborate special effects, stage magic, and phony journalism to scare the world into pacifism. (Donald Holmes)
* The doomed Franklin Expedition was sent to the Arctic not only to find the Northwest Passage, but to secretly investigate UFO sightings that had been reported since the 1700s. The men were captured, experimented upon, and eaten by giant aliens. (Jeffrey Blair Latta)
* The 1939 War of the Worlds radio broadcoast was a psychological warfare study funded by C.D. Jackson on behalf of the Rockefeller Foundation, designed to find out how Americans would react to an enemy invasion. Funny... in a trailer for his mockumentary F is for Fake, Orson Welles did say the WoW broadcast had "secret sponsors". (Daniel Hopsicker)
* Aspartame, flouride, genetically modified foods, and vaccines are used specifically to keep us sick and open to suggestion, and/or as part of a secret depopulation plan designed by the world's elite.


Can you add to this list?  ;)

Bernice: I'm not preventing you from talking about Obama or anything else you'd like. :o)

The Usurper: I thought we were talking politics and Obama....you arrive out of the wild blue yonder (how is Mindy by the way) and start on 911....life does go on, in some places :)

Bernice: Most of my posts have been been specifically designed to answer objections that others have posted. None of my posts have been designed to please you. :o)

Bernice:

lets change the name of this fellowship to "Usurpers 911 theories"

Bloody hell isn't anybody going to put it to rest and get on with life??

Do we have any 2nd world war veterans, or holocaust survivors, or similar? We probably do but they let things rest.

sheeeeesh!!

Jim Dandy:  I've never heard of him and now I know why.  He's one of the best arguments against any and all conspiracy theories.  IMO.  When I run into people like him, (Rosie is in his league) I know to stay away from anything they say. 

Snoopy:  She's an unstable woman.  I think the state of California needs to consider if she's able to care for those kids.  Clearly she's not.  No money.  No home.  No nothing.  And the doctor that implanted those 8 embryos should have his licenses revoked. 

Tuesday: Thank you. :o)

An argument is made that, if 9/11 was an inside job, why have whistleblowers not exposed it? And since they haven't, 9/11 must not have been an inside job. It is also contended, in this argument, that whistleblowing is a fairly easy, straightforward procedure.

In answer, first a few questions:

1. How many years did the Manhattan Project operate to produce the Bomb, before the public became aware of its existence? And how many people were involved in the project?

2. How many decades did the NSA operate before it became public knowledge, even though its budget was far larger than the budget for the CIA?

3. How many decades did Operation GLADIO perform its clandestine functions in Western Europe, before it was exposed in a BBC Documentary in the early '90s? Have you even heard of Operation GLADIO?

Here are some further questions to consider:

4. How likely is it that the major news media, which are owned by a handful of corporations owned & operated by wealthy men with a clear stake in how news is reported (or not reported), would go out of their way to report on high crimes, from which they garner profits in multitudinous ways?

5. How likely is it that a Black Ops soldier, say one who helped plant explosives in the WTC, would step forward & confess, man of conscience that he assuredly must be?

6. How likely is it that a government official involved either in the planning or the events of 9/11, or else in its cover-up, will suddenly gain a conscience and expose himself or herself to prison, or worse?

Having asked these questions, a simple google search on 9/11 whistleblowers is nevertheless very profitable & revealing. Here are some examples:

1. 9/11 Investigation Spawns Whistleblower Movement (a response to the 9/11 Commissions Report)

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0904/091304c1.htm


2. Ming the Mechanic: 9/11 Whistleblower Fired (this is about Kevin Ryan, the head of the Environmental Health Laboratory Div. of Underwriter's Laboratory, which is the lab that originally certified the steel used in WTC construction)

http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-001420.htm


3. The Bombshell Memo: FBI Agent Coleen Rowley's Memo to FBI Director Robert Mueller

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020603/memo.html


4. Where are the 9/11 Whistleblowers? (an essay)

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/roberts/index.html


5. The Case of Sibel Edmonds, FBI Translator

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2008/01/25/on_fbi_whistle_blower_sibel_edmonds


6. Richard Andrew Grove, employee in the WTC & on the scene

http://www.freewebs.com/abigsecret/Grove.html


7. The 9/11 Whistleblowers (a whole slew of online interviews by Alex Jones, with the likes of Andreas Von Buelow, former German Defense Minister & Minister of Technology; Michael Meecher, former UK Environment Minister; FBI Special Agent Robert Wright; David Schippers, the prosecuting attorney in the Clinton impeachment trial; Sibel Edmonds, FBI Translator, etc. etc.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/Pages/230904_whistleblowers.html


The biggest obstacle, perhaps, in impartially weighing evidence about 9/11 is the deep-seated & well-founded fear of the terrible implications if 9/11, in fact, was an inside job. It would require us to reevaluate so many things about our worldview that we formerly took for granted. It would expose us to knowledge of a danger far greater than we previously suspected. Most importantly, it would call on us to take a stand against very powerful entities with a formidable arsenal of weapons, both technological & psychological.

Nevertheless, truth matters, and truth is truth. And it is through ignorance that people are enslaved. What's more, people matter...the 3,000 who died in the attacks, and the many more thousands who have died since & are still dying at the hands of those who used those attacks as a pretext for an imperial agenda.

Vikings: Thank you....

Bernice: I am always getting things the wrong way round and left instead of right lmbo!

Artful Dodger: the court threw out the Pennsylvania case that was before the election siting that the prosecutor had no standing to sue, last I eard, Judge Roberts allowed California suits to go on as they were brought by legislators and had standing, but the last I heard anything was a couple of days before the inogeration

Mousetrap: with the intense heat melting the beams, the weight of the floors above the crash made the top floors fall on it then it was like a pancake theory the rest of the way down, imagine a brick dropping down on a three story card house, they are going to go straight down

Bernice: It was over budget, one of the cuts was in the asbestosis retardant that was around the main beams, they stopped using it somewhere around the 65th floor, not exactly sure which one

Mousetrap: think of the house of cards theory (poor quality materials).....it doesnt topple over it collapses in on itself.....

Bernice: I have not heard that one but it surprises me because I would have though poor quaility materials would have actually caused it to topple over and not vice versa. The better the material the less it would be inclined to topple. But then I am not an expert in construction.
It did look like a controled toppling though rather than a crash.

Did I or did I not read/hear somewhere that poor quality materials were used in the construction of the twin towers and that this contributed to the collapse in on itself instead of toppling over as expected?

I just have a feeling Ive seen that somewhere???

Jim Dandy: My bad. Now that it is buffering, I see it is an interview with Alex Jones, not Steven Jones. The first picture before buffering shows Steven Jones, the BYU professor I mentioned.

Jim Dandy: Thanks for the link.

Actually, that is not Alex Jones but Steven Jones. He is a BYU professor of physics, whose classroom documentary I own and is highly recommended. Jones is another conservative, a Republican and a lover of Ronald Reagan. That is really beside the point, except as evidence in favor of my contention that alternate theories about 9/11 are not merely a Left-wing political phenomenon.

The Usurper: Here is a fairly recent appearance of Griffen with Jones,Nov 08

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=David+Ray+Griffin%2Calex+jones&emb=0&aq=f#

Czuch: You seem to be assuming that all evidence is either equal or nonexistent. Therefore, all argument is really speculation that comes down to "he said, she said," and thus fruitless.

My argument is that evidence does exist, that some evidence is better than others, that human beings are naturally endowed with an ability to sift through evidence and make sense of the world.

The towers, for example, came down at virtually freefall speed, according to video evidence. That is evidence. This point then falls to architects, physicists, engineers, and the like to produce tests, make calculations, and come to conclusions about how that might or might not be possible.

However, even folks like you me have common sense. And common sense is one of our greatest assets, not to be undermined. How could these towers fall as if there were no resistance at all, as fast as a rock falls through space, when we both know that the massive steel columns and concrete of which the towers were constructed must apply some resistance?

Without considering anything else, just this one piece of video evidence, we can surmise that demolition rather than gravity is the better answer. For one thing, that is what controlled demolition does. And that is what unaided gravity does not, and never has before or since.

From there, we look at possible aids to gravity. We do some experiments & test the results. But really, common sense wins here, with those who choose to utilize it.

Artful Dodger: If the Rev you're referring to David Ray Griffin, he is not a fundamentalist, which means endtimes, Armegeddon, Israel, etc., are not subjects he dwells upon or considers important, at least in the fundamentalist sense...at least to be the best of my knowledge. If he did, I might think less of his analysis.

I defended Rosie simply because I noticed a few people here getting particular glee out of ridiculing her. If she riled you up, she can't be all bad. :o)

Alex Jones & David Ray Griffin have very little in common in terms of personality characteristics. Jones is outrageous, Griffin is reserved. Jones, as Jim Dandy says, tends to see conspiracies under every rock. Griffin focuses on 9/11.

I wouldn't be too hard on Alex, though. He uncovers a lot. As such he does more in the cause of truth than 99% of the journalists in America. And you will be more informed reading his website than watching Fox News or MSNBC.

Czuch: I don't equate a character flaw with hating George Bush. lol

My mother loves Obama and I sympathize with her but firmly disagree.

I think neither my mother, or Rosie, nor you, is a nutcase. I'll stick by my position on Rosie, in that courage and character are the hallmarks of her outspoken disdain of Bush.

Charles Martel: I'm pretty openminded,but Jones lost me a few years ago.Phil Shneider's story is one of the few I find may be legit,he was murdered a number of years ago

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3403113138974316606&hl=en

Jim Dandy: and these types are always fun to have around,, otherwise things would get boring!Jones and others are what sarcasm and eyerolling were invented for!

Artful Dodger: Alex Jones is a conspiracy theory freak, very much on the fringe.I used to get a kick out of him and his website (Prison Planet) but after awhile you learn he thinks everyone including Chef Gordon Ramsey is part of a grand plan of The New World Order.

Snoopy:


I dont know who is worse, a woman who begs for cash on a website after having 8 more kids on top of the 6 she already cannot afford... or the 2 publicists, who are going to reap a percentage of all the cash they can rake in for her celebrity!!!!

for these poor babies and there crazy mother

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032600/


she has her own web site asking for donations which is the same has begging

Artful Dodger:And Usurper, you'll be judged by the company you keep.  Alex Jones is a thug, Rosie a blowhard.  As for the Rev, I don't know about him but I think all this nonsense has a lot to do with religion and Israel and end times and Armageddon. 

The Usurper:um, Rosie O'Donnell's is a mental case.  She's a far left radical whacko.  Unthinking.  Illogical. 

The Usurper: Two of the alleged FEMA camps are right here in Washington.  One at the airport.  Yeah, hide it in plain sight.

And only the radical fringes see this FEMA threat and all the others are blind to it.

Not very convincing.  I building with a fence around it and barbed wire and a couple of army jeeps is not a concentration camp.  It's a warehouse.

Charles Martel: Didnt you hear??? Wall street bought on the rumor, and sold on the news, its a good sign! LMAO!

Yeah, thats so good, they bought the DOW all the way up to 8000, on the rumor.... yup, wall street really loves this package all right!

The Usurper:

She spoke her convictions & conscience and paid the price. That's a courageous human being and there aren't many like her

You call it courageous to make unsubstantiated accusations... i call it a sign of ignorance, and plain stupidity!

My suggestion would be to not align yourself too closely with a woman like Rosie. I would also guess that Rosie LOVES Obama!

Just because she happens to be on the same side of one issue with you, dont make the huge leap that she could even come as close to making a rational argument for her case as you have.

Rosie is a blow hard, loud mouth who hates George Bush.... she is nothing more than that and never will be! That she agrees with you on one issue, I agree too, the Donald Trumps hair looks stupid, but neither one of us should be using her to champion our fight.

the stimulus package includes 300 million for"green" golf carts.. what happened here?? I hope he does better, but if he has to dance the dance of pelosi and crew... the Dow only dropped 400 points on news of the stimulus being passed... i guess they weren't very stimulated.

The Usurper:

I have still honorably stood my ground & debated my point.


Not really... You have based your argument in documentations that debunk the official conspiracy. Then we have given you documents that debunk those debunkings.(I know, its not really a word)

But we have not debated any specifics fact for fact. From what i gather, if we do that, your argument will come down to something like, "well the government refuses to release those pictures" or something like that, right? Or, "its not likely that all 3 buildings would fall straight down like they did", right again?

It doesnt make any sense for us to get into a point by point debate, when in the end it comes down to evidence that nobody has?

Your best bet to win a conspiracy debate is to have someone, a live, real person, who was part of this vast conspiracy, an actual eye witness, and like Dan said, in a conspiracy of this magnitude, it would not be hard to find one. But lacking that, the best you have is a he said she said scenario, and that is giving your side a real lot at this point.

There's a woman of character...a real Great American (in Hannity's phraseology). She spoke her convictions & conscience and paid the price. That's a courageous human being and there aren't many like her. I'm glad to be on Rosie O'Donnell's side in this issue (I don't know much about her position specifically except that she raised legitimate questions & was basically fired over it) and she will be remembered & honored as one of the few who speak truth to power.

Artful Dodger: Folks here might try googling "fema camps" and see what comes up.

But who knows for sure? We have buildings which disintegrate by gravity & fire alone, on a single day in history only...and on the same day we have an airliner disappear entirely from the heat of its own fuel-fire...again, on a single day in history only.

So you might be right. Lack of evidence seems to prove things whereas clear evidence seems to disprove them. Maybe there are really no FEMA camps.

Alex can be noisy, and I think that is a drawback. Yet his boldness, as to his general character, is much needed & stands him in good stead. He is a fearless investigator & he is independant. Bottom line, he's pretty much right on the money with whatever he's shouting about.

was this man the author of TNP???........thats sounds terroristic to me..........whacko is very close me thinks but then am I following you AD because I dont really understand your politics, but some of the things he says are "over the top" in my opinion and just how much is original or is he like another person that occasionally frequents this board.....A CCp merchant?????

The Usurper:  cept there are no FEMA camps.  But seriously, Alex went over the line in that video.  Someone should have deck the loudmouth.  So much for the free speech he claims to support.  Just that he probably means his free speech.  And those that he disagrees with he'll just shout down (as he did nonstop in the video).  Rush is better behaved that that.

Artful Dodger: lol. That may just happen. The irony is that you think you're safe!

I gotta run. As always, I enjoyed....