(V): My point is that it would not really be genocide if you agree to have no grievance against me for any future retaliations to your unprovoked attacks!

Simply put... we agree on one last and final land agreement....and agree to not involve the other in any military or terrorist or other acts of aggression towards each other.

The world also agrees that any future aggressions will result in the forfeiture of anything already agreed upon, meaning all bets are off, and the international community will back the non aggressor in any and all actions against the aggressor!

Simple, take some land, be happy or die, your choice!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7815929.stm

Peace through ideas leading to a solution.

Czuch: Wrong Czuch.....

The Contracting Parties,

Having considered the declaration made by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its resolution 96 (I) dated 11 December 1946 that genocide is a crime under international law, contrary to the spirit and aims of the United Nations and condemned by the civilized world,

Recognizing that at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity, and

Being convinced that, in order to liberate mankind from such an odious scourge, international co-operation is required,

Hereby agree as hereinafter provided:

Article I: The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.

Article IV: Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article V: The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention, and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III.

.. It's called the Geneva Convention and was signed after the events during WWII.

And here is a list of those who have not signed...

http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/gencon/nonparties-alpha.htm

I don't see the USA, Israel or the UK on that list on non signers.

(V): Genocide is against the law and is considered a war crime.


Not if it is agreed upon that is a condition of the agreement, whichever side breaks the agreement will be wiped of the map, if both sides say okay, well then it aint illegal anymore

Jim Dandy and Art: The Israel army fully admits that they have killed about 130 Hamas... where as 660 (approx) Palestinians have been killed since this action began. ie 530 (approx) civilians have been killed.

And btw.. where are people to run to in Gaza? There is nowhere to go. Even certain elements within Israel (B'Tselem) recognise that this war is wrong and that no-one will win.

And the International community is putting pressure on both sides. It's no good getting Hamas to stop if Israel carries on as that will just start Hamas off again.

The solution being put forward is for an international force to be in charge of the border crossings to let aid in and keep weapons out.

This reminds me of certain dictatorships of the past that said if one of our people is killed we will execute a hundred of your people... and what happened to them....

(V): It's pretty disgusting how Hamas fires rockets (that they know will be traced by the Israeli army) from schools and hospitals.Cowardly also applies,but life is cheap to them,and they know their propoganda(and this human shield warfare technique) will be swallowed hook line and sinker by many.We can only hope that pressure is placed upon Hamas by the people of Gaza,and the international community,to both stop firing rockets into Israel(they hit a kindergarten yesterday,thank God Israelis are keeping their children home from school) and using the people of Gaza as shields,knowing full well that their fire will be returned to the source.The situation is very sad

nearly 600 dead to 4 Israelies..... over the last ten days.

And now this....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm

What a great war... not

Czuch: Instant annihilation... Genocide is against the law and is considered a war crime. Eg.. one of the reason that we went to war against Saddam and others recently.

And using nukes in such an area close by where much of the world gets it's oil..

.... M.A.D!!! anyway.. doesn't the Americans have MOAB (GBU-43/B) now?

(V): Okay, that is a big problem then now facing Israel, I can understand their reluctance to compromise!


Anyway, If I were with you in charge of a new negotiation agreement attempt, here is where I would go with it.... give the pals enough land to make them complete, I dont know what that is or if it is even reasonable, but I would try to get there, and then one condition would be, that is it, done, no more land no more nothing, and henceforth any actions against Israel by anyone would be met with instant annihilation from the international community, thats it, no second chances, no more negotiations, nothing.... i am sure it wouldnt be too long before we would have to lob nukes everywhere making good on that promise!

Czuch: You think that the idea of the extermination of Jewish people is a recent event.. Look back at the founders of the Protestant faith.

Jim Dandy: Well if a real deal peace plan and a real deal homeland plan for the Palestinians was drawn up and ratified by the Arab states nearby then the Hamas would look foolish if they did turn down such solutions.

And quite frankly I think there are many in Israel who don't want peace, as there are many in other supporting countries of Israel who don't want peace. If they did... why were so many efforts blocked over the years to sort out a real deal?

Artful Dodger: Iran has no borders with Israel. They don't matter that much in an agreement as such over the redrawing of borders do they.

Charles Martel: Israel is far from perfect in their handling of the Palestinian issue,many mistakes have been made,some real head shakers,but you can't make peace with someone who doesn't acknowledge your right to exist,and wants you dead,that's a real deal breaker.This "war" is understandable though,no country should be expected to turn a blind eye to being bombed daily.

I guess it seems like what they really want, and iran is a great example, is the complete extermination and extinction of Israel. That is the ultimate goal, and they will start by getting land, and then it will be something else and then more .... they just hate all Jews, they look at dogs with more respect and esteem than they do jews. Its hard to negotiate or compromise with that, especially if any of those compromises only serves to make you weaker and easier pray.

Jim Dandy: not in 67, and what exactly were their motives during the Suez crisis in 56? But when a country wins a war it usually becomes problematic to occupy it for too long, even claiming it as their own doesn't work for long, of course unless they intend to exterminate or banish the local population.Sooner or later the birth rate will force a settlement...some what like South Africa. bad spelling

Charles Martel: The settlements will be dismantled if (and when) a agreed upon resolution is made.When was this land taken by Israel? during wars? and who started these wars?

I doubt if I lost my money in a casino,that the casino would happily return it.You take your chances in war,they lost.

Czuch: Israel has given back land, but they play a shell game, taking more and creating new settlements at the same time

(V): I'm aware of the history,but I do agree that other Arab countries pay mostly lip service to the Palestinian issue.Hamas doesn't want a resolution,that alone is a deal breaker.

Czuch: No.. I think they will settle for a complete homeland. Which will mean some of their Arab neighbours giving up some land.

Not that hard really, just the sides are to stubborn.

Czuch: Both sides and those who have allowed the situation to go on for decades need slapping. I'd kidnap all the leaders and put them on an island (with hidden cameras) till they got their act together and made a plan that can work. Of course there will need to be comprimises and give and take. But the alternative...

... I lived through the IRA period, I've also seen the end of that period. Nobody can say peace cannot be achieved as the end of the IRA and related hostilities by loyalists proves it can be done.

(V): I think over the years Israel has given back bunches of land, and it has always been too little, where does it end, how much land do they want, I dont think they will ever think they got enough, because they really want it all....

(V): They are just the result of a biased system and idiotic policies regarding the Palestinians.

Sounds like you would make an excellent unbiased mediator....

Czuch: It would entail all sides getting together and sorting out what is needed. A true Palestinian homeland... not two little bits of country, but a whole homeland.

How it may resolve things.... If the Palestinians have a stable living place then the call of extremists will not be so easily heard.

The other alternative is a continuation of the troubles. Even if Hamas is destroyed another group will fill the vacuum sooner then later. Like it use to be the PLO everyone talked about as being the BIG terrorists.

Jim Dandy: Hamas was formed in 1987, the problems started before that. They are just the result of a biased system and idiotic policies regarding the Palestinians.

The Palestinians should have been (through some land given up by their muslim brothers) a complete home land.

Also I find it hard to accept the devilling of the Hamas by USA citizens after the support they gave to the IRA in terms of funds and weapons. Also I find it hard for Americans to denounce terrorism after the many cases of interference and support to terrorist organisations during the cold war, just because the government in power of a country (such as Chile in the 70's) was socialist.

The "School of the Americas" as it was called in a UN report was citied as ""graduating 500 of the worst human rights abusers in the hemisphere."

(V): Who are going to be represented in these peace talks? Hamas are a terrorist organization, they are not a country.... maybe you can clarify exactly what these peace negotiations will look like and how it might resolve things?

Tuesday: Okay, so the wars started, and the innocent people who died, with their screaming and crying relatives, all in the name of your freedom are okay, but the other wars with other innocents dying and their relatives grieving all for the sake of someone elses freedom is not okay.... is that what you are saying???

Artful Dodger: It reminds me of when I would fight with my sister when we were kids.If I started the fight I would be forced to apologise,if my sister started it,we both got repremanded.Israel is in a no win situation,they are expected to take their daily bombings,and smile.Hamas should be blamed for bringing this onto the Palestinian civilians.

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N00/679/37/PDF/N0067937.pdf?OpenElement

going on for years and years and years......

Artful Dodger: Killing will just make it worse not better. Maybe Israel should sit down with the rest of the middle east and work at a plan FULL STOP.

I could be chairman.. and clout anyone who acts like a kid and won't contribute to a lasting peace plan.

Artful Dodger: this problem is longer then a few years Art... it goes back decades. As I said earlier, if certain UN resolutions and security council actions had not been vetoed then maybe we would have already a sustainable peace.

And why target police stations ?

Artful Dodger: Sorry, but both sides are involved. Hama's killing Israelies and Israelies killing Palestinians.

Maybe we should set up a big 1 mile area sq and get all those who want to kill each other in there with just clubs.

Then both civilian populations can have a holiday and watch from the sidelines. AND NOT GET KILLED.

Artful Dodger: And a kid in Gaza is not a victim? That's wrong to dehumanise a whole country just because of some killers.

It's Hama's, Israel and others for letting the situation go on this long. I'm afraid you sound like those in NI who use to justify killing civilians on the side of the IRA just because they were pro IRA.

Czuch: That's the kinda attitude that led to the use of chemical weapons in WWI, the development of the H bomb and onto biological weapons that would kill all sentient life on this planet.

Boys and their toys of mass destruction.

(V): okay, no it is not right for ussr to lob a nuke at us if it was not in retaliation, if we already lobbed a couple at them, then all bets are off and if they nuke us, well too bad for us!

(V): What do you expect??? I mean really, you kill one and i am only allowed to kill one in return?? You need to make them pay and hurt enough to never want to mess with you again, war is not about being fair and playing nice, if you get hit, i say pound them back and make them regret ever messing with you!

Czuch: Not an answer.

Tuesday: Thats right you are not... except that you said all war is wrong and bad, doesnt that include the wars that gave you your freedom too?

How is it different for people to die for your freedom in a war, than people to die for Iraqi future freedom in a war?

Artful Dodger: No. Hamas and Israel are the problem, and that the UN has been blocked from taking action all these years by the USA.

... It's a bit difficult to move when there is no where really safe to move to.

Maybe, they should of just gone in land wise in the first place rather then using highly destructive weapons that no matter what will kill civilians.

And that the death toll is so one sided, just shows... It makes me think almost sometimes that the Israelies have turned into what they hated in some ways. Big bullies with big guns.

(V): Its a cold war silly, what is happening in Israel right now is hardly a cold war.... it is legitimate retaliation and if Hammas is so worried about innocent people they should not lob bombs themselves!

Isabella of Castile Born: 1451; Died: 1504

Isabel La Católica-2

Isabella I of Spain, well known as the patron of Christopher Columbus, with her husband Ferdinand II of Aragon, are responsible for making possible the unification of Spain under their grandson Carlos I. As part of the drive for unification, Isabella appointed Tomás de Torquemada as the first Inquisitor General of the inquisition. March 31, 1492 marks the implementation of the Alhambra Decree; expulsion edicts forcing the removal or conversion of Jews and Muslims. Roughly 200,000 people left Spain; those remaining who chose conversion were subsequently persecuted by the inquisition investigating Judaizing conversos. In 1974, Pope Paul VI opened her cause for beatification. This places her on the path toward possible sainthood. In the Catholic Church, she is thus titled Servant of God.

Queen Mary I Born: 1516; Died: 1558

468Px-Mary1 By Eworth 3

Mary was the only child of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon to live past infancy. Crowned after the death of Edward VI and the removal of The Nine Days Queen-Lady Jane Grey, Mary is chiefly remembered for temporarily and violently returning England to Catholicism. Many prominent Protestants were executed for their beliefs leading to the moniker "Bloody Mary". Fearing the gallows a further 800 Protestants left the country, unable to return until her death. It should be noted that Elizabeth I shares position 10 on this list for her equally bad behavior.

Czuch: That makes them even more innocent. And as for a densely populated area....

.... Ok, supposed during the cold war it got a little heated and the USSR launched some nukes at silo's in the USA and the missile went off target and wiped out an American city through radiation, heat and blast damage.

... You are saying this is ok?

Tuesday: So now i expect your next post to put down all the people who died for your freedom... same as you put down people dying for the freedom of future generations in Iraq?

Tuesday: There are no evil women with egos in history?

(V): A civilian is not innocent if they are forced to be a shield for any military targets..... I put all the blame of any civilians killed directly on the people who use them as shields by putting military instillation in densely populated areas!

tazman7474: So what will you say when the prices go up again???

Its that type of flawed thinking that aggravates me so much about libs.......