(V): The current situation is not normal.

Just because something hasnt happened in your lifetime, doesnt make it paranormal...


Yes, some people will always suffer when jobs are lost and certain industries fail, and some jobs will gain when new industries rise....


You dont seem to care about oil jobs being lost, since they are causing global warming, its no different from a car company that isnt keeping up with the times.

Czuch: ...uh sorry... I meant rice wine, not champagne...

(V): You just never cease to amaze me.... Now you want to compare Americans with no health care coverage (doesnt mean they dont get medical attention when they need it, and free care when they cant afford it) to Chinas millions who eat their own snot out in the rice paddies, and dont even know what a doctor is?

...and you say they are at their peak???? Really??? I am sure if I had a billion people working for me who I could steal from(their productivity wise) I could assume a bunch of the US debt as well.... I guess you should be the one to break the news to the snot eaters that their country is at its peak, and they should uncork the campaign, because happy days are here!

(V): Well any of our so called "shady" actions have nothing to do with our economics directly..... You pointed out how Chinas socialism ( I say communism) cant be a bad economic system since it affords them the ability to buy a lot of US debt, actually making it sound like your point is that their economics are even better than the US?


My point is that their economics might allow their government to buy US debt, but it is at the direct expense of their own people, where billions are in poverty, again, hardly the shining example you seem to think they are

(V):
Please... The USA has acted in manners where such an argument is very shady.

You always seem to be able to confuse debates... we are talking economics and policy right now... you used China as an example of a 'socialist' country with a good economic model , and used the fact that they are well off enough economically to even buy the debt of the US, to back up that claim!

Well, if you think that the government ripping off its own people in order to be able to afford to buy debt from the US as a good thing, well again, thats why we are having this discussion in the first place

Artful Dodger: compete or die.

Its funny, these liberal types seem to understand this concept very well when it comes to industry that they loath, like the oil companies, you dont see them feeling bad that soon enough oil companies will be as extinct as dinosaurs!

How many libs are out there trying to get the government to buy out the oil companies? Its obvious that in the next 100 years or so that we will be on other energy than oil, and at some point these big oil companies will go bankrupt because of this, but is anyone going to feel bad for them and ask the government to help them out????? I bet not!

What about McDonalds, for example??? There will likely be some time when they are no longer a viable company. It might be hard to imagine right now, but some day Mc Donalds will be lost... unless the government buys them out?

Point is, that business is always a risk reward scenario,
Some make it and some do not, some make it for a long time and bust some make it for a short time and bust, but my guess is that over hundreds of years, most will change with the times or bust...

point is, compete or die, oil companies will be dust one day, as will the McDonalds as we know it today... its all good

Czuch: The more I think about this the more I really wonder.... why would we even bother to have legislation through some form of democracy, if there are smarter people out there who know whats best already, and only serve to tell us when we have made bad legislation?????

Like AD said, yes there are constitutional issues etc, but, if we really need some judge to tell us when we made bad legislation, then why not just let these judges make all of our legislation for us??? Why not just be communists?

(V): especially if the legislation is wrong.

Thats one area where we disagree, for sure!

Legislation is never wrong in a democracy, not wrong enough where one person sitting on a bench can tell us how wrong it is..... judges arent meant to override 'bad' choices from a majority....

I mean, why even bother having votes and majority rules, if there are judges that know whats best anyway?????


What, you think 'majority rules' is just some made up fantasy to keep us all happy, until we make a "stupid" choice, and then the really smart people sitting on a bench will make things right for us????

(V): A FACT that the USA has borrowed much from China and imports many 'cheap' goods from China.

Sure we do, and they have as well, thats capitalism at work, but dont tell me that China is some shining example because they can afford to buy all our debt, if I am a corrupt government and have the ability to take most of the money from my minions, and leave most of them in poverty, of course i should have tons of extra cash lying around... You could go to China yourself, maybe, talk to the people there, really, ask them, and my guess is that 90% of them, maybe more, would not tell you a story of how great their lives are!

(V): I have heard of Hawkings.... so what about him? I didnt say smart people cant come up with good ideas in socialist countries. But where are tyhey going to go to put those ideas into practice??? You got it!


....and what about China???? First, they are communist, not socialist, and its pretty easy to have tons of free cash available when you keep your people oppressed and use all of your countries wealth to buy US debt!!!


I really cant believe you would even hold China up as some sort of shining example, to be emulated????? That says enough to me about where your head is at

(V): It's not politics, it's bad ideas.

Politics of socialism is one of those bad ideas....

(V): Labour (a socialist party) has been in power for years and nothing has happened





Thats the biggest problem with socialism.... nothing ever happens! Where is your big industry, or growth, or innovations?????? The more socialist a country is, the less there is.....

Artful Dodger: Here is one I heard today... in my State, they used 600 million of stimulus money to balance the state budget!!!! REALLY????

On top of tht they passed some new taxes, including now I cant take a tax break for the interest on my two mortgages or the insurance for them, my two biggest tax breaks I have!

We have petitions out now to vote for a veto of this new bill, I think that has a chance to reverse it,but we have a liberal governor and a democrat majority, and they are running us dry!

Artful Dodger: I saw her too.... I almost couldnt believe it, really!

And you are right, it was a breath of fresh air to finally see a liberal media type actually do something like that!

Thats all I want, and all any of us should want, for the media to actually just do their job, ask questions and report the news, without bias, and without making the news themselves! Finally!!

Artful Dodger: I did nothing wrong. It was time to move on and give the helm to another.


time to move on so that a glob(yeah, you know, the ones who already moderate any board they want to)can become the main moderator????

Something doesnt smell right.....

Artful Dodger: what did you do now????

(V): what about the killer cop?

(V): ... and everyone else then?

gogul: are you sure gogul isnt code for dano? If you notice, both words dont have the same amount of letters in them, and neither one uses any of the same letters either (except for the o).... coincidence? I think not

(V): We got caught in a spiral of fear,

Really???? I believe that fits right in to what AD is trying to point out..... there are groups of people out there who exist only to ruin freedom and democracy, and they employ terrorist tactics to achieve that goal, and yet all you can see is how WE got caught in a spiral of fear, blame us, we are the aholes for being afraid of people who want to kill us??? We are paranoid?!?!?!?

(V):

(V):

(V): You missed the context of my post Czuch.


Thats a first... it usually the other way around!

Übergeek 바둑이: I think you have it wrong... we are not lovers of peace and democracy, we are lovers of hope and prosperity, its just that peace and democracy are a good means to that end!

To me, the biggest evil in the world is denying people a legitimate atmosphere where they can feel a sense of hope for their future and that of their children!

When a dictator spends all his countries riches on a new palace for himself, while the rest of the world feeds all of his people.... dont we, as the ones feeding them, have a right to do something to effect a change that will allow them to one day feed themselves?

(V): They made it so Iraq's borders were weak and anyone can just walk in.


This soooooo infuriates me to no end!!!!!!

Why do we even need to protect our borders like this in the first place!!!????!!!

It is eveil people with evil intentions that are the scourge of this world... people that would sneak into Iraq just to blow up women and children with the intent to keep Iraqi people from having a prosperous life!!!!!!!!!

Those are the people and the intentions that need to be eliminated!

But those people are not born, they are made, and it is hopeless desperation that makes them!

When people are born into poverty and hopelessness, and their government does nothing to improve this situation, these are the people who end up resenting and hating and who get recruited into blowing themselves up to get back at the evil USA or whatever.....

It is in our national interest to help these people, and not just by giving them food and other aid, but by sowing the seeds that will allow them to feed themselves, and to have hope for a prosperous future, only then will we never have to blame the US for leaving a border unsecured, so some *people* could come in and *mess* everything up!!!!!


I will never apologize for the US, the rest of the world can talk and negotiate and hope and keep their heads in the sand, but the US will take the bull by the horns, yes, we will always have our national interest at heart, but we are noble, and forget anyone who believes otherwise!

Artful Dodger: nice post ad

(V): The point is, it seems to me, that the reasons have been for other than to add more states and increase federal tax revenues.

and like AD said, the world is a very complex place....

Übergeek 바둑이: I guess it depends somewhat on how you define 'imperialism'....

I dont see the US as trying to gain more land or more authority or to conquer necessarily, which is what I think of when I hear 'imperialism'.

I believe we are simply trying to protect our own interests as a sovereign nation. From that point, we have a vested interest in keeping other countries from becoming dangerous to us.

We are dependent on foreign oil sources, so we have an interest in keeping these sources of oil from becoming unstable to the point where it effects our ability to obtain that oil. To me, that is not imperialism, per se.

Now, if we can figure out how to end this dependence, then I dont give a rats ass what these countries do or how they exist, as long as they leave us alone in the process. But as things stand right now, it can hurt the US if these countries are not stable. It just happens that we also believe the best way to make them more stable is for them to be democratic in nature, and to give their people freedom and rights and hope for a prosperous future.

Again, I dont see this as imperialism.....

Übergeek 바둑이: Terrorism and WMDs were a plausible excuse to go to war.



Thats one I can agree with!

(V): Putting people in jail is more expensive Czuch, didn't you know that?


I knew you would say that......

But come on, the UN inspection teams, meetings and mandates, year in and year out, food for oil, blah blah blah....

anywho, it was just the excuse the world needed to help the Iraqi people rid themselves of him and to begin their long road from desperation to hope a and eventually prosperity... never would have happened with saddam at the helm


right war right time right place

I would think the rest of the world would be like..."ballsy Americans for pulling the trigger, now that they have, at least we can get in there and help them out"

had that happened, this thing would have been ended and sorted out better long ago!

Czuch: oh yeah... also, I am a tax paying citizen and the police say, no problem, this guy just stays in his house most of the time, and we will post a police outside his home 24 hours a day 7 days a week, and we will pay someone to go into his house every so often and inspect it, all at my tax expense

Thats not going to cut it for me personally.... I am going to say NO! Stop wasting my money and stop wasting the time for the police who should be doing something better, and just throw this idiot in jail or whatever, never have to use any of my brain to think about this guy ever again.... thats my solution, and we vote on it by the town, and the town members say okay, do it, so it is done and it is the will of the people.

Pedro Martínez:

Now somebody finally gets it!


But seriously, if you have some sort of authority who repeatedly demand of them to produce the guns, or some evidence that they had already gotten rid of them, and this authority continues to threaten serious consequences if they do not comply, this person should not have a big surprise when they wake up one day in custody again

(V): I think they might be still very sore at the USA for supplying Saddam with WMD's that he used against their soldiers during the Iran/Iraq war.




Saddam had WMD, and used them???? Funny, he never gave the UN any evidence that he ever destroyed the ones not used

Maybe thats why we all thought he still had some

(V): Prove what???

I started with the proof...

"No one realized how bad the economy was. The projections, in fact, turned out to be worse. But we took the mainstream model as to what we thought -- and everyone else thought -- the unemployment rate would be."

"Everyone guessed wrong at the time the estimate was made about what the state of the economy was at the moment this was passed."


This is what the Vice president said, he admits they were wrong, that the intel they presented to the US people before the huge stimulus was wrong!

So.. was it a lie when they told us they would create or save 3 million jobs??????

My point is that under Bush, it would have been a lie, and ask him to be impeached for it.... thats all.

(V): Critics such as Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean charged that the Bush and Blair administrations deliberately falsified evidence to build a case for war.[


Well, i contend that obama falsified the benefits of 3 million jobs to build a case for a multi trillion dollar spending spree fraud.....

To me government fraud is government fraud, but you would never know that based on the media perception of fraud!

Late Monday night, Republican National Committee Chief of Staff Ken McKay fired off a complaint to the head of ABCNEWS:

Dear Mr. Westin:

As the national debate on health care reform intensifies, I am deeply concerned and disappointed with ABC's astonishing decision to exclude opposing voices on this critical issue on June 24, 2009. Next Wednesday, ABC News will air a primetime health care reform "town hall" at the White House with President Barack Obama. In addition, according to an ABC News report, GOOD MORNING AMERICA, WORLD NEWS, NIGHTLINE and ABC's web news "will all feature special programming on the president's health care agenda." This does not include the promotion, over the next 9 days, the president's health care agenda will receive on ABC News programming.

Today, the Republican National Committee requested an opportunity to add our Party's views to those of the President's to ensure that all sides of the health care reform debate are presented. Our request was rejected. I believe that the President should have the ability to speak directly to the America people. However, I find it outrageous that ABC would prohibit our Party's opposing thoughts and ideas from this national debate, which affects millions of ABC viewers.

In the absence of opposition, I am concerned this event will become a glorified infomercial to promote the Democrat agenda. If that is the case, this primetime infomercial should be paid for out of the DNC coffers. President Obama does not hold a monopoly on health care reform ideas or on free airtime. The President has stated time and time again that he wants a bipartisan debate. Therefore, the Republican Party should be included in this primetime event, or the DNC should pay for your airtime.

Respectfully,
Ken McKay
Republican National Committee
Chief of Staff

(V): This was due to lack of regulation world wide of the banking system.


So why then the need for a multi trillion dollar stimulus, if some banking regulations were all that are needed?

(V): There was no expert saying he had WMD, just some vague comment from one person so I believe and he was dubious.



I cant believe we are back here again?

The whole US Congress and most of its government sent us to war on intel he had WMD, and now you tell me there were no experts saying he had WMD? We all sent our troops based on one dubious persons report?

Now that is criminal!

(V): I never doubted how bad things are, my opinion is that its all part of a normal economic cycle (well normal for a free market economy, which would be different from normal under a socialist type of system)


He and other economic experts just not think things were as bad as they were

Well experts thought Saddam had not got rid of the WMDs , but then they found out he had... thats the point, get it yet? Experts think things all the time, and they are not always correct.... and most of the time we realize this and we move on.


But how do you know that these Obama economic experts really did know what the economy was like, and that they really had no hope of creating 3 million jobs like they said they would? But they lied to us just to get their big spending spree passed easier.... Thats what was said about Bush, right? That he lied and should be impeached, right?

Its about a point, how the media and the liberals in general think about things differently when it is Obama or Bush, not trying to say anything about the specifics, just pointing out a bias and hypocrisy, as I see it....

(V): Once again you miss my point... its not about what is specifically going on, its about the fact that expert intelligence isnt always as accurate as we would like it to be... that Obama pushed this package through in a big hurry, and was able to pull it off based in part on faulty expert intelligence!


Now, the real point for me, is the hypocrisy by the media and the liberals in general..... if this were Bush, we would be told how he lied to us to get what he wanted and he should be impeached blah blah blah

but now you say, "whats wrong with that?" well whats wrong is that we had this huge stimulus forced down our throats at record speeds, and now that it is a done deal, we are told that the info used to make this legislation was wrong, and since it is a president popular with liberals and the media, well, lets just say again, if it were Bush, you wouldnt be so easy on him, would you????

(V): Well, the interview I quoted from was from a couple of days ago..... and the point is, that we were rushed into this multi trillion dollar stimulus package on faulty intel, both about the state of the economy, and on how the stimulus would create some 3 million jobs.

The press was all over the Bush administration for crap like this, but why nothing now????

"Bams clan lied, the nasty slobs... now more people lost their jobs!"

Artful Dodger: Right...so it is okay for them to rush a multi trillion dollar stimulus package, and tell us how many jobs they were to save, and blah blah blah..... and now say they really didnt know what they were talking about, and it doesnt even matter to anyone????

Again if this were Bush, do you think it would be a non story????

Czuch: Its all hypocritical left wing leaning media bias... the one that no liberal will admit

"No one realized how bad the economy was. The projections, in fact, turned out to be worse. But we took the mainstream model as to what we thought -- and everyone else thought -- the unemployment rate would be."

"Everyone guessed wrong at the time the estimate was made about what the state of the economy was at the moment this was passed."

These are quotes from Biden..... if this were Bush, I am sure we would have heard non stop about their poor intelligence

Universal Eyes:

Czuch: What? No socialist out there want to argue against this ?

Czuch: According to this man.... wE aRE AlL doOMeD!!!!

But who is this guy anyway??? Just some shmuck who founded this country.... just some joe shmo who doesnt have any clue about our "modern day" "progressive" society.. what an idiot, dolt!

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe,
we shall become as corrupt as Europe .
Thomas Jefferson



The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson



It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes.
A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.
Thomas Jefferson



I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the
government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson



My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government..
Thomas Jefferson



No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
Thomas Jefferson



The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson



The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson



To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson



Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:
'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered..'

(V): Whatever happened to that cop that killed that pedestrian for no reason?

(V): Yes, it does get maddening when the people elected to do the peoples work end up doing more for themselves, and even at the expense of the people

Maybe we have to look at it more from the point of view that it is not simply fraud or corruption, but an act of treason, that might get their attention a bit, make them think a bit before falling for the greedy, self indulgent crap, if they have some serious jail time, or worse, hang them in a public square