(V): everyone who had a camera was recording the police and their interaction with the crowds.


Okay, so it wasnt just this one guy trying to walk down the street all by himself, just trying to go home?

And you said he had already altered his normal route, and he still could not avoid an area with riot police?

Its just strange to me that this is the only guy in the video
especially since there are supposedly large crowds of people all around, and people making videos of all the action etc.....but all the other people managed to not be in any harm or somehow in the way of the police... how was this poor slob so unlucky to be the only person who just could not get out of the way?

Mousetrap: He looked liked an innocent bystander who just happend to be in the wrong place at the same time. He had his back to the police and there was certainly no need for him to be pushed to the ground like that.



How can you know what happened before the video shoot? It is possible that he was facing the police and being belligerent to their presence, and after this, he then turned his back and put his hands in his pockets.... like "I dare you to do anything to me now", for all we know, he knew there was a video camera taping and was hoping for some kind of confrontation.....


I mean, why would someone be there to make a recording of some bloke trying to walk home to watch a game on TV???? Its obvious that he was not alone on this street, there had to be some good reason the police were even there in the first place.... if this guy represents average joe public, then that says a sad tale for the common sense of the average person, IMO.


If you are just an average joe walking home it should be quite easy to avoid contact with riot police, unless the average joe in the UK is an idiot?

(V): Well, you have no evidence yet either that this was an assault?

Its not an assault if he had in any way disobeyed a police order....

Yes, he is just one man.... so you are saying it would not be okay for hundreds of people to act against the police like he did, but because it was just one person doing the disobedience, it is okay? (if it was in fact disobedient?)

(V): I am not an anarchist , I believe the government has its place in our lives.... protecting us is one of those places, and the police do a very hard job for very little pay, and they deserve our respect, not disdain...

You have a volatile area, the public needs to do what they can to stay out of the way of police trying to do their job...

This guy was trying to do his part to be more in the way than out of the way, he was making himself a distraction, and making it more likely that someone doing something wrong would no be dealt with properly because the police are too busy waiting for this guy to walk home from work.

It might seem like nothing to you, but lets say that 1000 people decided to act like this guy did, and basically be in the way, and a distraction to the police doing their real jobs???

Bottom line again.... this guy was an idiot who paid the ultimate price for his stupidity, he is dead, and this police officer will be suspended, and not charged with murder of any kind

(V): But one thing you don't consider, is the need for the police to be respected by Joe Public.


Well, I have too, that is exactly one of my points.... this guy had no respect for the police. Had he respected them and what they were up against in that area with all the violence and protests etc, he would have done everything in his abilities to not be in the way of them doing their duties against real problems that might exist.

(V): What facts are there that you think justify shoving a person over from behind who has both his hands in his pockets?


Really? Are you kidding me???

He has a gun in his pocket maybe???

You really cant think of any reasons??? Really??? I can give you two hand fulls if you need them

Artful Dodger: we seem to agree...


This cop will never be charged with anything close to murder, he will likely get a suspension, and then back to beating poor innocent people again

Bernice: as Jules said there was ONLY 122 arrests LOL....rather minor really


thanks for that reminder....

(V): there is an obvious case of the policeman attacking the guy from behind



are you kidding me?? really???

You use the word "attack' but that word implies something that has yet to be proven... the police could push a guy from behind for many reasons that would not be considered an attack

(V): you are saying it's ok for a policeman to shove a man from behind to the ground and that is a perfectly ok thing for a policeman to do?

A yes or no answer is all I need.

Yes

(V): How many other people live and work in this area anyway??? How many other people got in a situation where they got shoved by riot police while innocently walking home from work??? Were all these other people just extremely lucky, or do you think that the average local person knew of the situation, and was able to avoid a situation like this?

bottom line... we have a personal responsibility for many of the situations we find ourselves in, weather it be building a house in a high fire danger area or living below sea level in a hurricane zone, or putting ourselves in close proximity to riot police in a volatile situation... play with fire and you might get burned.... right or wrong, this guy got himself burned

...Hey, I am a liberal environmentalist, and I dont believe we should clear out dry underbrush from our forests floors, but I am going to build my new house here anyway, now we have this huge wildfire, and all our homes are being burned down, howd that happen

....hey, I live below sea level and now a hurricane has flooded me out.... howd that happen anyway

(V): You play with fire your gonna get burned... I dont blame the flame, the flame cant hurt you if you dont get close enough to it...

I personally would keep my distance from crazy riot police in a volatile area and situation...

I personally know big crazy drunks, who will slug you with a bat if you simply look at them wrong, or they think you did... I avoid any contact with these types at any cost, including not staying in a bar when they are there....

This guy had a look like "these guys cant mess with me, I am not doing anything wrong, who do they think they are trying to tell me what to do, I will show them whos boss of who", and now he is dead..... dead right maybe, but still dead


Like the guy from Saudi Arabia who just cant figure out how he ended up in Guantanamo prison after he entered a war zone in Iraq

(V): they were a unit off the metro.. well known for being violent beyond what is needed

Proves even more what an idiot this guy was...

Its like provoking the known local crazy drunk guy in a bar, he may not have any right to beat the crap out of you, but that isnt going to make it feel any better when he does it

Bernice:

(V): So even worse then... this guy was operating like this with Special police types on patrol???

My grandmother also used to say... mess with fire and you might get burned.... but like the good ol suicide bomber, maybe it was worth the effort?

Bernice: Sarong party girls... hahah i have been to Bali, and I know those types, I also remember many of them were actually boys.... strong hands and an Adams apple come to mind

Artful Dodger: he was not complying with the officer. He was being a jerk about it. It was a tense situation and he was playing a game. So he's not entirely innocent


Hey... want to join me in the elite CIA clairvoyant unit????

Pedro Martínez: Like I said, the guy is an idiot then... you dont have to be a clairvoyant, just know what an average person under average situation should do....

If I am trying to walk my way home from work, and that is my sole agenda, and there are a gang of police in full riot gear, and you are in a known volatile area, most prudent people would figure out a way to stay out of the way... find a different route or move a bit faster or whatever it would take... a prudent person would not likely just stroll along with hands in pockets like that in a close proximity to the police.... as far as i know too, the police dont like people with hands hiden like that, they get wary that a gun or hand grenade or something might come into play....

Again, the UK is probably different, but here in the police state of the US, that is our standard of proof, what would a normal prudent person be expected to do or how would they behave in a given situation?

The guy might only be guilty of being an idiot... and the police is only guilty of being an idiot too....

Pedro Martínez: I started my whole discussion with the assumption that our 2 laws are similar, and until now, nobody contradicted this... sorry


so this officer is guilty of pushing someone that got in their way, he will probably then get suspended, but not manslaughter, IMO

the guy is still an idiot, and I still think his intent was to provoke them, it seem sure that it was more than just a guy walking his merry way home, blind to anything else going on around him, unless maybe he was high on drugs or alcohol..

(V): I dont know anything for sure, looks to me like this bloke was"taunting" the police by being a bit belligerent and in their way....

maybe they never did give him an order to move along or to do anything... still my guess is that this shove did not cause this guys death... I also still believe no matter what happened, this guy was a dumb ass, and it doesnt look to me like he was just trying to make his way home from work, unless he was too drunk to make his way in a straight line and in an orderly way, the guy seems out of it to me?

Pedro Martínez: These are obviously police in a riot control mode, it was a tense time in a volatile area... but regardless, here in the US it is against the law to not obey any command from a police officer... we dont get to decide which commands we think are valid or not... they say to move on and you move on, they say faster, you move faster...

now, just because I have broken a law doesnt give them the right to use excessive force against me, or maybe they should have arrested him instead of trying to force his compliance, but when you say he has broken no laws, you are not correct (if this were US laws anyway)

Maybe he is dead right.... ask him if being alive right might not be better?

(V): This guy broke the law by being non compliant with a police request.... they have a right to enforce compliance with force....

I am not the one who gave the government more control, I am mostly for less control, but we dont base what laws to break or not to break based on our individual desires... it is against the law to not comply with the commands of a police officer, it is not against the law for police to force compliance against someone ordered to comply

this guy was being an A hole for the purpose of pissing off the police, now he is dead..

my grandmother always asked me if I was better off being dead right???? ask the same to this poor slob...

(V): He was non compliant to a request from a police officer.... that is illegal, but they had more important things to worry about than to waste resources arresting him for non compliance, so they tried to impress upon him with a bit of force that they were serious about him moving it along a bit faster....

Wait and see the results, but my bet is that this officer does not get charged with manslaughter

(V): A bad apple is a bad apple.


How do you know he wasnt purposefully trying to slow his walk home just to be in the way and piss the police off a bit? How do you know he isnt a bad apple himself?

Artful Dodger: He was not a threat. He was just moving slowly. Eventually, even a turtle makes it across the street.


Like you said before, the whole area was tense with potential violence.... this guy was just one more thing to worry about, they had more important things to worry about this day, and he was an unnecessary distraction that they needed to get rid of... the longer he was in the way, the longer their attention was diverted from their main focus... now you take time and resources to arrest him for non compliance? That doesnt make sense either....


My guess is that they will find that this shove by police was not the cause of his death, it is more likely like V said, he has previous health issues that were more a contributing factor to his death, that along with his defiant non compliance with a police order to move quicker

(V): And the police are not above the law. PERIOD.

i dont know your laws, but over here, it is against the law to not comply with any demand or request from a police officer.... they tell him to move along, to pick up the pace, then he decides to be defiant and slow down the pace.... he was being a dick and he knew it and the police knew it and I know it, and so do you, just that you wont admit it, and you feel for him because you would have done the exact same thing... "who are they to tell me how fast to walk, those A holes...."

Like I said, he would still be alive had he just complied with them, right or wrong...

(V): The police have many things going on all the time.... it may seem like nothing to you or to this guy, but maybe they had to have this area cleared for some unknown reason to me or to you or to this guy? Maybe there was a bomb or other immediate threat that they had been warned about, and they were trying to save this guys life by getting him to move out quicker?

You really dont know, nor do you need to know, all you need to know is that it is the police telling you to move it quickly, and when you dont do it, you get a bit of a nudge... thats what I see here

(V): The guy was on his way home from work, he was harmless.

You are the one who doesnt know what he is talking about.... this guy is just walking home from work you say??? He is surrounded by police just by some random accident?

It looks quite obvious to me that he is being told to move along by the police, and he is trying to be defiant, by dilly dallying along, he is far from being some plain guy just minding his own business and the police just come at him from nowhere and decide to just push him for absolutely no reason.... he is being told to pick up the pace and move along, and he would be alive today if he was compliant

(V): But the point still arises... why make a physically aggressive attack on a man with his hand in his pockets?


What a bleeder you are

The police are out there day after day, placing themselves in all kinds of dangerous situations, yours dont even carry guns do they?

Do you really think it is okay for someone to disobey a police command, and then simply turn with his hands in his pockets, and that makes him all of a sudden harmless?

People need to accept that if they willingly put themselves in a situation where they are confronted by the police, for whatever reason, then they have to accept some chance of injury, or other mishap!

To me it is the same sympathy for one of the Guantanamo inmates.... who would have never ended up there in the first place if they hadnt intentionally inserted themselves where they had no business to be

Bottom line.... you dont hear of anyone getting roughed up by the police for staying at home tending to their families

Pedro Martínez: It will be a good litmus test for the new liberal appeasement/talk with our enemies, get to know and understand them better, have sympathy for them, and they will play nice too, mentality.....

If these pirates let this captain go un harmed with tears in their eyes, heads hanging in shame and sorrow, and a new outlook for peaceful prosperity, then we will know that we finally have the solution to all of our problems!

President Barack Obama flew unannounced into Iraq on Tuesday and promptly declared it was time for Iraqis to "take responsibility for their country" after America's commitment of six years and thousands of lives.




What do you think about this???


Seems to me like he should be saying something like...

"I am pulling all the US troops from your country and reinstating Saddams regime, and I am sorry for any harm the US and Bush caused you"?

I mean, how can you be against this the whole time, and now not apologize or something like that? " If I were president, you would never have gotten as far as you have, and had any hope restored for your grandchildren future, and you would still be suffering under saddams rule. and the UN could still be paying for the meager food you and your children receive from the people of the world that actually have hope and prosperity"!!

(V): we just have to go with the flow and trust in humanity and that it will prevail in the end.



I dont mind, really..... its just when "going with the flow" means taking money from responsible hard working people to support people stuck with idiot leaders, and antiquated governments, its throwing good money after bad, and it makes zero sense to me

Pedro Martínez: Well, of course, you guys are right.... It just gets frustrating sometimes when I see aholes like Kim Jong pulling stunts like this, because he spends so much time being a dick, his own people suffer, and it is we who end up paying to do for them what he neglects

I just think that in the long term, the Iraqi people will be better off, and too the rest of the world, with saddam and his regime gone, and I think the same would be true for the people in North Korea and the wolrd, if little dick was gone as well

As soon as the UN Security Council passes another ineffectual resolution regretting the defiance of its last ineffectual resolution, the North knows it can eventually find the Obama administration back at a negotiating table for the charade's next act.



This excerpt from an article I was reading really struck home to me.... its obviously about N Korea and their nuclear bargaining chip. But it reminds me so well of what was going on with iraq in regards to how ineffectual the UN really is

One useless resolution after another, talk about a huge waste of time and money, another example of people making a living off of false importance paid for with my tax dollars

(V): In any protest there will be elements that want to cause trouble. The minority do not represent us or show us up, they just show that there are elements in the UK just like the rest of the world. A shame, but just reality.


See, this is my point.... when it came to a few bad soldiers in a prison, your attitude towards a minority were much different.... all you wanted to do was believe the media hyped reports... and you used a minority action to represent the whole!

I would say it is a shame, but a reality of war, and an isolated hyped up incident, but you would have none of that back then?

Artful Dodger: Well, when the person is part of the issue, what then?

I get accused of turning a blind eye or for not being fully aware... that doesnt offend me, it may even be true

Jules (thats who you are referring to right?)
He will make claims sometimes, where I see it as exaggerated or mislead or whatever, and now he is the one with the shoe on the other foot, trying to protect something that most of us find unprotectable, saying that the reports are not accurate and such, dont believe the media hype. But there was a time when he believed it all, and still does....

(V): Whats going on over there anyway??? All the anarchists are out in force it seems?

(V): revealed that certain elements of what we were told before going into Iraq were false


Finally, first time I remember that you didnt use the word "lied".... there is always false information, all the time, everywhere, but it is a huge leap to accuse of lies and conspiracies.

ever feel like you are being ignored??


hahah, only when I have a valid point

The Usurper: The only facts I have is the report itself.


like the 9/11 report?????

(V): can you know see the difference between real socialism and a fake socialism,

So what you have in the UK, that is the fake socialism?

The local community would be in more charge as they being the local people would be able to better work out their needs

That doesnt sound like any UK socialism, or really socialism anywhere in the world right now.

(V): You perhaps I suggest strongly, have got what Big Brother means confused.


Any control a government has on you is a form of big brother.... if it is giving you health care or welfare or any other, is all a form of big brother.....

also, I dont interpret "for the people" to mean that it is a government that does everything for the people, but simply it is there at the pleasure of the people to mean it is not there for its own benefit, and to me, that also means it should be as small in unobtrusive as possible, and that is the exact opposite of the socialist model that you support.

(V): And are you saying you'd be happy with a Big Brother society?

Apparently you are...

What do you think socialism is anyway? You are so proud of your government health care and your government schools and your government everything, but you claim disdain for a big brother society????

The Usurper: Not only are we not safe, we are already enslaved.


Had they achieved it already, you and I wouldn't be free to discuss it right now.


It cant be both.... we are free yet enslaved at the same time?

The Usurper: Unfortunately, the so-called Conservatives & so-called Liberals are not really competing. Thay are on the same side


So they use different tactics for the same results? The whole point is to make us weak, and then hammer us with a new world order?

The Usurper: Not only are we not safe, we are already enslaved.

So are they fighting for an end game, or have they already achieved it?

If they already have us, why not put the hammer down and get it over with already?

Take us out of our misery already...

I still want to hear V explain to me how it is okay to regulate banks because they took our money, but we are not allowed to regulate individuals who take our welfare? IE drug tests, or why not even regulating their reproduction as well?

The Usurper: Okay, I think I got it now....

Conservatives want us to be a dictatorship and are trying to get there through dominance and power....

and liberals want us to be a dictatorship and are trying to get there by making us so weak we wont have any fight left to stop it....


If this is true, we are actually in a good place, with half liberals and half conservatives, both fighting against the others, actually keeping either one from completing their objectives!!!!