(V): There was a history of people from inside Iraq trying to organize help to oust saddam, we were actually all set up for one under Clinton, and he backed out at the last minute, leaving the insiders hung out in the wind!

After that it was hard for them to trust any help would be available, and without help, nothing they could do alone.

(V): Oh okay.... all Bushs fault but not all the glory? hehehe well for sure its not all about Bush, of course you all were great allies among others, and any credit for any success there will obviously be spread about, but this is inevitably going to be Bushs blunder or good achievement, either way!

I really never understood what we all were thinking by not completely shutting down the Iraqi boarders after the initial fall? If not for the foreign insurgency coming in, I think we would have been gone long ago!

anastasia: I can sense and understand your frustration.... opinions are just that opinions... but heres the point, If you say you dont like Bush because he never signed a law protecting albino wambats, then that is your opinion and i might not agree but thats that.

But lets say Bush had signed that law, and your opinion of Bush was based on wrong intel?

Your gonna tell us you werent one to hate Bush from day one, that your hatred for him is based on certain things he did or did not do?

he handled Katrina poorly you say? Well even though he stayed away at the request of the governor of that state, your opinion is that he should have done something more anyway, and that is totally legit opinion, yeah he should have broken the law and helped these people anyway. That works for me!

But if you say he handled Katrina wrong because he did not follow some specific guidelines set forth in the constitution or set forth by whomever, well that is an opinion based on false information, and is therefore less legitimate.

See you cannot have an opinion about facts, facts and opinions are two different things! Also if your opinions are based on facts that arent really factual, well that brings those opinions into debate as well.

But in a discussion board format you either need to keep your opinions more open and vague, IE I dont care what the laws were, he should have done more anyway, or you have to be able to defend them when they are not, IE he broke the law so I dont like him!

coan.net: I see a point there.... but what was the option then? Before the oil embargo Saddam was selling oil and using the cash to make weapons to kill his own people with.

Its great to say just stay out of their affairs, let them be, but someday their mess will become our mess, and then its a way bigger mess.... there are no easy solutions, and I dont know what the best ones are or arent, but nobody does. We just do the best we can with what we have and sometimes histroy proves what we did to be the right thing sometimes it shows that maybe something else is better.

But you cannot tell me that for sure what we did in Iraq was wrong and for sure not doing something would have been better in the long term.

Charles Martel: the USA in my opinion has no business forcing their "model" or ideals on other countries.........true....I ahve always thgouht that way


here is the problem i have with this kind of thought.... I can agree on one level that we should not force anyone to do anything, but I also do think these countries can have it both ways. What I mean is that here we are paying to feed their people (in Iraq) ...Saddam is stealing the money for the food we are supposed to be buying them,... we are spending countless amounts of time energy and money to monitor them and to sanction them and to monitor the sanction then tohave them broken anyway.... okay fine with me, dont go in and help the Iraqi people have hope for their futures, but dont give them anything at all!! We arent allowed to help them by getting rid of their tyrant leader, well we arent going to spend another dime on them at all!


See, when it comes right down to it, we did not force anything on anybody, they forced it upon themselves, really!!!

Its the same ol liberal garbage.... dont teach them to fish just give them fish. At some point if you are responsible to feed the people because their leader wont do it, then you have the responsibility to help them become more self sufficiant, the best long term way to make them more self sufficient is to give them a stable democratic society.


We are not going into any country we dont like their government and forcing democracy down their throats.... but Iraq was obviously not working, and you libs out there keep whining about how much the war costs, but what would it cost us to feed and monitor Iraq generation after generation? Or even worse, wait 10 years and then have to go in and help out?

I think it was inevitable what was going to happen in Iraq, it was just a matter of when and how..... the stars just lined up right for us to go in when we did, and I am glad for it!

(V): Well I was talking about what benefits we will have realized because of Bush 20 or 30 years from now, looking back on this.... If by then Iraq is a stable, democratic, model for other middle eastern countries, and an ally of the US, well it will all be because of Bush and Bush presidency will have been considered largely a success!

anastasia: I just hope you are happy with how Bush led our country the past 8 years and the legacy that he has left...


I guess we (Art and I and other conservatives) are mostly frustrated because we believe that much of the negative feelings towards Bush come from completely slanted, one sided, liberal, Bush haters from day one, like the main stream press, and hollywood lefties (who wouldnt be given the time of day if they werent all so pretty)

Thats why you hear us in here so often speaking about media bias etc, because we (or I, lets keep it to I) dont believe that most people are informed enough to have any opinion of Bush, other than what Katie Couric told them, or what they heard Sean Penn say!

Now, this probably isnt you, anyone willing to come in here and speak her mind, obviously has more of an active interest than the average mindless person. But a lot of the time you are the only one we get to bash because the really mindless types arent in here to be able to explain that there is another side!

Thats why Art is always pushing for facts and reason etc, because you are really in here representing so many people who are not in here, people we cant grab by the throat and choke the very life from their worthless bodies (whoops, did I just say that?) Because to us there really arent as many reasons as people think there are, if you actually take the time to think about it. Like our lists... you said there were way more bad things about Bush than good, but its not so easy to really sit down and make that list when it is more than just mindless platitudes.

No, I dont think Bush was a great President, nor do I think he was as bad as many say. I just hate that for most of the past 8 years I have spent trying to defend him from attacks made by people who attacked him simply becaquse they hated the guy from day one, Im glad I wont have to do that anymore, and I am looking forward to keeping libs on their toes for the next 8!

Artful Dodger: If Obama were A CONSERVATIVE i THINK HE WOULD MAKE A GREAT CHOICE FOR PRESIDENT!

anastasia: Well i do believe you, but there are way too many bush haters, probaly not many would admit it, but they would rather have us lose a war than have Bush succeed in Iraq!

If the liberal Bush hating media worked as hard to find positive storys that portrayed the war as going well, as they did covering everything negative they could find,like I have said before, its my opinion that we would have been out of Iraq long long ago!

anastasia: I think they will be able to take care of themselves... but i also believe that it will be part of our strategy to have some sort of military presence there, but because it benefits us to do so and not just because Iraq cant help themselves.

anastasia: I agree the time is near, the Iraqis need to take more responsibility, and keeping a better eye on their borders would be a good place to start, I also think they need to use their oil money to give us some payback big time, I thought that was always the plan, but I havent heard anything about it?

I know not you personally... but cant you admit that many Bush haters took more delight in Iraq going badly just to stick it to Bush, and to me that is just plain sad!

anastasia: .you guys go spouting off that I am this and I am that,but you guys are the ones that put words into people mouths and twist stuff they say all the flippin time.


Read what I said... that it probably didnt pertain to you, but that liberals in general... I was not putting words in your mouth, but if the shou fits...

The plan to get the troops out is to stableize Iraq enough to make it possible for them to take care of themselves when we leave! That would have happened long ago if it werent for the foreign terrorists comming in and messing everything up!

You think it is Iraqis fighting the US because they want us out of there and wish we never took down saddam for them???? Hell no!!! There may be a few like that, but those are the people who had it made being part of saddams inner circle and benefiting from his tyranny. And I have already explained to you why there are so many terrorists in that country, so i wont bore you again.

yes, like Art said, there was some looting and lawlessness early on done by misguided Iraqis, but that would have been easy to get under control, it is foreign terrorists plain and simple why we are still there!


Like I said before.... its hard to listen to people who didnt like Bush from day one try to make it sound like they have all these reasons for not liking him now

Its like me saying I dont like chocolate ice cream and then someone gets killed by chocolate ice cream and I say see thats why i dont like it!

anastasia: because MY opinion kept us over there longer...yeah....no


You cant run away from facts just because you dont like them.... its a fact that terrorists that hate the US and our free way of life were definitely emboldened by the fact that so many people around the world and in hte media were against the war! How can you say that isnt true? If the world was behind this war 100%, the terrorists would never have had the balls to go into Iraq and mess with their fight for hope and freedom, not a chance, and this war would have been over long long ago!

You cant have it both ways! Being against the war had a part in actually dragging it out longer, its a fact!

anastasia: so unless I give you a spreadsheet,my opinion is worthless...so be it then

It doesnt make your opinion worthless, just plain wrong!

You blame Bush for things that arent his fault and your opinions of him are based on false information

You are upset that we went to Iraq based on false information... but it is okay for you to base your opinion of Bush on false information???

Maybe you are not one of them... but so many people hated Bush from day one, they think he stole an election and that Gore and Kerry should have won, and so they spent his whole time as president trying to find examples to back up their pre made opinions! The guy never had a chance with half of the county and the media against him before he even started!


Its so easy for these people to say they dont like Bush because he did this or he did that.... but the truth is they didnt like him before he did anything at all, so now when they try to say it is because of this or that, its no wonder those comments fall on deaf ears like mine, just face it, you hated Bush the whole time and these so called reasons you give are just a way to make you feel good about never liking the guy at all!

anastasia: You have a right to hate Bush, problem with most people that hate him is they give their list of reasons for hating him and most of that list is not accurate.... Katrina was not Bush fault, it was the local governments (democrats) fault.

Iraq not being wrapped up yet is also the fault of democrats who spent more time saying we should not be there and focusing on any negative aspects just for political gain, instead of backing what they voted for in the first place!

Why do you think all the foreign terrorists flocked into Iraq after the fall of saddam? It was because they saw all the anti war liberals and Bush haters not backing our efforts over there, so they knew it would be easy to go in there and disrupt our attempt to stablize the place! Had the country united behind the effort the message to the terrorists would have been loud and clear, dont mess with the US, because when the US has her collective mind made up we seldom fail at anything!

Liberals get all upset, that it is the American way to dissent and they have every right to do so, but we also have a right to point out that it was their insistent dissent that was the direct cause that emboldened our enemies and the direct reason we are still in Iraq today!

You can say yoiu wanted us out of iraq, but by constantly undermining our eforts there you actually made us be there longer!! Nice job liberal Bush haters!

anastasia: Taking quite awhile for the list of 10 Bush did to screw up the world? Should be easy right?

anastasia: How about a list of 10 things Bush has done to screw up the world?

anastasia: And again I ask... give me a list of 10 for any president you want???

anastasia: I am not nor ever have bragged about how great Bush is or was, I just dont think he is or has been all that bad, except when he acted more like a democrat and started spending too much....

I also know that Saddam didnt end up having WMDs, but he did have them before and it is very likely that he would have them, or try to have them again.... all Saddam had to do was show some evidence that he had either used or destroyed all the wmds that the whole world knows he had produced in the past, simple enough, show some video or something of them being destroyed, and he would still be alive today being a menace to the world!

But he refused to do that, he gambled that the UN and the rest of the world didnt have the balls to back up their threats towards him, and he was right, except for one person, and W is his name!

I dont really even care about wmds personally, Saddam broke UN resolution after Un resolution, and the UN told him if he broke one more, then he would face "serious consequences"... well he broke that one more, and as far as i am concerned that was the only thing we needed to get him out, the WMDs were only gravy!

You also neglect to mention that we could not have gone to war against saddam if congress did not approve it, and they have all the same resources available to them as Bush did.... you make it sound like all they did was say "well Bush said it, so we will blindly rubber stamp it"..... it was the US that agreed to take Saddam out, not Bush, the US!!!! And then the people who authorized us to go there did there very best at every turn to make sure we wouldnt be successful there! That is what you should be angry about IMO, that we sent our troops there and then sabotaged them just because some people wanted to make Bush look bad....

You are angry about him making a joke, well I am just as angry that the democrats in this country hated Bush so bad they would rather see our mission in Iraq fail just so they could make Bush look bad!!! Now that is the saddest joke of all!!

Bernice: I am not sure what kind of list you want??? Do me a favor, take one of out presidents you like, maybe Clinton, yeah, use Clinton, and make a list for me like the one you want for Bush?

What abouty you anastasia??? Give me a list for Clinton or how about Carter, yeah Carter thats a good democrat right, give me a list for him!

anastasia: Who said anything about a great leader?

Anyway, that is the cost for this war, yes.... the point that you refuse to comprehend is what the cost of doing nothing would have been? My opinion is that the cost in life money and time would have been 100 times or more the cost we have spent right now!

Its funny you seem to understand the concept when it comes to something like global warming, where I am sure you would advocate to spend whatever money it takes right now and you would argue that it is nothing compared to the cost of not doing anything right now, right?

Its the same thing with Iraq, its impossible to figure the cost we would have paid by not doing anything, but I gaurantee you it would be a heck of a lot more than the figure you are complaining about right now!

Bernice: He is not the president of the world, and its not his duty to do anything for the world, but since the US is one of the strongest countries in the world we end up doing more for other countries than any other country ever!

The world benefits in so many ways because of what the US does,

Bernice:

1) No terrorist attacks since 9/11 on US soil
2) No Saddam to worry about
3) A democratic Iraq
4) Freedom for Iraqi people
5) More stability in the middle east
6) Democracy in other middle east countries
7) Fewer people/countries messing with the US
8) Less time money energy spent on military events
9) More time money energy spent on other things other than worrying about and dealing with idiots around the world
10) Done more for Africa than any other president ever.
11) Didnt have an affair with an intern

Its kind of difficult to quantify some of the benefits.... IE we can never know what kind of issues we would have had to deal with down the road if saddam was not taken out, its likely there would have been many, but we can never know now because he is gone... anyway, we really wont know exactly all the good taking saddam out did, and the full effects wont be realized for many decades, one thing is for sure though, liberals wont be getting any of the credit, it was all done in spite of them and with them getting in the way at every turn.

Bernice: your president made an ass of himself in front of the whole world, and it is something that will be laughed at, chaffed at, and giggled over for many a year to come :)

People have laughed and scoffed at most of the great people this world has ever seen .... its what idiots with no imagination and insight do, it is unfortunate that you will be long ago dead when the majority realizes the benefits from what GW has done for the world.

Bernice: bit late now tho isnt it ROFL........

Hahahah thats the great thing about it all.... next time we tell some idiot to show us some proof he has destroyed all his weapons or he will face "serious consequence" (thats the UNs words) they will know that if they dont they could end up dead!!!

People talk about the costs of the war etc, but you cannot discount the value we get from future actions we will not have to pursue because of the example we made by calling the bluff of Saddam!!!

(V): Subject: Re:hat you bomb the **** out of them until they cry uncle
Czuch: Then you just become another mass murderer like Hitler and the Nazis... And what happened to them in court after WWII?


Well, I am obviously exaggerating a bit to make a point, But let me ask you then.... what is the punishment when one side breaks a peace agreement?

Lets say we both agree to not sneak up behind the other and hit them over the head with a stick... but the sanction for breaking this agreement is to sit in the corner for awhile, or to go without supper for a night, is that good enough, really? But if we agreed that you would be executed if you did it again, well then I am certain that might deter you a bit more?

We have already witnessed how well UN sanctions worked with Saddam.... dont kill anymore of your own people and dont make anymore bad weapons or we will well, we will do something.... hahaha the only thing that works is the threat of major force, and when it is an empty threat, it only makes others think they can get away with it too, thats why the US had to go spank Saaddam, now any other freaks out there know we arent afraid to keep our promices... well unless they think Obama is going to be a UN whimp, but that is unlikely!

Charles Martel: well, you can label it anyway you want, but the fact is THEY are there and they are not going away,


Okay, yes they are there, but just because I am here and I want to be there, and you are there and dont want me here, does not mean, that I have to let you be here and saying you used to be here does not mean I have to let you be here again....

Problem is really that the Pals dont just want a new chunk of land, they want the extinction of the IsraeliUntil that part is worked out, I dont know what else can be expected, but you never hear anyone saying that we need to help the Pals to agree to the existance of Israel, do we???

(V): How can they take some land if no-one gives it to them?

I never said "take land" I said agree to give them land, one last time, and then cease fire with full consequenses for the next to break that cease fire agreement!

Full consequenses are that you bomb the heck out of them until they cry uncle then you take whatever you want and make them your indentured.

(V): My point is that it would not really be genocide if you agree to have no grievance against me for any future retaliations to your unprovoked attacks!

Simply put... we agree on one last and final land agreement....and agree to not involve the other in any military or terrorist or other acts of aggression towards each other.

The world also agrees that any future aggressions will result in the forfeiture of anything already agreed upon, meaning all bets are off, and the international community will back the non aggressor in any and all actions against the aggressor!

Simple, take some land, be happy or die, your choice!!!

(V): Genocide is against the law and is considered a war crime.


Not if it is agreed upon that is a condition of the agreement, whichever side breaks the agreement will be wiped of the map, if both sides say okay, well then it aint illegal anymore

(V): Okay, that is a big problem then now facing Israel, I can understand their reluctance to compromise!


Anyway, If I were with you in charge of a new negotiation agreement attempt, here is where I would go with it.... give the pals enough land to make them complete, I dont know what that is or if it is even reasonable, but I would try to get there, and then one condition would be, that is it, done, no more land no more nothing, and henceforth any actions against Israel by anyone would be met with instant annihilation from the international community, thats it, no second chances, no more negotiations, nothing.... i am sure it wouldnt be too long before we would have to lob nukes everywhere making good on that promise!

I guess it seems like what they really want, and iran is a great example, is the complete extermination and extinction of Israel. That is the ultimate goal, and they will start by getting land, and then it will be something else and then more .... they just hate all Jews, they look at dogs with more respect and esteem than they do jews. Its hard to negotiate or compromise with that, especially if any of those compromises only serves to make you weaker and easier pray.

(V): I think over the years Israel has given back bunches of land, and it has always been too little, where does it end, how much land do they want, I dont think they will ever think they got enough, because they really want it all....

(V): They are just the result of a biased system and idiotic policies regarding the Palestinians.

Sounds like you would make an excellent unbiased mediator....

(V): Who are going to be represented in these peace talks? Hamas are a terrorist organization, they are not a country.... maybe you can clarify exactly what these peace negotiations will look like and how it might resolve things?

Tuesday: Okay, so the wars started, and the innocent people who died, with their screaming and crying relatives, all in the name of your freedom are okay, but the other wars with other innocents dying and their relatives grieving all for the sake of someone elses freedom is not okay.... is that what you are saying???

(V): okay, no it is not right for ussr to lob a nuke at us if it was not in retaliation, if we already lobbed a couple at them, then all bets are off and if they nuke us, well too bad for us!

(V): What do you expect??? I mean really, you kill one and i am only allowed to kill one in return?? You need to make them pay and hurt enough to never want to mess with you again, war is not about being fair and playing nice, if you get hit, i say pound them back and make them regret ever messing with you!

Tuesday: Thats right you are not... except that you said all war is wrong and bad, doesnt that include the wars that gave you your freedom too?

How is it different for people to die for your freedom in a war, than people to die for Iraqi future freedom in a war?

(V): Its a cold war silly, what is happening in Israel right now is hardly a cold war.... it is legitimate retaliation and if Hammas is so worried about innocent people they should not lob bombs themselves!

Isabella of Castile Born: 1451; Died: 1504

Isabel La Católica-2

Isabella I of Spain, well known as the patron of Christopher Columbus, with her husband Ferdinand II of Aragon, are responsible for making possible the unification of Spain under their grandson Carlos I. As part of the drive for unification, Isabella appointed Tomás de Torquemada as the first Inquisitor General of the inquisition. March 31, 1492 marks the implementation of the Alhambra Decree; expulsion edicts forcing the removal or conversion of Jews and Muslims. Roughly 200,000 people left Spain; those remaining who chose conversion were subsequently persecuted by the inquisition investigating Judaizing conversos. In 1974, Pope Paul VI opened her cause for beatification. This places her on the path toward possible sainthood. In the Catholic Church, she is thus titled Servant of God.

Queen Mary I Born: 1516; Died: 1558

468Px-Mary1 By Eworth 3

Mary was the only child of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon to live past infancy. Crowned after the death of Edward VI and the removal of The Nine Days Queen-Lady Jane Grey, Mary is chiefly remembered for temporarily and violently returning England to Catholicism. Many prominent Protestants were executed for their beliefs leading to the moniker "Bloody Mary". Fearing the gallows a further 800 Protestants left the country, unable to return until her death. It should be noted that Elizabeth I shares position 10 on this list for her equally bad behavior.

Tuesday: So now i expect your next post to put down all the people who died for your freedom... same as you put down people dying for the freedom of future generations in Iraq?

Tuesday: There are no evil women with egos in history?

(V): A civilian is not innocent if they are forced to be a shield for any military targets..... I put all the blame of any civilians killed directly on the people who use them as shields by putting military instillation in densely populated areas!

tazman7474: So what will you say when the prices go up again???

Its that type of flawed thinking that aggravates me so much about libs.......

anastasia: I have personally been to Vietnam, the same anti war hippies said all the same things about that war as they are saying about Iraq, I have spoken to many many people in Vietnam and I never spoke to one person who was against what we tried to do there, and these are people who lost family members and people who were themselves jailed and tortured for many decades because of what we tried to do there! The only regrets these people had were that we pulled out of that fight and left them without finishing what we started!

I have no reason to believe Iraq will be any different, the worst thing we can do now is leave them before the job is finished, and in 20 or 30 years from now the future generations will only have thanks for our efforts and they will wonder why the rest of the world was not there to help!

Who was it? Roosevelt who left office with a terrible approval rating and now many decades later history shows him to be one of our greatest presidents ever! I believe history will treat Bush much the same way too!

Tuesday: LOL, I dont see you complaining about being one of the survivors whos life is better because other people were killed in the name of your freedom?

What about our civil war???? What about Hitler??? The only reason you enjoy the life you have today is because somebody else life was destroyed!

Just because you dont see it doesnt mean there werent people screaming and crying in the streets when people were dying to give you your life?

Just like you would give your life to save the life of your child, its the ultimate sacrifice, and yes it sucks, but it is ignorant to believe that it is wrong to sacrifice some life for the greater good of the lives of others

Take the example of a hostage situation... it is common and accepted practice to risk the lives of some of the innocent hostages in order to save the lives of some, and end the crisis. Yes, you will see some family members screaming and crying when they learn that it was their loved ones who were the unfortunate killed in the rescue attempt, but that has never stopped us from having a policy to attempt rescues in those situations!

Thats how I see Iraq, the people there were being held hostage by Saddam and his regime, they needed outside help to end that crisis, and some of them were at risk of dying in the process of liberating the many and for the overall good for future generations!

Tuesday: What is it called when you discount someone who is a qualified candidate simply because you dont like the guy who nominated him?

BTW, I think this guy bloggo, or whatever his name is, is not going to be found guilty. In politics there are always some form of payment for everything. It doesnt have to be money, it can be clout or even a meeting can be considered "payment" of a kind.

When you are considering an appointment among many qualified people, its part of normal politics to get something in return for it... you pat my back I pat your back, who can pat your back the best?

But it doesnt mean that he waqs actually going to accept cash money from the highest bidder and give them the nomination?

Anyway, I hope the FBI has him actually accepting a true bribe and acting upon it, or else it is all circumstantial conjecture, and if they dont have him red handed taking bribe money, then I think it will just be another bad example of politics as usual!

(V): r u kidding???

You still dont understand the concept that Saddam and Iraq were a very uniquely different situation than any other faced around the globe in these times?

I dont see years of UN sanctions or constant monitoring or 90% of the people needing me to feed them, they havent threatened us in the recent past, they are not a threat to give nukes to people who want to use them against us... the list goes on and on.... for you to even compare Saddam to what is going on now with Israel only adds to the depth of ignorance about both what is going on now and what Iraq was all about!