Tuesday: So.. he slipped back to his old ways even after converting... figures!!

Übergeek 바둑이: Yes it does. But a realistic Christian will appreciate they will not go away overnight... unfortunately.

Tuesday: I'll take your word,I'm not a believer in any religion

Tuesday:

> If everyone followed the teachings there would be no war but not everyone is going to follow so what do we do to protect ourselves.

There is no solution because religion is a tool in the hands of the wealthy and the powerful. As long as there is religion there will be those who abuse it and exploit it for their own ends.

Communists tried to solve it by getting rid of religion completely. When the Soviet Union came into Afghanistan they tried to change that place, but between the CIA and Mujahideen the Soviet Union failed and now we have the Taliban and Al Qaida (both the Mujahideen's bastard children). Interestingly, at the time the US saw it as its duty to stop the Godless communists (obviously out of some sense of Christian duty).

The Communist solution (elimination of religion) was bound to fail because without religion people feel lost. People need to believe in something other than the physical world. Without God there is no salvation, and people fear death and non-existence more than anything else. It is that fear that is used by the powerful to manipulate the masses. "If you do what I, your religious leader, say, you will go to Heaven. If you don't, you will be damned in the fires of hell."

Christianity is not immune. And these days we replace religion with ideology. "If you don't go to war, your freedom and democracy will end and you will be condemned to anarchy and dictatorship." "If you don't go to war, socialism and the revolution will end and you will be condemned to capitalist exploitation and the abuses of the bourgeosie." It is all the same thing, fear packaged under different wording.

Tuesday: As I said, Romans was written by one of the followers of Christ. Paul.

Tuesday: yeah, Jews are suckers for bling bling

Tuesday: Didn't he send his son on a suicide mission?

Tuesday:

> Old Testament was scary times. That was before Christ.

The modern world is even scarier, and this is AFTER Christ!

This is a question for any good Christian out there:

Is it right for any country to have an arsenal of nuclear weapons? Does having those nuclear weapons (which could kill every living thing in this planet) contradict Christian teaching? After all, the biggest arsenals of nuclear weapons are in the hands of predominantly "Christian countries".

Is it right for any country to support fascist dictators, then have those dictators kill Communists? What about killing millions people in anticommunist wars (like Russia, Vietnam, Korea, certain wars in Africa and Latin America)? Can those actions be reconciled with Christian teaching?

Al Qaida killed 3000 in New York, and the Coalition of the Willing killed over 300,000 people in Iraq. Who can point the finger to whom? Can the killing of hundreds of thousands be reconciled with Christian teaching?

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Western culture glorifies its billionaires and wealthy capitalists. Is there not a contradiction between that and the Sermon on the Mount?

I think Islamic Law is oppressive and wrong, specially the Sharia law that the Taliban is imposing in Afghanistan. However, for Christians to come and claim superiority is hypocritical in view of the history of Christianity and war. After all, Christianity is a religion that spread itself around the world through violence, brutality and cruelty. If you don't believe it look at how the indigenous peoples of the Americas were "converted" to Christianity.

Jesus was a man who praised love and kindness above all. Christians are supposed to follow the teachings of Jesus. Those teachings go out the window when it comes to wealth and power.

People go home and say to themselves "it has nothing to do with me, I am not the one who made nuclear bombs and went to war", but then, they voted into office those who made the bombs and went to war, and then paid for it with their tax dollars. They bury their heads in the sand of self-righteousness.

Jim Dandy: Dogs will eat anything!!

Tuesday: Romans in the NT, written by the Apostle Paul.

The world was violent in those times full stop.

(V): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNTUlsOYuPU&p=068D60FABD4B0849&playnext=1&index=3

Jim Dandy: Can't watch it.. Sony are blocking it from being shown in the UK

Kill Your Neighbors
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God...

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." ....Deuteronomy 13:13-19

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Übergeek 바둑이: anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.

Islam is the religion that burys a woman up to her neck and stones her for adultry while the man will go free.

Islam is the religion where it's lawful to kill the wife or children (usually the girls) where they bring dishonor to the family.

Islam is the religion where believers strap bombs to themselves and blow up innocent people in market places.

Islam is the religion that killed 3000 people on 911.

Islam is the religion that in their "holy book" it says to kill all infidels.

You fine NONE of this in mainstream Christianity.

And before you appeal to fringe groups in Islam, it's not. The mentality runs rampant in the Middle East. It's part of their beliefs and practice.

Tuesday: Unfortunately just like with those who claim they are Islamic and then break basic Islamic laws on respect to fellow Islamic folk and folks of other faiths.

... despite false claims. The Qur'an is quite specific on respecting others and true believers of God/Allah. The Qur'an makes quite specific comments on not attacking civilians.

A recent program on some of the African churches spreading in the UK, comments on how they are perverting the Bible regarding the so called 'witch' text to abuse children. Preachers saying a child is a witch then beating the 'demons' out of them.

Yet in the NT there is some quite specific text on how those who do such things to children will not find a good reception in front of God.

A certain commandment says to not say God made me do this (take name in vain) but people will. It has been an easy cop-out to justify hate and anger for thousands of years and I don't see it changing over night.

Artful Dodger:

In reality, it would be unfair to single out Christians (or Moslems) in terms of war and violence. I could easily have said:

Nothing says "good ______" like fearing and hating other religions.

The history of organized religion is also the history of violence and war. the reason is that those in power use religion as a tool to manipulate the masses into hatred, fear and war.

Unfortunately, there is a big difference between what people preach and what people do. The Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam and their variants) have been used as excuses for war. People claim to believe in the Bible, but conveniently ignore its key points when political power and wealth are involved.

Unfortunately in most places organized religion has become organized hypocrisy. God must sit in heaven and wonder if it is really worth saving humanity. After all, we have done nothing but disappoint God all along. We have come to glorify wealth, power and war beyond kindness, understanding and tolerance.

I can go to most Christians and tell them: "Do you think it is a good idea to get rid of our nuclear weapons? What about dismantling our bloated armies? Should we turn those millions of soldiers into something else, people who don't kill?" Most of them would have no answer for me. In the US most good Christians would rather keep the nuclear weapons and the war planes and the armies, even though their "Christian beliefs" say otherwise. Those Christians that heavily criticize that mosque will be the first to say the wars in the Middle East are OK. So much for "good Christians".

If you look at the data, you'll see something very interesting, yet odd. In many cases, Republicans are viewed LESS favorably than their Democratic counterparts. BUT, in a generic election, the Republicans swept the election. How can this be? AND, if the voters will vote OUT the Democrats even while they approve LESS of the Republicans, how much more will they vote OUT the Dems if Republicans can actually begin to win the confidence of the people?

One thing for sure, Democrats are in big trouble this November.

Here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTRiyirhe8Y&feature=player_embedded

Tuesday: The thing is, you can always find radicals in any group. This proves nothing.

I know a girl (I watched her grow up here) who left the comforts of the US to work with people in the Sudan. It's a dangerous place where she is. She's worked hard to get the people clean water (they need 300 deep water wells in that region) and she's making progress. She's opened a health clinic and she and another Christian volunteer care for the medical needs of the people. She recruits doctors for help (she's not a medical person and only has a little training). Still, she's learned to stitch up cuts, deliver babies, treat wounds of all kinds, and preform minor surgeries (via google and consultation from a US doctor). What she does isn't legal in the US but there is NO ONE ELSE to do this work. She's young, attractive, smart, and living in a remote part of the Sudan. THIS sort of story doesn't make the news. This kind of sacrifice (which is multiplied by the thousands) doesn't get quoted with links. The kooks get the press.

It's STUPID for anyone here to point to a fringe group and make any kind of generalization to apply it to the whole. If they think that's justified, then why don't they point out what the majority does? The majority of Christians do good works. They preform community services (here in my small town the Churches (Catholic and Protestant) work TOGETHER for the betterment of the community. We feed the hungry, visit nursing homes, care for people's needs (like clean their yard or help with painting or house cleaning etc). We do this regularly (it's called the Boaz Project. Churches throughout the US are involved in these sorts of community outreaches. There's no preaching, just service.

For every knucklehead "Christian" out there saying God hates fags or claiming they know who is going to hell etc, there are hundreds of REAL Christians living out their faith.

Übergeek 바둑이: Most Christians are not this way. But fringe groups are. And you are right as it stems from fear. But in reality, there is no need to fear other religions and certainly no justification for hate.

I remember seeing on the IYT Christian board a few years ago that if anyone disagreed with one persons ideology they were all going to 'hell'.. didn't matter that they were part of a main faith within Christianity.

I've seen a certain Christian sect on TV hating and condemning the soldiers who died fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Crazy American Fundamentalist Christian "Thank God for dead soldiers"
Christian pastor prays for death of Obama
Public display by church: "Islam is of the Devil"

A Christian based church says... http://www.godhatesamerica.com/

Nothing says "good Christian" like fearing and hating other religions.

Ferris Bueller: Here you ONLY point to the Right: "The Mosque was already at its site before the angry responses from the right about it being expanded." but I have CLEARLY shown that the Left and the Middle also object to the Mosque.

Therefore your argument is baseless.

Ferris Bueller: You don't base your arguments on much of anything.

Artful Dodger:   I don't base my arguments on public opinion polls.

MSNBC: Obama 'Did the Right Thing' With 'Non-Controversial' Mosque Remark
by Matthew Balan
On Monday's Morning Joe, MSNBC's Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski went out of their way to defend President Obama's Friday statement defending the planned mosque near Ground Zero in New York City. Brzezinski cooed that the President "did the right thing by saying what he said" and Scarborough labeled the remark "uncontroversial" and later stated the controversy over the mosque was a "wedge issue"

56% of Democrats polled say it's "wrong"
63% said they had a "right"

probably not a scientific poll :)

hahah he beat me to it lol

Bernice: they were separate questions:

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/081310_MosquePoll.pdf

Vikings: hahahah OK :)

Bernice: Ummmmmm, it was 2 separate poll questions.

Vikings: 125%??? hmmmmmmm...what ever happened t0 the 100%

Vikings: That sort of shoots a hole in the theory of the Left.

"Extreme right wing"Fox news poll
61% of Americans say the muslims have a right to build the mosque
64% say that it is the wrong thing to do 'insensitive"