rod03801: There are two basic problems with the government's idea. First it will cost too much and can't be funded. The experts are all agreeing on this one. It's simply too costly. And it doesn't even serve everyone.

More importantly, it will create a health care system that will diminish the quality of care. All one needs to do is to look to Canada or Britain and it's easy to see just how poorly the mechanisms of a government sponsored health care system run. In Canada, there is no waiting for an MRI - if you're a dog. Seriously, vets can schedule MRIs for animals in a very short time.

For people? In canada the wait time is months. Even and emergency MRI can take months.

With government health care, you don't save money. You pay more and get less.

Not only that, but the medicaid fraud is in the billions. Now if the government adds more people to medicaid (which is the plan) it's estimated that organized crime will flourish. The devil is in the details and the details contain red flags on every page.

Artful Dodger: The ONLY thing I like about the current plan, is the ability to not have to get insurance through my employer. The way things currently are, it is just TOO expensive to buy health insurance on your own. (Of course I have NO idea what this "government plan" would cost either.) I changed jobs a couple years ago, and I had to go 90 days without insurance. (There was no way I could afford the COBRA payments through my former employer). Luckily I am still young and healthy, so it didn't end up mattering.

And I have no idea how "pre-existing conditions" factor in to that either. Luckily I have none.

rod03801: Getting costs down should be a goal of the health care issue. Socialized health care isn't the way to do that. But there are ways to deal with the costs. One way is to pass Tort reform. Circumstances for law suits and money paid out must be limited. The high cost of insurance for the doctors is simply passed on to all of us. Spilling hot coffee on oneself is not worth several millions. ....... happens. Sometimes there are unavoidable consequences in health care options. Not everything comes with a guarantee. Negligence is one thing, but sometimes things happen that are unavoidable (unless foreseen).

My health coverage is good. I pay a copay. Sometimes to meet my deductible I have to fork out quite a bit in the beginning. But after the deductible is met, I'm at 100 percent.

Czuch: I am not a proponent of socialized medicine, but my cost for health insurance definitely goes up higher each year. (Many years, at a higher rate than my income goes up) I work for a very small company, and I'm afraid they will not continue to consider contributing more towards the increased cost.

I really wish health insurance was not connected to my employer. It makes it pretty bad when you change employers

(V): And our socialised system costs less to run then your mixed up system per person

No it doesnt! I have just proven to you, with myself as an example, I have paid far less by paying as i go, than if the government had taken from me the past 30 years!

Okay, now I just read your question again.... okay, maybe take the overall medical costs and divide by the number of citizens... is that what you are wanting to compare?

If so, maybe it is cheaper in your country... but I have learned long ago that cheaper is not better Your saying the cheap Jap car is better than the rolls royce, just because it costs less? I found it kind of funny that you would think that cheaper is better, especially when health is concerned

Bernice: There are plenty of horror stories that verify just how bad things are. Many people die waiting for care. That's a fact.

it has just been announced that the Govt. is considering raising the Medicare contribution to 2.5% to try and improve on waiting lists etc. They are also going on about having to wait in emergency departments for anything up to 12 hours....now that is bad. How can that be improved upon when they won't employ more nurses, who by the way....over here aren't employed by the hospital boards, they come under a "nursing pool"

In Australia EVERY working man, woman pay 1.5% of their earnings. It is called Medicare. Our system is shocking and the only way is to go private.
Over a month ago I had cause to go to a Dr. No problem getting an appointment to see him but he was so over worked I had to wait an hour to get to see him...my visit wasnt good news and I had to have a day surgery procedure done. He gave me a referring letter to a PRIVATE specialist and also sent a referral to the specialist in the local hospital. I had to wait 3 weeks to see the specialist, went on the tuesday and was in hospital on the thursday....$2500 later my problem was fixed. 3 days after my op I got the appointment to see the PUBLIC specialist...but that wasnt for another month. I could have gotten the same procedure done at no cost but I would have been a damn site sicker by then.

AD is right when he says there are waiting lists to go on waiting lists LOL....Jules I don't think your system is any better than it is here. My GF is a pom now living in Australia and she reckons the health system there is terrible. She was living/working on the outskirts of London.

http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/17482.htm

(V): Instead of disputing the facts I present, you make excuses for your poor quality health care system. So much for your 24/7 nonsense. As for waiting lists, your country now has waiting lists to get ON a waiting list.

What's the perfect system? Certainly not the model your country offers. In fact, NO COUNTRY THE WITH SOCIALIZED medical model works well. NONE.

The US system is the best. Too costly yes and that and other things need fixin. But the quality of care overall is better than anything IN THE WORLD.

period.

Artful Dodger: Yes we have a waiting list.. and they took steps to sort it.

And please.. with the cancer business, much of it was due to patient recognition. It is inappropriate to use statistics without the full depth of how they came to be.

doctors were overworked, but that was due to an archaic system of training doctors.. It's been sorted. And they are just introducing a new computer system, so any doc, etc can look up any notes they need online. And our nurses kept getting knicked by a certain allies hospitals. The training is so good. So a recruitment campaign started.

As for Red Tape... Changes are in place so I hear regarding the worst problems, but that could apply to the USA model of medical insurance. A patient waking up in A&E finding he has a big bill for just a Red Tape glitch due some very un Hippocratic attitudes. Our feedback systems are such that citizens can change things, and those who care are changing things our side of the pond. You know your system is not perfect, so what do you feel needs to be changed?

What is a perfect model Art? Surely if politics were dropped over matters of health....

And isn't it a bit corny using old figures after moaning about old figures, and not knowing the background behind figures??

BTW.... imho politics and running a country don't mix. In the end, it is what's best for the people. For eg.. despite party's here all claiming we want the expense system transparent, the voting was as such, that prosecution is harder. Despite criticisms of the PM and defence budgeting, our troops (by the two main parties) are not guaranteed what they need no matter which gets in. Despite Gurkha's fighting as British Army soldiers, it took public outrage and a certain Celeb to get them the right to live in the country they lived in for many years.

People change things, not parties.

On August 30, 2001 the Wall Street Journal reported that the British National Health Service had nearly one million patients waiting for treatment (40,000 of these waiting for surgery for over a year) and they have officially announced that henceforth the NHS will start paying patients to travel across the English channel for treatment in the European Union countries.

http://www.burtonreport.com/InfHealthCare/BritNatHealthServ.htm

Among women with breast cancer, for example, there's a 46 percent chance of dying from it in Britain, versus a 25 percent chance in the United States. "Britain has one of worst survival rates in the advanced world," writes Bartholomew, "and America has the best."

If you're a man diagnosed with prostate cancer, you have a 57 percent chance of it killing you in Britain. In the United States, the chance of dying drops to 19 percent.

Britain has only half as many CT scanners per million people as the United States, and half as many MRI scanners

Not only is the British equipment in short supply, but much of what's there should be loaded up and carted off to the nearest scrap dump. An audit by the World Health Organization, for instance, found that over half of Britain's x-ray machines were past their recommended safe time limit, and more than half the machines in anesthesiology required replacing.

Taken as a whole, Britain's universal healthcare system has evolved into a ramshackle structure where tests are underperformed, equipment is undersupplied, operations are underdone, and medical personnel are overworked, underpaid and overly tied down in red tape. In other words, your chances of coming out of the American medical system alive are dramatically better than in Britain.

As a footnote on Canada, the average wait for a simple MRI is three months. In Manitoba, the median wait for neurosurgery is 15.2 months. For chemotherapy in Saskatchewan, patients can expect to be in line for 10 weeks. At last report, 10,000 breast cancer patients who waited an average of two months for post-operation radiation treatments have filed a class action lawsuit against Quebec's hospitals.

excerpts from http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4157

This is not to say that there aren't problems that ought to be addressed in the US system. But Britain's health care is NOT a model to follow.

(V): You're wong again Jules. The health of the citizens doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of health care providers. In fact, it doesn't. Americans are grossly overweight. This is NOT the fault of the doctors, but of the patients who stuff themselves with crap food. 1/3 of older Americans are overweight. Many obese. But the health care they can get is the best in the world. Some are just too stupid to get on a diet, get with an exercise program, and be responsible for their own health.

The US health care system is the best in the world. It's available to everyone and no one can be denied care.

I don't care how many people are without healthcare. I've said that the health care in the US is the best. Just because people don't have insurance doesn't mean a thing. Some people choose NOT to be insured. They can pay for it, but they opt out. But none of that matters to the main point. The available health care is the best. You don't have to wait for emergency care. Even if you don't have insurance, you can get care. A lot of people who don't have care are lazy do nothing slouches and they deserve what they get. I work hard. When my kids were young, I had to pay for my own medical costs. I didn't have insurance when my daughter was born. It's called personal responsibility. I worked overtime to pay the costs. And I worked hard to upgrade myself to jobs that provided health insurance. I worked two jobs and sometimes three. I didn't suck off the government or other people's taxes. That's what government health care is. It doesn't promote personal responsibility. It promotes laziness.

Even your own MPs are warning America NOT to go the socialized healthcare route. It will ruin the quality of care (which your country DOESN"T have). Canada's health care system is seriously broken. You can't get certain procedures in a timely way. In some cases, patients DIE waiting for proper care.

You can't spin your way out of it. Facts are facts. WHO stats are biased towards a government system. It in NO WAY accurately reflects the quality of care. The US is number one in quality of care. That's why people from ALL OVER THE WORLD come here to get care. It's simply the best in the world.

And Czuch.. we have no problem seeing GP's same day 24/7... Blood tests, X-rays, Scans, A&E, MRI, etc.. all 24/7.

Czuch: This is my point....

"Lack of health insurance does NOT equal lack of health care, not in the US anyway!"

you are basically telling me that socialised (as such non private) works. And our socialised system costs less to run then your mixed up system per person. If you think it doesn't, then please provide a source for such a claim.. As it appears from recent news that the costs in America have gone up!

(V): I can add also, that I have paid far less for my health care over the past 30 years, paying out of my own pocket, than I would have paid into some government mandated health care system scheme!

How much do you pay a year for your "free" health care anyway? I bet it is a lot more than I have paid for my health care, and again, I have NEVER had any problems getting seen by a doctor, same day as needed, EVER!

(V): 40 million And while you may talk about yourself... what about one of those 40 million who has to wait?


This is where you are totally wrong again.... My girlfriend an I are 2 of those 40 million, but neither of us has had any problem getting health care, ever!!! I can go in today to my local clinic and see a doctor for any reason, and I will pay out of my own pocket on a sliding fee based on my income level!

Lack of health insurance does NOT equal lack of health care, not in the US anyway!

Artful Dodger: Nope. the WHO rankings I was using are 8 years old. And since it appears your costings of your current system have gotten worse. But that is beside the point.

40 million USA citizens in the most advanced (as you are saying as others would disagree) country in the world are without healthcare. 40 million And while you may talk about yourself... what about one of those 40 million who has to wait?

And btw... if you didn't know... Cancer is not the big killers in terms of USA people or as per globally recognised major health problems. Heart and obesity seem to the big western problems... well as per USA and UK they are.

And hasn't the VA health care always been a problem? And I have to ask why?? various sides have been in power and done (according to you) little to improve it. That seems to be a symptomatic failure through embarrassment then 'social medicine'.
And yes here, you can sue a doctor, we also have the GMC by which a doctor can be struck off, we also have as well as each NHS trust's internal complaints dept, a health service ombudsman.

And btw.. no-one here can be refused health care due to the whim of a health company saying "you are not covered", and our doctors here are good, A thing arises before wages as such and has done so for many many years....

It's a thing called the Hippocratic oath.... And please tell me.. why is it acceptable to have 40 million or so American people without the same health care you can expect as a paying person to a healthcare company? Is it acceptable that you have a two tier system in which the government already uses a form of socialisation via the medicare and mediaid systems and regulates. Why is it that some states have felt it necessary to set limits on docs charges for emergency care through A&E (ER to you)??

(V): More nonsense. WHO rankings are ten years old. They are no longer produced. And what is their ranking criterion? Sorry, people don't fly from the US to France to get major medical help. But they come from all over the world to get help from the top hospitals here. Our technology surpasses any other country. We're simply the best in the quality of health care.

Here's a fact for you: Americans have a higher survival rate than any other country on earth for 13 of 16 of the most common cancers. Perhaps that is why Belinda Stronach, former liberal member of the Canadian Parliament and Cabinet member (one of the health care systems touted as “superior” to the US) abandoned the Canadian Health Care system to undergo her cancer treatment in California.

The WHO ranking doesn't measure quality of care but the overall health of the citizens. Then based on the health of it's citizens, they rank the countries. They measure "life expectancy" but don't take into account such factors as poverty, homicide rate, or use of tobacco.

In the US, you don't have to wait months for emergency MRIs. You do in Canada. And even in your country, you can't get timely care. You have to wait. That's the general rule in France too. But not in the US. I can get in same day if I don't want to see my regular doctor. If I want to see only him, I may have to wait a few days or so.

The WHO report doesn't measure the quality of health care delivery. It looks at other factors. The ranking system of the WHO is strongly biased towards a uniformly government directed health care system. In that case, I'm glad the US doesn't rank well.

One only need to look at the VA health care system in the US to see just how badly government run health care systems can get. The VA has outdated equipment, poorly trained doctors, and is in need of a complete overhaul. And in the VA, you can't sue your doc if he messes up. Recently, one guy lose both his legs when the doc messed up. The soldier who lost his legs cannot sue for damages. Because? The government set that rule.

Socialized medicine is a failure. It produces unskilled doctors and little incentive to improve. The current US system may need some tweaks, but Obama will ruin it if he continues on this destructive path.

Artful Dodger: And why is Canadian health going down.. due to the strain from the USA!!

And USA health care is 37th in the world. Did you miss that fact from the WHO?

Our *cough* socialised system ranks 18th yet we pay about half the GNP rate you do.

So.. being honest and faced by details and not political dogma... which is more efficient?
And.. if we increased our GNP input by just a few %, then how do you think the UK would fair?

Btw... Cuba is only two points behind you, and it was a special favour by the Cuban medical services. Your guys who rescued people were being mucked about by your medical system, the Cubans on film agreed to treat them and could not understand why those who put their lives at risk were being denied treatment!

Why if people pay are they being denied treatment??

Czuch: Are you sure about the biggest and brightest? I suggest you look back in the field of medicine and invention.

And if how medical orgs run in terms of rules are set, then they should be able to regulate themselves. It'll be then only the law breakers who face government involvement.

(V): Nonsense. Canada's health care system is not a model to follow. People in Canada have to wait months for care. It's the Canadians that come to the US to get care. Not the other way around.

And health care in the US is already free. People get free care all the time. If you show up at the ER, you have to be treated regardless of your ability to pay. Most clinics have a sliding scale. Socialized medicine underserves. US health care is the best in the world.

As for Cuba, you watch too much Michael Moore. No one goes to Cuba for health care. That's simply a lie by the fat man.

And your Africa example is meaning less to the point. Many hundreds of medical teams from the US go to Africa to provide free medical care. So what.

Honest politicians all agree that socialized medicine will not improve care, but diminish the care. Government run health care has a proven track record of FAILURE. Period.

(V): yet you applaud corruption and high costs for a service that does not deliver




I do not applaud corruption.... I can agree that corruption is a problem and should be dealt with, and that would be a benefit to our medical system.

I do not believe that the answer to corruption is MORE government involvement.

In fact, I believe that the government is potentially more corrupt than any other private systems.

Yes, some may try to have false documentation to get free Canadian health care. But that is just someone trying to scam for something free, its not something done out of desperation, its purely a thief making a scam.


BTW, the $75K I referred to was only an example, not meant for accuracy.... the point is that a free market produces the best and brightest, you cannot dispute that, and you cannot dispute that many of the best and brightest will choose a more lucrative field when doctors pay is limited by socialism.

Czuch: You think doctors only make 75K.. is that dollars?? As UK doctors (GP's) make at least £80k and some much, much more.

The point is your system costs so much as it in some respect at fault for your countries bad balance. You go on about things being cost effective, yet you applaud corruption and high costs for a service that does not deliver the service in respect of how much it costs as part of your GNP.

If we in the UK paid that proportion of GNP.. we could all have private doctors and nurses virtually living with us. Get served silver service at hospitals.

So.. what on earth is your system doing with that cash, seeing as 40 million are not covered!

Artful Dodger: then you've missed several events!! Like USA citizens going into Canada with dubious papers to get free health care. Those who took part in the 9/11 rescue having to go to Cuba to get treatment as they were refused it by the healthcare companies. Also an African free medical treatment team going to the USA to treat those who are in need.

Btw.. it seems many republicans in gov like the idea, just the nuts and bolts need sorting. If it's an emrgency we have 24/7 doctors.. A&E just a 999 away. Blood tests and the like we can get done straight away as well. How many MP's and from what party(s)? Many here have strange ideas that are not practical!! Or common sense led. The recent expenses affair is still not sorted, as MP's, etc are still seemingly trying to be above the common law in regards to fraud and criminal prosecution. Yet from New Jersey in your country we learn that is not a good idea.

And people can always go private as it is an option.

Artful Dodger: I think a goods point is to know that in the former sovietattached socialist countries the people were annoyed and if they could, made a game of it. You had the guts to walk around with a US-flag like t-shirt and things like that, overdid socialist vocabulary to sarcasm if I go right by Havel.

Hey socialists they look for a dialog partner!! :-)

Czuch: Isn't it interesting that all countries of socialized medicine have citizens that come to the US for health care but you don't see US citizens rushing to those countries for health care needs. In the US, if I need to see my cardiologist I can get in within weeks. If it's an emergency, I see him right away. Any test I need can be done in short order. I don't have to wait months. When I went to see my cardiologist last week he determined I needed a stress test. In 10 minutes I was in the testing room. Within an hour I was talking to my doctor about the results. Then they sent me for a blood test and that took 15 mins.

People in socialized medicine countries can't get this kind of care. They get on waiting lists and in some cases they have lotteries. Obama is messing up everything. People will NOT like what he's planning if they would only listen to the warnings. Even MPs from Britain are warning the US NOT to go socialized medicine!

Hello. anyone home?

(V): I cannot understand why certain Republican factions want to keep a health system that is so expensive.



Before I read anymore.... part of the reason is because it is entrenched into our system already.

Point is, it cost a couple hundred thousand for medical education, then you want to tell the new doctor he can only make 75k per year?

So you might say then, well make it more affordable for education... then after that it is something else, and then in no time, we are full blown socialists!


Its just a part of capitalism, that things get expensive sometimes, but personally, I am willing to live with that, if it helps to avoid the failure that socialism is!

China wants to gain sympathy in the Arab world now with tv. The Africans are tired of China, Europe too, Americans laugh about depts toward China and they managed to snub their straw the Australians. This is the Chinese KP in panic.

The foreign intrusion of the Chinese is really a problem. Nobody should mind depts toward the Chinese. The trash nation China could export nice black furniture with nice inlaid work or tea maybe, at least something that makes sence. But their trash isn't worth hard money. Also I made a quick calculation, considering the lifespan of Chinese products. The balance is in favor of the foreign of China. We count with waste collection fees.

gogul: It is even important that he doesn't die too soon, his stupid kids shouldn't inherit his crime empire.

Seems that Silvio Berlusconis villa is build on a phoenician gravesite. In view of the fishy orgies he organises there, this hurts (and he likes this). I'm already irritated when archeologists number skulls on the forehead. Berlusconi wants to insinuate that the Italians (so does the rest of the world) know more than enough that he is moraly broken (I just overdo a little his own words), so what. A worse figure is not around in Europe, and he's proud of that. I mean, Bill Clinton wasn't proud of his story! I think I have to point out that Silvio Berlusconi looks ugly at this place. Well, what matters is that he is a sponsor of the mafia, involved in killings of mafiahunters. Hopefully the old man doesn't die too soon, all the disgusted want to see him locked up (and he likes this).

Bernice: Amazing!

gogul: I would never have thought that Iran was such a beautiful country....I always thought of it as barren for some reason.....thanks for the link.

I opened the web page of the Iran embassy http://www.iranembassy.ch/

There is the link 'Iran map', and there you can find beautiful pictures of the country.
Among others also these: http://www.iranmap.com/iran-photos?album=20 pics of the protests that followed the election

The iranian government must feel so lonely

The company Syngenta is selling fertilizer and deals with seeds (!). Because farmers are insolvent of these yearly unnecessary expenses, Syngenta is starting bartering, seeds against harvest.

The engagement of these companies result in monocultures, which forces farmers to more expenses to cover their needs. Companies like Syngenta provide a food security of somewhere around 60%.

Free and educated farmers reach a food security of over 80%. 100% means that salt or coffee has to get imported, soils and climate always limits the full supply.

The performance of free farmers is bigger as companies like Syngenta whose product marketing in western medias sells their engagement as life saving, green revolution, no more famine.

Farmers are in fact desperate, insolvent, kill them self about the pressure. Mack, CEO of Syngenta doesn't look like he would care about that.

Box on the ear? A valid instrument among adults.

Wasting money on weapons is one obvious thing. Only a little fraction of them would be enough to destroy the whole earth, a enormous waste regardless to reality. Dilutions like these have been constructed in countless areas, and the energy invested to solve the problems within these delutions is a waste of time too, simply destroy it. People who live their normal life don't have to suffer while the world walks from oversizing to real needs. All we need, we have it, what a beautiful world.

What I don't like is that not even greedy tycoons have to suffer. For them it's like having 1000 dishes on the table, allthough a soup, main dish and dessert is all they deserve. Our justice is ineffectve if I comes to these persons, I don't accept this. I am almost inclined to go over to fist law. I swear vilely allready it's awful and I shit and vomit on the institutions.

I think the first thing we have to notice is that all over the world, regardless of which country or culture, there could be free health care for everyone, and enough food for everyone, if we stopped wasting money on weapons.

I noticed that in the US (I might be wrong in this) those who oppose universal health care complain about its cost and those same people said nothing when the likes of Haliburton was overcharging the American public for the war effort. Money wasted in weapons and war is money that is not going to health care or education or more useful things. The $38,000 toilet in some army barracks points to a wasteful war economy and a general lack of concern for what happens to the poor of the world when so much of our money goes into war.

Anybody who says that somebody nearly died in Canada because of the health care system here is just using excuses to undermine the health care system. Living here in Canada I can say that we have one of the best health care systems in the world. It is universally available and everyone, rich or poor, can have excellent care. The big problem here is that when the Canadian version of Reaganomics hit Canada in the 1980s and 1990s, the government cut funding to hospitals. A lot of medical staff lost their jobs and many hospital beds closed down. Now the problem is that those beds need to be restored, and the government is trying to weasel its way out of paying for it. Of course, they have no problem wasting billions in Afghanistan!

Because there are less hospital beds, people have to wait for operations and other medical procedures. I wish those people would go developing countries where being poor means you will never be able to afford an operation at all. If those people who complain received a bill for the actual costs of the operation, they would die of a heart attack. It says something when a $20,000 operation is given to you for only $42 per month. No wonder medical insurers want to avoid the universal health care system like a plague.

(V): Yes. What I ment to say is that Obama might change more in a year with Swiss pharmaceutics as Switzerland was able to in 10 years

gogul: Of course it does.. billions wasted every year, when that money could be in the pockets of the people of America. And as such (knowing that many Americans are generous people) lost to those who have need, whether internal or external.

Also, I support a palliative end. I think about the moment when a doc in white tells me that he can offer me 10 more years. I wish I can die then. Daily work. I move a lot every day, I hope it'll pay off.

(V): Its getting very complex. What's happening in the health branch has global impact. All I care is if my housedocis happy, and he's not yet.

gogul: I cannot understand why certain Republican factions want to keep a health system that is so expensive. Those here are moaning about spending money, yet at the same time supporting a system that if changed would save the USA people so much money and deliver a more comprehensive health system in which (one of the options) everyone working pays a contribution. Also the right (if the UK style is used) to have a private medical insurance is still intact and also that the health companies would have to remember the oath of the health trade and not that of the dollar.

What is the problem with this??

Imsoaddicted: I can't see the videos now. When I complain, I send copies to the press and who it might concern and whom it might interest.

America has a strange paper governance culture. Forget it, its internet age.

If only I could see tv from there. What is about this woman who tells in the living rooms that she almost died because of the Canadian healtcare, and that's why Obamas healthcare challenges have to get stopped. What you really need to stop is the lobbying. It's a theft the courrent system, who wants to keep that theft alive? It's a theft here, the medication is much too expensive. Look, if I see a republican saying that health insurance is not nessessary, all we need if affordable healthcare (docs, hospitals, therapies, dents), now that would be interesting. But they seem to want both, no health security and expensive healthcare.
Spots like the mentioned are forbidden here.

Übergeek 바둑이: Thanks for your elaborations. I want to underline that i don't condemn republicanism, not at all. I just don't see any. Take no matter what. Trickle down, if you talk about trickling, you talk about drops, right? And the dimension of treason is all the water you can think of for the elite, and drops for the rest. This is a treason to the republican idea, I want to see them educate (well, that is definitly not what todays republicans are able to, younger people), there is enough room for everyone to swim in the ponds.

Übergeek 바둑이: So basically if the Republican party were to be as it was, it'd have to drop it's radical approach. Also that the progressive movement within Democrats is of a Republican origin!!

Strange old world!