Czuch

(V): The UK is a mixed economy, part capitalist and part social.


Thats not a social democracy?

(V): I supported the Bush administration when they acted like a conservative, and I still support our taking out Saddam.... but there was a time when Bush was a liberal, and I did not support him much of those times

(V): moderation is extremism..... one word. No.

If 99% of the population wanted anarchy, then your 1% stance would have to be considered extreme...

(V): first, you will never see any uncontrolled collapse of the US economy

Czuch: moderation is extremism..... one word. No.

The UK is a mixed economy, part capitalist and part social.

You liked the Bush admin, but want this government out of your way..... Ok.
You want the government to stay out of the way, but are you prepared to accept an unregulated market? So you don't think the recent things like the Intel corp rigging the market so companies only used their chips instead of AMD is an acceptable thing?

You think conclusion between companies to effectively rig prices is a good thing?
Your country was founded on the idea to protect it's citizens from all enemies.. Foreign and Domestic.

What is a depression in relation to it's effect on the American economy? What is a world wide depression in respect to America's economy?

.... And an uncontrolled collapse of the American economy would have what results?

(V): It's the Government serve the people, and how best to do it.


Right... and some say the best way for the government to serve the people is to stay the hell out of our way.

...and others who want the government to do everything for us.

You may think it is somehow a "non party" or "moderate" position to be somewhere in the middle of those two extremes, but the reality is that a middle stance is still as much of a stance as one on either end.

BTW... if in a democracy we elect our representatives, who are supposed to represent the will of the people... what if the will of the people is for one of your so called "extreme views"? Then wouldnt the "middle ground" actually be an "extreme" view?

(V): What do you consider the UK then, if not a social democracy?

(V): My point and question is.... isnt moderation a form of its own extremism?

Czuch: Free market.. since when has there been a free market? As for a true social democracy.... .... I there one?

No Czuch.. It's the Government serve the people, and how best to do it.

And yes.. most are moderates and go the middle ground. Extremism is never good.

Point is.... we are most of us already running in the middle between these two points, arent we?

Czuch: Some people feel like they want the government to do as much as possible without becoming a dictatorship, and other believe they should do as little as possible without becoming anarchists...

Czuch: Let the government do as little as possible VS let the government do the most possible?

(V): I do that with my brother all the time....

Dont you see any real divide between free market capitalists and social democracies?

Czuch: But if you go "liberal this, liberal that" it's hardly going to bring the people back together as one as you have already divided the people in your own mind.

As I said, time to forget party, have a few beers and talk.

Czuch: I'd argue it as one who wants full democracy. An end to the "first past the post system" and to see that all parties have to work at a new bill. It's wanting an end to people seeing themselves as 'left and right', but as one people.

And yes, I can see both sides... The strange thing is, at the heart of it all.. everyone wants the same, just how is disagreed on.

(V): The tea parties arent really supposed to be about bringing the republican party back together....as much as it is to bring the American people back together, and back to our roots and what this country was founded as.... but I guess that is what the republican party is supposed to stand for anyway (or at least conservatism)

(V): But again, I'm a proportional representation advocate

Couldnt one argue that is what a moderate is, and that is no different, really, from either left or right?

You are as firmly in the middle as others are on the left and also the right, see what I am getting at?

Vikings: From what I see the 'tea party' side are moaning about public spending and trying to bring the Republican party back 'together'.... But as one guy who was invited to speak said... "Under Bush the same problem was happening, but where was the discontent back then?" (paraphrased). And that is what is being picked on. The guy was booed off stage btw.

Personally, I feel everyone has the right to hold political rallies, as long as they don't break the law. And yes... the Republican party does need to pull itself together and think about what it represents if it is to become a party again.

It's happened over here a few times when a party has lost it's touch and therefore weakened it's own image in the eyes of the people... which is bad for democracy.

But again, I'm a proportional representation advocate.

Czuch: Rubbish.... If I am 'Liberal' as you call it.. I'm for proportional representation. I don't like any party to have a overwhelming majority as this I feel is bad for democracy.

But also Czuch, to be honest there are many 'right' wingers who " are convinced that they are morally and intellectually superior to every other political point of view ".

This is the heart of the problem. Politicians have so split us into thinking it's 'A' or 'B' rather then 'A+B'.

You know over here. We as one nation are speaking out against our MP's, party allegiance has been forgotten. We as a nation recognise that the abuse over here of expenses has been going on for many years and no party has done anything to end it. Some MP's even tried to put a motion through Parliament exempting MP's from the Freedom of Information Act, which has been used to get MP's expenses published. And it wasn't just MP's from one party!!

Hopefully what is happening in the UK will start a domino effect around the globe in any democratic body who abuses public money, or uses politics to profit themselves.

(V): this is what the tea party is all about
http://www.freedomworks.org/publications/the-taxpayer-tea-party-movement-is-growing

but this is what is reported about them
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2009/04/15/sorry-tea-party-movement-polls-say-americans-dont-mind-taxes.html

http://www.bermanpost.com/2009/04/tax-day-tea-party-media-coverage.html

http://www.newsmax.com/brennan/tea_parties/2009/04/21/205534.html

(V): you have to forget party allegiance and all join together. One nation as one!!!


LOL... that is not possible over here, since liberals are convinced that they are morally and intellectually superior to every other political point of view, free speech to them is anyone that agrees with their point of view

Vikings: Tea party? Not heard of it... got a link?

As for the media... over here most of the TV News companies are independent, it's when it comes to the papers that there is bias. But at the moment all the media is broadcasting or printing the people of the UK disgust at our MP's.

That this has been going on for years makes it even worse for them. That they are saying "it was within the rules" or "I made a mistake" just proves they are morally corrupt or stupid.. or both!!

But if you want to stop the rubbish in your government, as I said to Art... you have to forget party allegiance and all join together. One nation as one!!!

(V): there is an ongoing attempt to do that, the problem is that the drive by media is in the pockets of the politicians (left wing), remember the tea party's a month ago? It was target against progressiveness of the political institution but the media twisted it into an anti left right wing nut job conspiracy by a few gun toting vet's

Imagine a world in which the transport business would ask a profi margin of 10 pc. Who is making your coffee drink in the morning? I know the funny perspective but after 3 month this world would be over.

How often do you need a banker? Once a year? I don't understand the hektic of todays banking. There is no connection between the finance sector and the real economy. Even if you need a credit from a bank you are, let me express it that way, a low-lifer. I have more respect of the service of the windowcleaner as the coke turbo banker himself.

I had good reasons to x the UBS. I imp and exported with the Apartheit. I know what I been talking about.

Czuch: yes, them MP's are not about make it a better place, that's gambling for their own pc's.

Czuch: Well then, you need over there as over here. All your people to drop 'party' and get together as a nation and start complaining. Make yer politicians afraid of Americans.

Because at the moment the police and CPS are looking into these expense claims, and if they feel there is a case.. they will be prosecuting those MP's who have abused the expenses system.

And the claim "it was within the rules" will be no defence.

And the other claim by some "I didn't understand what I was doing" is not exactly gonna stand up in court either!!

(V): And the way some are answering about their expenses.... they've made it so they won't get elected.


Thats one of the frustrating problems over here..... some are so influential, they dont get voted out no matter what, really.

Take a look at ted kennedy for example.... that guy has been through so many scandals over the years, even drove a woman off a bridge while drunk, and left her to drown, and because of his influence and power, he keeps getting voted back in anyway

...and many more like him too, there has got to be some way to keep them from becoming power hungry , look out for number one types, once they get in there?

Czuch: Not all, there are some mentioned who claimed very little or nothing at all. Thank God we still do have some honest politicians.

And this year I believe there are elections this year (or next) and they are all up for re-election.

And the way some are answering about their expenses.... they've made it so they won't get elected.

.... I hope the private prosecutions go ahead!! Or Gordon Brown gets it through his thick head that the only way to clean up this mess so we trust our MP's again and our democracy is to prosecute all those who took advantage of a lax system.

(V): Do you all have term limits? What is the solution? They all go in saying they are different, they want to change the way politics works, but before long, they start to like the benefits (both monetary and power) and they all end up the same.

Problem is, once they are established, they carry a lot of clout and influence, and all they have to do is give their constituents a little gravy now and again, and they get voted right back in

(V): i cant believe how aggrogant Margaret Beckett came across on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8051222.stm


Gordon Brown needs to do something now
he needs to get of the fence and stop wishing it all go away because it WONT!!!

we now have a near bankrupt country we have a government that is a joke and the longer it goes on
the more Joe Public suffers

the public voted for Tony Blair to be PM not him and he needs to be ousted
what is he afraid of theres only 2 choices he wins or loses

Czuch: One paper over here is starting a fund for the private prosecution of MP's!!

And if it's getting to your side of the pond... GOOD!! .... Maybe it'll cause a revamp of your system and how your reps sit on the gravy train.

gogul: Because they are part of the House of Lords. And their expenses and pay is paid for from public money.

Pedro Martínez:

Czuch: That was Snoopy!

TheCrazyPuppy: You Brits are doing something correctly.... seems what you have been bickering about in here lately has made our national nightly news on this side of the pond

Said one of your bloke MPs has gotten money to upkeep his moat

Some are paying money back and one woman on the street who was interviewed said they should all be sacked!!!

(V): Why worry about some Lords. A jobless banker could get 6000$ unemployment. Bankers forgot their own risks lmao.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8049614.stm


i hope that many many more heads will roll

Artful Dodger: The system is not perfect... Too much is now razzle dazzle rather then governing. Proportional representation is supposed to be a better system, yet it so long since I looked at the subject I've forgotten the pro's and con's.

And I hope your guys get to fear your people as well. Too many deals done where your reps line their pockets through various systems... or get jobs paying big bucks after they leave the world of politics.

It's no good for democracy.

(V):   I hope our Reps will start to fear the people as well.  Too many politicans are in it for themselves IMO.   Both sides of the isle.  I hate our two party system. 

TheCrazyPuppy: Too right!! They are all getting afraid of losing their jobs. The MP's are starting to fear the people, and quite rightly too

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8047410.stm


over 100 grand already paid back

GTCharlie:  PU on the environmentalists too.  ;)  May they all have a breakdown in their septic systems. 

Artful Dodger: What about the greens??

PU on the Republicans. Double PU on the Dems!

I'm a Libertarian now.

(V): or maybe masters of perniciousness ;)

Artful Dodger: !!!! one hundred lines... "MP = Member of Parliament"

Pedro Martínez:Thanks, I gotta start paying attention  ;)