(V): wish someone would throw a nice pair a heeled oxfords MY way...been wanting those shoes for a while now :)

Artful Dodger: You watch Fox and say the press is supposed to be unbiased!! They all have slants, some deliberate to attract a certain class of viewer based on what they want to attract.

... It makes for a better payroll as advertisers can be charged more based on the idea of a more specific audience.

coan.net: Throwing shoes is an insult over there.

Artful Dodger:

"Apparently because the government feels the economy will suffer if they don't. I don't know about that one either."

.... It's like blowing up a building... uncontrolled bad news... debris everywhere.

"n fact, it was the government that caused the loss of thousands of jobs. They will claim that after deregulation other companies were created, and thereby the creation of new jobs."

Nope, not governments fault, it's called competition, free market and all. Not the governments fault that things didn't go exactly as they hoped. That was private sector decisions.

"Whoever told you that is a nut. We should ALWAYS question our leaders. But we should also support them in their difficult job."

Yes it is a nutty idea. As to support... that's a matter upto the individual, I'd say maybe a better line would be not to interfere.

"The government sucks at running a hospital. They can't rebuild New Orleans because they've created a huge process for building."

New Orleans is a big city is it not, and why not at the same time make a better city and lessen the probability of a similar event.
... And hundreds of houses compared to how many hundreds of thousands of buildings isn't exactly much.

"An excellent point which illustrates why the government often fails when it runs things: pointless policies based on ill-thought ideas. That sums it up quite nicely."

And that doesn't happen in private industry? Sinclair went under due to the C5 project, recently in the news is the trouble with hedge funds with billions been lost because (as an expert said) no-one really looked at what they were doing... and from what I hear it isn't the only case and more will apparently appear. The only thing that I see the government in the USA doing wrong in this instance is unlike the UK regulation is not mandatory in the hedge fund business.

... Oversea call centres... bad lines, badly trained staff (as I've found out) and most companies are now reversing the idea and setting things up so all call centres are based in the UK... I imagine the USA has the same problem.

All sectors private and public can make bad decisions. that is the truth of the matter.

Artful Dodger: What press are you speaking of? or media in general.The press is played by both parties much like a coach works the refs.Historically both parties have had the press in their pockets at one time or another,even GW had his moments in the sun.When I read "Obama's relationship to Blagojevich is important to know' it reminds me of all the others who's name was placed at the top of that quote in relation to Obama this past election.Rezco,Wright,Ayers,it never ends.The investigation into Blagojevich is underway,if Obama has done anything wrong we'll find out.I suppose if a politician went to a concert not knowing that a former axe murderer was also at the show we'd be hearing "blankity blank's relationship to Dave the axe murderer is important to know" Can you imagine how this "guilt by being in the same time zone" mentality is effecting any politician who aspires for office these days?

they probably won't enter a burger king without doing background checks on everyone in line

Artful Dodger: I am creative that way,hehehe

anastasia: I just love the verb "whaa-whaa". Too funny. :)))

Artful Dodger: When has the news ever been unbiased?? I mean really?? The press shows what it wants to show..period.We don't know half of ANYTHING because they only report one side (most of the time)
Examples.....when the stock market dropped 777 points one day...OMG we are going into a depressio..OMG,OMG,OMG.....the VERY next day it rebounded over 500 points...and yet we still only heard about the 777 point drop the day before....Was talking to someone today who has a friend that was in Iraq for 2 tours...all the time we heard of the helicopters coming down,the guys dying...honestly,for awile the news was so bad that I thought...WTH...why do we even USE those kinds if they keep crashing so much!!?? Truth of the matter.....97% of them didn't crash,but we never heard of THOSE stories....point I am making is that the press only tells us what it wants to...is it fair,nope,but to sit there and whaa-whaa about the ONLY reason they are not reporting it well is because he is a dem is just BS

Czuch: I find it hard to believe it would be the same for Bush, the press would be crawling under every rock looking for even the most vague connection!
He's a bigger idiot

Artful Dodger: wha...poor republicans,nobody loves the republicans,all the republicans should go out and eat worms cuz nobody loves them and always picks on them....kk,got that out of my system....I saw on the news that thye said they have had this Blagojevich under consideration for a year for considering impeachment of him.Dem OR Rep,he is an idiot

Czuch: sorry bud,not taking the bait.I've retired from these types of discussions,they go nowhere

I'f you're ever in my town we can chew the fat over a bottle of wine,I'll buy

Jim Dandy: The "fear" I mentioned isn't in the same league


...maybe I shouldnt put words into your mouth, maybe you can tell me exactly what you mean with the above comment? Because I happen to believe that it isnt 'fear mongering' when it is backed up by evidence, and so the 'fear' you mentioned isnt really 'fear mongering' at all...

Jim Dandy: Its not about word games.... you implied that the fear Bush used to get us into war was a lie and cost us way more than the fear dems use on the elderly and the poor uneducated, which you imply is more accurate and less costly, so that somehow makes it less of a problem?

anastasia: You may think they are all over it, and as far as the Governor is concerned, you may be correct.... but image this was a republican, and instead of Obama it was Bush???? Obama says he had no involvement, and thats it, God has spoken and everyone goes on their merry way.... I find it hard to believe it would be the same for Bush, the press would be crawling under every rock looking for even the most vague connection!

Czuch: I'm not interested in either word games,or silly messege board battles where the initial post becomes twisted beyond recognition.I said my piece,carry on

Jim Dandy: The "fear" I mentioned isn't in the same league


I agree... the fear you mentioned is REAL(see 9/11), and the fear I mentioned is imagined, so, no, they are not in the same league at all!

Artful Dodger: all the news I have seen on it they have been ripping him up pretty good...bullcrap on.."If Blagojevich was a Republican, the press and other liberals would be all over it."That is such crap the press in my area has covered the story quite well.....maybe your news sux?

Czuch: The issues you mentioned are typical politics,both sides play that game.The "fear" I mentioned isn't in the same league

Artful Dodger: You think they've been easy on Blagojevich? It hasn't seemed that way,and I don't see him getting any support from either party.Craig seemed to have no problems completing his term after he had said he was resigning.

You can click on it to make it bigger - but it says "Politics in Illinois - Where "Cell Number" on your business card has a slightly different meaning.

coan.net: why does the thought of going to war against Iran scare you? I would be more scared of Iran with the ability to arm terrorists with nuke weapons, but that is just me.

Jim Dandy: fear is a very valuable tool


Yeah, like when liberals scared the elderly into believing that mean republicans were going to take away their social security, or when liberals scared the poor uneducated minorities that mean republicans were going to take away their welfare, without scare tactics aimed at ignorant people, democrats wouldnt have near their support base!

I was a little scared this weekend. I heard that a reporter in Iraq threw his shoes at President Bush, and I was afraid he would use that as an excuse to start yet another war, like with Iran.... you know, since people in Iran wear shoes and such.

Artful Dodger: Fox ran that on Huckabee?

They must be hiring liberal writers,they're never usually that funny

Jim Dandy: yep...I agree yet again with ya :)

anastasia: I think Democrats were very restrained,too a fault.A President should be given a degree of respect,but the rest is earned

Jim Dandy: I agree...I think Bush should have been impeached,actually..instead he was permitted to run this country into the ground....way to go!!

Jim Dandy: I'm sorry,but THAT is funny!

Artful Dodger: He leveraged that blank check to accomplish his agenda,fear is a very valuable tool

as are a pair of Nike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8GOrc0-Ygg

Artful Dodger: re:" If the Republicans do to Obama what the Democrats did to Bush, then the Republicans are a lower life form than slime"

He had the country in the palm of his hand after 9/11,.....he was given a blank check and proved himself untrustworthy.Obama has yet to take office,if he performs like Bush,he should recieve the same treatment.

In an article dated 2007 it's saying health insurance premiums rose by 6.1% the lowest increase in 10 years in America.

Yet the health care system in the USA is very inefficient and not ranked high in the world tables.

Artful Dodger: Is this benefits due to health insurance, etc.

..... Well, If the seemingly over charging health insurance companies were kept in check.. rather if what I've seen a bit corrupt.. wouldn't that bring costs down?

Artful Dodger: If it's not the job of the gov to not bail out failing industries.... Then why the bank rescues? Or the rescue of Fannie mae, etc?
And I would have thought that helping the jobs of millions survive while something can be sorted is a good thing... Isn't it??

And yes, some work on pay, what needs to be kept or dropped, possible mergers, maybe some more cost effective manufacturing systems, or as mentioned the production of realistic cars rather then gas eaters.

No, I don't believe the government is always right, I was told it was so by a supporter of the republicans and that we shouldn't question our leaders..

... But I know that is wrong.

And for private sectors doing better jobs... .. No, not in all cases, not even in the majority of what is effectively public sector projects. We had corporate man slaughter introduced due to a previously public sector org now gone privately owned, Surgeons over here are getting very annoyed with private run sterilisation companies mucking up kits for operations, so the operation has to be cancelled. I could go on... like how we saw a private tube maintenance team doing bodge jobs on tube tracks.

.... But the post will be two pages long.

Private are good in some instances, public in other, it's always been the way and it is a good system. The trick is knowing which and not just mucking about based on pointless policies based on ill thought ideas.

Ahh.. another, our water pipe system. The companies were told last year to fix the leaks as the leakage was so great it was diabolical.

Artful Dodger: I got my number from fox a couple a weeks ago, according to them it cost about $1000 more in labor to produce an American made car with a union compared to an American made non-union made car, Honda I believe, and the wages were about $80 per hour for the union made as compared to about $60 for the non union, this was on t.v. so I can't produce the quote,
Even with your numbers $75,000 to sit in one place and tighten lug nuts when they come by would be a job I'd be more than happy to take

Charles Martel: $80.00 an hour to stand in one place and do a repetitive thing, sounds just comfortable to me

and their health care and pensions??? they are all of us

Artful Dodger: And who signed the contracts??? and the shareholders were happy, and the board members and ceo's counted their millions and look at AIG and thier bailout, while they splurge. but sure keep those workers in line , why should they have a comfortable living wage.. healthcare, ahhh don't get sick or just die,, retirement??? darn... can't they just die or live off ssi? who signed these contracts. forget making a better product.. just move the factories overseas! no wonder they aren't working

anastasia: yes that was sarcasm , sorry

Charles Martel: don't alot of them ALREADY do that??

Can't these companies just go somewhere where there are no unions and child labor laws and environmental laws?? like India, Indonesia, Mexico???maybe then they could pay workers a dollar a day and still charge $100, for a pair of sneakers

Czuch: yep,it is our money and boy how they love to spend it on stuff,huh??!!

(V): yes to what you are saying....what is it called...Pork Barrel Spending??
What the government spends money on is just obsurd.....I once saw a report...no kidding,I couldn't make this one up...they were spending money to study the flow rate of ketchup......OMG,what can even be said to THAT one!?

Sure its always them , can't they just shut shut up and go to work? of course companys will pay them fairly , and treat them right without being forced to,they won't make them work in dangerous unsafe conditions,just like they won't pollute the environment, we don't need those unions, nooooo, not today. all they do is interfere.Its the reason these companies are in trouble, not because they didn't modernize and restructure,

anastasia: Good point.... after all, it is all our money, both what the congress makes and what they are planning on giving away to the auto....

I mean, since we just bailed out the banks, cant we make them give loans to the autos?

anastasia: But that's just part of it.... I think the expense bills should be cut by 3/4

If they have to have an official dinner, let them order from pizza hut or McD's and have a bud instead of expensive wines, etc.

That's a few million saved each year at least.

Czuch: I think congress should give back some of the pay raises THEY also always vote in favor of for themselves too :)
I love how THEY vote on if they should get a pay raise...let us the voters vote on that one and see what WE say

Artful Dodger: Like who? Bernard Madoff??

Are you telling me that all the economists and such (you have like we have civil servants?) have now left the white house and all the related depts that deal with the economy already!!

Are you willing to stake millions on jobs on someone who will disagree just because they don't like your new government?

.. Funny, when the Bush was in power I was lead to believe (or told to) that the government is always right.

Artful Dodger: a huge blow which the US economy could not withstand."

I have to agree with you on this one, except that I am sure economists would have opposite opinions just as scientists have different views on global warming.

I tend to believe that the US economy would be resilient enough to rebound from anything sooner or later.... just like the global climates

anastasia: Upper management SHOULD give back..

If I were in congress right now, I would tell them that I would not listen to one word they have to say until each and everyone there begging for us to help them survive was to quit!

Only then would I be assured they have the best interest of the industry in mind and not their own well being!

coan.net: As anastasia has said - it is more of a loan then a bailout.


I dont have to read more than that right there to know it is a bad idea! If this was really a loan and a good idea, then there would be hundreds of private banks etc lining up to give them financial help! The fact that they are asking the federal government for help tells me straight away that they have no banks or other private institutions that think this is not a huge risk! Why should we take a risk that nobody else thinks is worth it?

What thet are asking for, pure and simple is a bail out, it is notever going to get paid back, using the word 'loan' is a bunch of crap!