(V): Totally against the teaching of Jesus?

Personally, I do not subscribe to any organized religion, and see the Bible as nothing more than a book.

I looked around and found a few cases that seem to contradict your "Totally" comment. But again, one of the main faults of the "Bible" is that anyone can search for any quote that seems to support whatever thing they want to proclaim as the word of "God".

How about Luke 23:36?

And he [Jesus] said to them [His disciples], ‘But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘And he was numbered with transgressors’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.’ They said, ‘Lord, look, here are two swords.’ And He said to them, ‘It is enough.

That doesn't sound "Totally" to me.

I also read something about him creating a whip and whipping people. Of course you'll have to pardon my lack of the exact quote. Sure, it may have been "figurative", but it cracks me up that people pick and choose what parts are "figurative" and which parts are "literal"

Personally, it's all Hooey.

Übergeek 바둑이: From what I remember when one of Christ's disciples cut off an ear with a sword he healed it...

The use of violence is totally against the teachings of Jesus.

This fear of Muslims is also against what Christ said...

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28 KJV)

Artful Dodger: Never brought up Healthcare and prisons as stated by Fox that I can see. IMHO .... it's all in your imagination.

Iamon lyme:

> The so called contradiction between Christian values and gun use exists primarily in your own mind. During his ministry Jesus only had the clothes on his back. Are you suggesting all Christians give up everything but the clothes on their backs?

I suppose the Sermon on the Mount says nothing about being violent. I am sure Jesus walked around with a sword under his cloak. I suppose giving up a gun is the same as walking around destitute. Jesus never said to give up everything. He simply said to give up violence and selfishness. I suppose that part of his message escapes a lot of people.


> And can you show me where he exorted his followers to 'lay down thy staff and thy rod'? Those were the common weapons of choice in those days, for defense against wild animals and people who would attack them.

From Luke 6:27-31

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

And when the Romans came to arrest Jesus, did he pick a sword and fight his way out of the jam or did he surrender to avoid killing?

There is a very good reason why Jesus carried no weapons. He did not believe in them. So my question is simplke: Should a Christian, somebody who claims to follow the example of Jesus, carry or own weapons?


> You over simplify Christian values and beliefs, either intentionally or because of ignorance. I doubt you would claim ignorance, so should I assume it's intentional?

Well then, show me an example in which Jesus says it is OK to own, use or carry weapons? Then explain how the use or ownership of weapons relates to Christian values. I am ignorant and in need of enlightenment.

(V): We all know how you love Fox. Like the last time your brought this very subject up.

Artful Dodger: Nope... it just came up on my youtube recommendations.

No answer from you.. as usual.

"he loves to take things out of context"

As much as Fox news?

EOS!!

(V): So was Cenk Uygur lying when he called Brietbart a liar?

BTW, that's very OLD news and clearly you cherry picked that one just for me.

Unlike you, I watch Fox and get the full context of what's being said. Uygur is so slanted left he loves to take things out of context if he can make Fox look bad (even to the point of lying - which he does all the time).

Nice try tho Jules!

Under the health care bill being considered in the Senate Finance Committee, Americans who fail to pay a penalty for not buying insurance could be charged up to $25,000 by the Internal Revenue Service or face up to a year in jail, according to congressional analysts.

That's just one of the concerns Republicans say the Democratic-run Congress is ignoring in the rush to pass legislation to overhaul the nation's health care system.

"The American people expect us to get this right and to do it in an open, honest and bipartisan debate. That's what they deserve," said Sen. Johnny Isakson, R-Ga., in his party's radio and Internet address Saturday. "But that's not what they're getting from the Democrats on Capitol Hill."


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/26/baucus-mandate-penalty-lead-prison-congressional-analysts-say/


http://swampland.time.com/2010/04/14/jail-time-for-insurance-evaders-yes-said-fox-news/


so explain why fox news stated people will go to jail. Or I'll treat your denial as utter rubbish. Is that to hard for you?

(V): I remember that "controversy" well and it didn't happen that way. Clever editing by the Turk tho.

Artful Dodger: The lie was plain and simply put in the link. Fox news were telling people that they would go to jail if they didn't take out health insurance...

.... it was very clearly stated in the video

And then Bill O'Reilly stated he and Fox news have never said such a thing.

...yet many video clips were collected showing that on Fox news it was said. Including one that shows Bill and Glenn together with Glenn saying it.

...On a stack of Bibles are you going to state that no such thing was present in the video? That would take "a dishonest man twisting things".

Iamon lyme: I was a die hard lib in my 20's. By the time I was thirty, I matured and whatdoyaknow? I saw through the lies. I was an asst VP in the CWA and that really opened my eyes.

Artful Dodger: Well that's the problem, because asking the 'wrong' questions is what got me into trouble. I found myself on the outside looking in when I thought I was already in. I became less defensive when it became obvious the people who said question everything didn't mean that I could question them. My choice was to either change affiliations or shut up and not say anything.. heh heh heh heh heh heh

It was a tough decision to make.. NOT!

Iamon lyme: If one asks the right questions, they wouldn't be able to remain a liberal. But they don't ask those questions and they march only to one beat. They are like lemmings. (apologies to lemmings).

Artful Dodger: I don't know the name, is he on radio or tv? Or both?

Maybe he should stick to conservatism and leave the left leaning to someone else.. I was never a good liberal myself, I asked too many questions. I think I became a full fledged conservative shortly before my thirtieth birthday.

Iamon lyme: Have you ever listened to Cenk Uygur? He actually makes sense when he supports conservative ideas. But when he leans left, he falls on his fat face!

Übergeek 바둑이: The so called contradiction between Christian values and gun use exists primarily in your own mind. During his ministry Jesus only had the clothes on his back. Are you suggesting all Christians give up everything but the clothes on their backs?

And can you show me where he exorted his followers to 'lay down thy staff and thy rod'? Those were the common weapons of choice in those days, for defense against wild animals and people who would attack them. You over simplify Christian values and beliefs, either intentionally or because of ignorance. I doubt you would claim ignorance, so should I assume it's intentional?

(V): Priceless, Cenk Uygur calls Brietbart a liar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ris7kWRonW8

opps

Yeah Jules, that guy is SOOOOOOOoooOOooOoOoooooo credible. NOT!

replaced by Al Sharpton!!!

(V): Oh rubbish. There was nothing there. What a joke. All I saw was a dishonest man twisting things as the Turk guy does all day long. How about you articulate exactly what this "lie" is supposed to be. You know, in your own words.

Übergeek 바둑이: It depends on your point of view. In the would be thief or rapists "perfect world", he shouldn't expect to find himself staring down the barrel of a gun and being invited to re-examine his evaluation of my values somewhere else.

Whose 'perfect world' are you promoting here?

Artful Dodger: What has that got to do with the price of chips? Bill lied and the Fox news channel lied... end of. It's documented.

.. The only other option is that the Fox news researchers couldn't research themselves out of a wet paper bag. Which makes them incompetent...... but I think it was Fox news just trying to lie and relying on it's watchers having a goldfish style memory.

(V): The Young Turks??? If you went any further left you'd fall off the cliff!!!

Is Bill O'Reilly and Fox that stupid... or is it they think their audience is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKH5rLVhxK4&

...Can you spot how many times O'Reilly is busted on lying?

Artful Dodger:

> Of course you can teach responsible gun ownership. Thousands do it all the time. And since we have the Constitutional right to own guns, that's the best you're gonna get. You won't get rid of guns with extreme examples of abuse. That happens in many siituations. You don't limit freedoms because of the abuse of a few.

The truth is that Americans love their guns. It is why the USA has one of the highest per capita rates of gun ownership in the world. 99.99 % of the population are responsible. There is the odd psychopath or sociopath that commits horrendous crimes.

Some day it will cause problems. If there is ever real austerity measures then there will be rioting, and violence will follow. Americans are not used to scarcity of resources or money any more.

To me it seems a big contradiction that some defenders of gun ownership claim to be good Christians. They seem to think that it is OK to hold a gun with one hand and a Bible with the other hand. Sarah Palin comes to mind, with the Christian rethoric and the NRA suppor It is a contradiction because Jesus never carried any weapons. He never condoned the use or possession of weapons. But then we as human beings are very good at contradicting ourselves.

I know it is stupid to suggest that children should learn gun use in schools. I say it because if we keep saying that learning to use guns will make children defenders of freedom in the future, then it would make perfect sense to formalize that training. Nobody would like to see that in schools and we somehow assume it is OK to do it at home. We assume all parents who own guns are equipped to teach their children properly.

In a perfect world there would be no guns, no violence, no crime, no wars, etc. We use the imperfect nature of the world to condone our own violence and to toss aside our most cherished values. It is why the contradiction between Christian values and gun use arises.

Eventually something will have to give because all those guns will become a problem if scarcity of resources or austerity measures put pressure on our social structure. We see signs of this in the rioting in Greece, Paris, London, the old LA riots, etc. The we will see our police moving in with lethal force against rioters armed to the teeth. It is a scary thought.

Mousetrap: Sadly no but you'd think they can see what's currently happening and what's necessary to turn it around.

Artful Dodger: I agree! But they wont do it.

Mousetrap: You are exactly right. And the fault lies with all of us for allowing multiculturalism and its lie that all cultures are equal, to prevail. We actually teach that slop to our kids. Do you think the powers in Islamic countries teach that Western culture is equivalent to Eastern (particularly their own)? Not only that, but Muslim countries fight with each other over who has the better values.

It's time to through out the idea that all cultural values are equal (because they are not) and it's time to deport those that refuse to assimilate. Stop allowing Muslims into your countries unless they agree to assimilate! And just for fun, send some of the progressives of the world to live in Muslim countries. Let's see just how they feel after a year under Islamic rule!

Artful Dodger: We would not get away with it in their country.

http://youtu.be/fkhHK65nTJk

Congrats on your efforts in multiculturalism! You've succeeded (in ruining your country!!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fk6qkHs0oM&

The New American Century (2009) FULL LENGTH MOVIE

Cost-plus contracts

Halliburton earns money from the government primarily through its "cost-plus" contracts. Under a cost-plus contract, a government contractor like Halliburton purchases all the necessary items to complete a job order and is subsequently reimbursed all those costs from the government -- and then paid a percentage of those costs (the plus) as a fee. A typical contractor earns a base fee of 1 percent of the estimated contract cost and an "incentive fee" of up to 9 percent of the cost estimate based on the contractor's performance in a number of areas, including cost control. The upshot: The contractor will never spend $1 million to do a job when it can spend $10 million and thereby earn a higher fee. So, contractors actually earn more money by wasting taxpayer money. The cost-plus method of accounting is the primary system today for determining how much government contractors are owed by the taxpayer. Congress and whistle blowers have criticized Halliburton and the Army Corp of Engineers for inflating costs via cost-plus contracts.

Halliburton's most lucrative contract is with the U.S. Army. It is officially known as "LOGCAP" (or Logistics Civil Augmentation Program). LOGCAP is a "cost plus" contract performed by Halliburton's KBR subsidiary. This is the contract that requires KBR to feed, house and transport troops around Iraq and the middle east.

The LOGCAP contract is the most lucrative contract being performed in Iraq today. Under the cost-plus provisions of LOGCAP, the U.S. government pays KBR 1 percent of every purchase KBR makes with the possibility of an additional 2 percent as an incentive bonus that is paid if the company is operating efficiently and honestly. When KBR buys food for the troops, it is paid 1 percent of the cost of that food. When KBR constructs a new military housing facility, it is paid 1 percent of the construction costs. When KBR houses its staff at hotels or purchases trucks and equipment to carryout its duties, it is paid 1 percent of those costs.

LOGCAP and other cost-plus contracts require the company to purchase items only from a vendor offering the lowest price if the amount of the purchase order exceeds $2,500. Thus, purchase orders exceeding $2,500 require KBR to search for competing vendors in order to find the lowest price available. But KBR often takes a purchase order exceeding $2,500 and breaks it down into its parts so that the order becomes more than one purchase order, each valued below $2,500. This allows the company to avoid searching for the lowest-priced vendor, which results in higher costs to the U.S. taxpayer. About 70 to 80 percent of KBR's purchase orders are below $2,500 - mainly because large-value purchases are broken down so they don't exceed $2,500.

A former employee of Halliburton said the company's motto is "Don't worry about price. It's cost-plus." Congressman Henry Waxman (D-CA) said "The higher Halliburton's costs are, the larger its profits will be." Of the firms for which Halliburton purchased items, Waxman said "Many of the preferred firms were unreliable or charged 'outrageous' prices. [Halliburton] Supervisors did not encourage buyers to identify alternative vendors and, in some cases, wanted to use a higher price vendor on the preferred list rather than a new, cheaper vendor."

(V): Conservatism in the US is on the rise and a huge majority. It's independents that sway elections and they are leaning rightly Right.

"The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was an American think tank based in Washington, D.C.. It was co-founded as a non-profit educational organization by neoconservatives William Kristol and Robert Kagan. The PNAC's stated goal was "to promote American global leadership."[1] Fundamental to the PNAC were the view that "American leadership is both good for America and good for the world" and support for "a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity."[2] The PNAC exerted influence on high-level U.S. government officials in the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush and affected the Bush Administration's development of military and foreign policies, especially involving national security and the Iraq War......

.....Former US Congressman Lionel Van Deerlin and UK Labour MP and Father of the House of Commons, Tam Dalyell, criticized PNAC members for promoting policies which support an idealized version of war, even though only a handful of PNAC members have served in the military or, if they served, seen combat.[44]

As quoted in Paul Reynolds' BBC News report, David Rothkopf stated:

Their [The Project for the New American Century's] signal enterprise was the invasion of Iraq and their failure to produce results is clear. Precisely the opposite has happened. The US use of force has been seen as doing wrong and as inflaming a region that has been less than susceptible to democracy. Their plan has fallen on hard times. There were flaws in the conception and horrendously bad execution. The neo-cons have been undone by their own ideas and the incompetence of the Bush administration.[24]

In discussing the PNAC report Rebuilding America's Defenses (2000), Neil MacKay, investigations editor for the Scottish Sunday Herald, quoted Tam Dalyell: "'This is garbage from right-wing think-tanks stuffed with chicken-hawks -- men who have never seen the horror of war but are in love with the idea of war. Men like Cheney, who were draft-dodgers in the Vietnam war. These are the thought processes of fanaticist Americans who want to control the world....

........The Foreign Policy Initiative (FPI) is an American think tank based in Washington, D.C. that was founded in 2009. It is committed to strong U.S. diplomatic, economic and military engagement in the world, support for democratic allies of the U.S., and opposition to "rogue regimes" that threaten American interests. FPI shares directors and staff with the now defunct and controversial Project for the New American Century, and is described in the media as its successor organization."

Übergeek 바둑이: Of course you can teach responsible gun ownership. Thousands do it all the time. And since we have the Constitutional right to own guns, that's the best you're gonna get. You won't get rid of guns with extreme examples of abuse. That happens in many siituations. You don't limit freedoms because of the abuse of a few.

Artful Dodger:

> Since teachers are not equipped to teach sex education, why not bring in professional prostitutes?

Of course, sex education is about teaching children how to have sex, not about how to avoid unwated sexually transmitted diseases or unwanted pregnancies. That is of course, teching responsibility.

Now, how do you teach responsibility with guns? Some parents are equipped, other are not. if every parent were equipped to teach responsible use of guns, there would be no Columbine massacres.

September 11, 2011
Obama's Vapor Legislation
Dan Joppich




Obama's new campaign catch phrase is "Pass This Bill!" He said some variation of "pass this jobs bill" 16 times in his campaign speech before the joint session Thursday and he's repeating it ad naussium in stump speeches since.

This is a little different than last campaign's "Hope and Change!"

Unfortunately nobody has seen any "Bill", let alone reviewed it, analyzed it, debated it, etc. The Congressional Budget Office hasn't scored it (as they've said in the past - we can't estimate it because it's just a speech) so we don't know the cost. And nobody has figured out how we are going to pay for it. Heck, nobody even knows how many jobs it will create even though it's titled American Jobs Act. Obama doesn't even know how many jobs it will create. He never mentioned that anywhere in his campaign speech on Thursday either.

My new catch phrase is, "Pass what bill?"

Apparently his target audience is Malia and Sasha. According to the White House Press Office, Obama's kids get it. Jay Carney gets it. The Liberal Lame Stream Media get it. 100% of the Democrats in the Senate and House are ready to vote for it. No logical person gets it though.

Any thinking American would say, "Get what? There's nothing to get."

As Pelosi says, "We have to pass the bill so you can see what's in it." This seems to be the new normal in Obama's Liberal Progressive bizarro-world. Not only don't we get to read it before voting on it - we don't even get to see it.

Let's call it "vapor legislation".

Speaking about Obama, a Democrat said this:

"In my district, the enthusiasm for him has mostly evaporated," said Representative Peter A. DeFazio, Democrat of Oregon. "There is tremendous discontent with his direction."

heading into an election....that's not good....for libs. Great for America though!

(V): clearly there is more violence, both in rhetoric and physical violence, on the liberal side. It's a no brainer.

rod03801: I think trying to say more conservatives then liberals or vice versa have gone crazy and killed is nuts.

But.. you could ask under your version of the freedom of information act there is such data available.

Vikings: lol I said it is statistically inevitable that there will be a rampage. NOT that half the gun owners will go on the rampage.

You just can't have the loose controls on guns and ownership without one disturbed person flipping and ending up taking out his fear/anger induced reality on others.

Can I prove this is true? History shows it is true. It's not spin, it's a fact.

rod03801: I've wondered about that too, but have you noticed we are aways informed of a crazies political views if it sounds like right wing ranting?

In my local news paper if a politician has done something embarassing or said something odd, more often than not you'll see his party affiliation in parenthesis next to his (or her) name. But not if that politician happens to be a Democrat. Sometimes misinformation is subtley passed along more by omission than by out right lying. So it is very possible to create a mental image in the publics eye that doesn't necessarily reflect reality.

When someone talks about the public being ignorant of what is going on, I don't believe it's always the publics fault. It never hurts to read between the lines.. the aliens are watching, and waiting to make their move, so we must be ever vigilant.