Übergeek 바둑이: John 3:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3%3A16&version=NIV#en-NIV-26127


and baptism has nothing to do with accepting Jesus in Christianity, John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
This verse clearly confirms that all that is needed to be born again and saved it to believe

(V):

> Is it? Is that straight out of Roman Catholicism ..?

Just to clarify, Jesus as the savior of humanity comes directly from Saint Paul. In the Pauline view of salvation, human beings are born tainted with Adam and Eve's original sin. In Paul's interpretation, death (or damanation if you will) came through one man: Adam. Then life (salvation) came through one man, the Messiah; that is, Jesus Christ. I forget the exact verses of the New Testament, but it is attributed to Paul.

Then, the sacrament of baptism takes the place of circumcision. Circumcision is the sign of the covenant between God and Abraham. When a Christian is baptized, he or she accepts Jesus Christ as their true savior and enters a new Covenant between God and humanity. When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist we have the manifestation of the Holy Trinity, and at that moment God enters into a ne Covenant with humanity. At least that is the theological interpretation that came through the centuries.

I am no expert in theology, but I did do some reading on it. The "meat and bones" of Christianity is found in Paul's writings. He was Christianity's first great theologian.

The eternal flame of Muslim outrage
by Michelle Malkin
Creators Syndicate
Copyright 2010

Shhhhhhh, we’re told. Don’t protest the Ground Zero mosque. Don’t burn a Koran. It’ll imperil the troops. It’ll inflame tensions. The “Muslim world” will “explode” if it does not get its way, warns sharia-peddling imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. Pardon my national security-threatening impudence, but when is the “Muslim world” not ready to “explode”?

At the risk of provoking the ever-volatile Religion of Perpetual Outrage, let us count the little-noticed and forgotten ways.

Just a few months ago in Kashmir, faithful Muslims rioted over what they thought was a mosque depicted on underwear sold by street vendors. The mob shut down businesses and clashed with police over the blasphemous skivvies. But it turned out there was no need for Allah’s avengers to get their holy knickers in a bunch. The alleged mosque was actually a building resembling London’s St. Paul’s Cathedral. A Kashmiri law enforcement official later concluded the protests were “premeditated and organized to vitiate the atmosphere.”

Indeed, art and graphics have an uncanny way of vitiating the Muslim world’s atmosphere. In 1994, Muslims threatened German supermodel Claudia Schiffer with death after she wore a Karl Lagerfeld-designed dress printed with a saying from the Koran. In 1997, outraged Muslims forced Nike to recall 800,000 shoes because they claimed the company’s “Air” logo looked like the Arabic script for “Allah.” In 1998, another conflagration spread over Unilever’s ice cream logo — which Muslims claimed looked like “Allah” if read upside-down and backward (can’t recall what they said it resembled if you viewed it with 3D glasses).

Even more explosively, in 2002, an al-Qaida-linked jihadist cell plotted to blow up Bologna, Italy’s Church of San Petronio because it displayed a 15th century fresco depicting Mohammed being tormented in the ninth circle of Hell. For years, Muslims had demanded that the art come down. Counterterrorism officials in Europe caught the would-be bombers on tape scouting out the church and exclaiming, “May Allah bring it all down. It will all come down.”

That same year, Nigerian Muslims stabbed, bludgeoned or burned to death 200 people in protest of the Miss World beauty pageant — which they considered an affront to Allah. They shouted, “Allahu Akbar!” And “Down with beauty!” And “Miss World is sin!” Contest organizers fled out of fear of inflaming further destruction. When Nigerian journalist Isioma Daniel joked that Mohammed would have approved of the pageant and that “in all honesty, he would probably have chosen a wife from among them,” her newspaper rushed to print three retractions and apologies in a row. It didn’t stop Muslim vigilantes from torching the newspaper’s offices. A fatwa was issued on Daniel’s life by a Nigerian official in the sharia-ruled state of Zamfara, who declared that “the blood of Isioma Daniel can be shed. It is abiding on all Muslims wherever they are to consider the killing of the writer as a religious duty.” Daniel fled to Norway.

In 2005, British Muslims got all hot and bothered over a Burger King ice cream cone container whose swirly-texted label resembled, you guessed it, the Arabic script for “Allah.” The restaurant chain yanked the product in a panic and prostrated itself before the Muslim world. But the fast-food dessert had already become a handy radical Islamic recruiting tool. Rashad Akhtar, a young British Muslim, told Harper’s Magazine how the ice cream caper had inspired him: “Even though it means nothing to some people and may mean nothing to some Muslims in this country, this is my jihad. I’m not going to rest until I find the person who is responsible. I’m going to bring this country down.”

In 2007, Muslims combusted again in Sudan after an infidel elementary school teacher innocently named a classroom teddy bear “Mohammed.” Protesters chanted, “Kill her, kill her by firing squad!” and “No tolerance — execution!” She was arrested, jailed and faced 40 lashes for blasphemy before being freed after eight days. Not wanting to cause further inflammation, the teacher rushed to apologize: “I have great respect for the Islamic religion and would not knowingly offend anyone, and I am sorry if I caused any distress.”

And who could forget the global Danish cartoon riots of 2006 (instigated by imams who toured Egypt stoking hysteria with faked anti-Islam comic strips)? From Afghanistan to Egypt to Lebanon to Libya, Pakistan, Turkey and in between, hundreds died under the pretext of protecting Mohammed from Western slight, and brave journalists who stood up to the madness were threatened with beheading. It wasn’t really about the cartoons at all, of course. Little-remembered is the fact that Muslim bullies were attempting to pressure Denmark over the International Atomic Energy Agency’s decision to report Iran to the UN Security Council for continuing with its nuclear research program. The chairmanship of the council was passing to Denmark at the time. Yes, it was just another in a long line of manufactured Muslim explosions that were, to borrow a useful phrase, “premeditated and organized to vitiate the atmosphere.”

When everything from sneakers to stuffed animals to comics to frescos to beauty queens to fast-food packaging to undies serves as dry tinder for Allah’s avengers, it’s a grand farce to feign concern about the recruitment effect of a few burnt Korans in the hands of a two-bit attention-seeker in Florida. The eternal flame of Muslim outrage was lit a long, long time ago.

Übergeek 바둑이:

"Mary is virgin because in that way there can be no doubt about the parentage of Jesus. If Mary were not a virgin, somebody could say that Jesus was the son of a man and not the son of God...."

Nope. Some could say that a virgin birth has more to do about spirit than genetics.

"Jews did not pursue conversion of others because of a sense of uniqueness and heredity, "

I heard it was because conversion was a major learning curve.. more to do with current thought from various Rabbi's. Same as Ghandi on his thoughts of conversion from religion to another... such conversion is not to be taken likely due to having to learn the language of the religion you are thinking of converting to.

"The conversion of others into Christianity comes from Jesus being the savior of humanity. Only those who accept Jesus as their savior can enter His kingdom (i.e. Heaven), thus conversion is necessary in order to be saved."

Is it? Is that straight out of Roman Catholicism after those who disagreed with the church at the time of formation were put to the sword, burnt, hung, crucified, etc by the early Roman church? Many fellowships of Christians were killed, their books burnt by fellow Christians in order for a formal doctrine on who and what Christ said/is to be put into a standardised text.

.. again as I mentioned before on this board.. what religion is God?

Review: David Limbaugh’s Crimes Against Liberty

Every
president has his bête noire.  For Reagan, it was Sam Donaldson.  For
Clinton, it was Ann Coulter.  For President Obama, it’s David Limbaugh.

No better book has been written compiling the evidence against a president that Limbaugh’s Crimes Against Liberty. 
“This book is about a young presidency,” Limbaugh opens.  “[Y]oung, but
already the most destructive in American history.  Everything about
Barack Obama’s radical background signals his visceral contempt for
America – its culture, its values, and its political and economic
systems.  His unmistakable goal is to bring America down to size – an
America that has been, in his view, too big for its britches, selfish,
exploitative, unfairly wealthy, arrogant, and dismissive.”

(V):

> The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman,
> but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

Mary is virgin because in that way there can be no doubt about the parentage of Jesus. If Mary were not a virgin, somebody could say that Jesus was the son of a man and not the son of God. Thus the Immaculate Conception is the miracle that proves that Jesus is the son of God, and not of Joseph, Mary's husband. We can compare this with Greek gods consorting with humans and giving birth to demi-gods. Zeus would take human or animal form and physically have intercourse with women. God is different in that the Immaculate Conception is not a physical act, but a spiritual act. Jesus is born out of God himself entering Mary's body without the need for physical intercourse. For Christians that miracle belongs to God alone.

> Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion.

However, only those who follow Abraham's Covenant with God can be Jews. From early on Jews had a sense of heredity. Abraham retains Isaac, the son of Sarah, but expells Ishmail, son of Hagar (Sarah's handmaiden). Jews did not pursue conversion of others because of a sense of uniqueness and heredity, and because throughout their history the Jews fought against invaders from northern Africa, Asia Minor and Europe. Being prosecuted meant that conversion of others was both impractical and potentially dangerous.

The conversion of others into Christianity is something born out of the teachings of Jesus himself, and the miracle of the conversion of Saint Paul. Jesus converts his apostles, and later he apperas to Saul (later called Paul) and converts him through a miracle. Paul's ministry starts with the conversion of the Roman Sergius Paulus. The conversion of others into Christianity comes from Jesus being the savior of humanity. Only those who accept Jesus as their savior can enter His kingdom (i.e. Heaven), thus conversion is necessary in order to be saved.

Jews have no such stimulus for conversion because salvation will come when the Messiah arrives. For Christians Jesus is the Messiah.

Pedro Martínez: Really? Is that statement true?

The only Truth is that truth is in the eye of the beholder.

GTCharlie: That's not the point. The point is that objective truth exists and we have to find that for ourselves. And God is anything but democratic.

There are well-reasoned arguments for believing Christianity is True. That is to say that the information we find in the Bible, and in particular the New Testament, is true. A person is free to accept or reject the claims. That's basically how it works. But TRUTH stands alone and doesn't need anyone's approval or "vote." Truth is that which corresponds to reality. Mankind has no power over it. And since objective truth exists, all other claims to the contrary are by necessity false.

I hear all the talk about the Qur'an and Muslims saying Christ is just a prophet.

http://www.aish.com/atr/a/?category=Messiah%2C+requirements+for

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

***********************************

The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

******************************

Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations."

The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it.

Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven.

Well who decides what is true? Should it be a democratic process? Maybe .. to solve all our disputes.. a democratic vote.. surely God would approve..after all.. we were made in His image.. I wonder what religion or belief would win??

GTCharlie: No, that's not what I said. Your belief and my belief don't matter ultimately. What matters ultimately is what is TRUE.

And it's not intolerance to believe that Christianity is TRUE and other beliefs are false. It's logical to believe that and illogical to believe otherwise (if you are a Christian).

Artful Dodger: so intolerance.. no gray areas.. its either my religion and how I see it or nothing. God loves me and hates you..I was raised Lutheran... no hope.. flesh and blood matters not..kill the unbeliever..wipe them out...God told me to. oh.. and as a reward.. we get their land and natural resources too just a higher form of primate are we?

Übergeek 바둑이: Read the Naked Gospel and you'll know what I believe. Much of what we were taught in our earlier years was due to the cultural of the church at that time. Give em fire and brimstone etc. There are many church teachings that aren't biblical. Tradition sometimes trumps truth. That's why we must do our own digging and like the Bereans, we check the Scriptures for ourselves.

If the Bible is true, than no other "holy book" can be true. The Koran can't be true if the Bible is true and vice versa. You can't have two competing truth claims and accept them both as true.

The Bible is the revealed Word of God. It's his Word to us. If we believe what the Bible says, it's not "our belief" that matters but what matters is the TRUTH of that in which we believe. If I believe in something that isn't true, my belief isn't what matters. What matters is the reality that what I believe isn't in fact true. So what really matters isn't belief, but TRUTH. I don't mean the kind of "truth" that one finds in a post-modern system. Relativism is self refuting and illogical. However, objective truth makes complete logical sense and in spite of fancy arguments to the contrary, we live by a firm adherence to objective truth.

It make little sense that God's Revealed Word would be found in a multitude of way if those differing ways are contradictory. Something cannot be A and non-A at the same time and in the same way. So IF the Bible is God's Word to us, that all other truth claims must be rejected if they contradict the Bible's revealed TRUTH. In the same way, if the Koran is true, then the Bible is false. They can both be false, but they can't both be true.

Artful Dodger:

> I don't think there is just one single reason to believe the Bible to be the Word of God.

The question is: "Is the Bible the ONLY word of God?" Many Christians are offended to even think that anything other than the Bible could also be the word of God. The same is true of Moslems who regard the verses of the Koran as the ONLY word of God.

If I showed somebody a book on modern chemistry, physic or genetics, could they consider that also the word of God? I see science as the new word of God, yet I am probably a heretic for saying that. If God's words are ONLY in ONE book, then God is a limited being, and we just imposed a human limitation on God. If God accepts ONLY MY beliefs, then I just imposed my own human limitations on God. But God, as an infinite being, can only be described in an infinite number of books, and by an infinite number of beliefs.

It is why I see organized religion as wrong. A "spiritual leader" goes and tells people his or her interpretation of God, and reduces God to ONLY that interpretation. Now God became a limited being, conforming to the expectations of the spiritual leader and those who will believe him or her. Intelligent people see beyond pre-digested interpretations of God, but sadly, people don't always act according to their intelligence. Some of the worst terrorists have PhD degrees, having being educated in Oxford or Harvard. In spite of their intelligence, they believe blindly, and so do many intelligent Westerners who think that war against Islam is OK.

> I do however believe that many do blindly follow their political leaders.

Aren't many religious leaders in posession of political and economic power too? I recall some church leaders in the US telling people that they should vote for George W. Bush because if they did not they could go to Hell. Could the United States vote for a man (or woman) if that person said openly "I am an atheist" or "I am a Moslem"? Even now tabloids accuse President Obama of being a Moslem. Intelligent people will see though all this, yet, millions believe what they are told or what they read, without questioning whether it is true or not.

I grew up in a Christian family. As a child I went to two schools, one run by Baptists and another one run by Catholics. all through my childhood I saw pastors and priests tell both children and adults to believe, without really explaining why. And people accepted it, because they were afraid of eternal damnation. I ask myself why it is that I did not learn about how Saint Paul transformed Christianity, or how the four Gospels were probably based on one or two earlier books, or how the New Testament did not exist until 300 years after Christ died. I had to become an adult and apply the scientific method to religion to understand those things. Yet, how many people actually do that? Most people don't even know when the oldest hand-written version of the Bible is, and whether 2,000 years of copying and recopying have changed the text.

It is the word of God and you better believe it or you will go to Hell. Now I removed reasoning and intellect from the equation. Then the believer has become an automaton that never questions. I realize that not everybody is like that, but many religions operate that way, and particularly the extremist religions.

... When Christ said.. "let the dead bury the dead" it gave change to the meaning of what dead is....

Bwild: I actually agree that in some respects, we people are a bit like sheep. Clearly some more than others. And I don't see this as a bad thing. Jesus called the people his sheep. But what he meant (and what I mean) is that they need a Shepherd - someone to watch over them. While some of us take pride in our independent spirits, we are all, at least on some level, sheep.

BTW, while some may believe most anything that's taught in church, that's not true for all. In fact, most people I know (and hang with) are not this way. Sure we believe it if we believe it to be the truth, but we don't simply believe it because some guy in the pulpit said it.

I didn't see Christ rise from the dead but I still can believe that it is true. One does not need to be an eyewitness to believe and event is true. And there are well reasoned arguments that support the belief that Christ rose from the dead. Many people through the ages have believed. Some were former atheists. More than one atheist has researched to prove the resurrection a fraud and came away a believer.

I don't think there is just one single reason to believe the Bible to be the Word of God. While it's true that some learn from childhood to believe, there are many than come to believe the Bible is true when they are much older. It may be true that a child believes blindly, for what do they know of reasoned thinking. But this is not true for adults. And when you have learned men and women coming to faith later in life, that is not something that can be explained away by talk of "blind faith." I may have come to faith somewhat "blindly" but it's not what sustains my faith. While I believe in my heart that the Bible is true, I also believe it in my mind. I'm fully convinced that God exists, that the Bible is His revealed Word for us, and that Jesus is His Son, and that Jesus died and rose from the grave. Such beliefs do not conflict with intellectual thought.

I do however believe that many do blindly follow their political leaders. As for me being hard right, not really. I'm definitely a conservative but I have many moderate views.

And everyone is part of some flock. It's like the group of kids at the highschool who all are in rebellion and claim to be "expressing their individuality" and independence. They are their own "unique" man or woman. And this group of kids, they all look, dress, act - the same. They are a flock of sheep just like the rest. They are worse off because they think they are different. But they are not.

If people are like sheep, NO ONE isn't one. They may like to think of themselves as "not a sheep" but the reality of it is, we are all sheep at some level. And I don't think that is a bad thing. It does depend on what exactly I mean by being a sheep.

Artful Dodger: people are like sheep...they vote rep or dem..they believe most anything their told in church.
you say you go to church,thats fine, but did you see Christ rise from the dead, or do you blindly just believe?
what do you feel is reason enough to believe anything that is written in either the old or new testament?
did you know any of these people,or do you blindly just believe?

in politics...you are hard on the right, yet most everyone in politics are under the influence of "big business",both on the right and the left...so by choosing a side, you become part of the flock.
yes...people are like sheep.

Artful Dodger: Oh yes it is.

GTCharlie: More blood has been spilled with secular philosophies than with religious ideologies. It's silly to talk about religion in these ways. It's painting with too wide a brush. And when people use the word "religion" many mean something different. Without a defining of terms, people can't really be sure what is exactly being claimed.

Übergeek usually has well thought out posts but in this case, he has some problems with logic. He says the root cause of the problem is organized religion but he really hasn't defined what "problem" he's discussing. The burning of the Koran, he seems to be saying, is just a symptom of "the problem." He goes on to say simply that organized religion is this problem. But he then emphasizes the problems that arise when religious claims compete. This explains nothing. Political claims compete too. So what of that?

He states: "I am sorry to say that in most churches (or mosques, sinagogues, temples, etc.) that I have seen, people are herded like sheep, all because that sheep instinct allows them to overcome any doubts they might have about their own beliefs."

This is not an argument. It's an ad hominem. I go to church and I certainly don't get herded like a sheep. I know of no one in mainstream Christianity that behaves this way. We question our leaders, study on our own, and often disagree with minor points. When we disagree with major points, we usually leave that congregation. It happens. Some reasons are good, others not so much. But the point is that people do think for themselves far more than Ubergeek suggests. And referring to people as "sheep" is simply a way to marginalize their intelligence. It's an old trick.

Next Ubergeek over generalizes. It's "most people" this and "most people" that. Sure, he's done a study on this.
" Then most people believe blindly. Most people don't realize that the religion they follow might have been born centuries ago, but its current beliefs might have sprung only in the last 300 years because most current organized religious sects did not exist before the Renaissance and the Enlightenment."

This argument is old and boring.

"Everyone is trying to impose human limitations on an infinite God,"

Everyone? hmmm, well I know of no one in my circle of friends that does that. I've never EVER sat in on any teaching that did this. This is pure nonsense.

" and the belief that a single book can contain EVERYTHING that there is to know about God"

I know of NO ONE that believes this regarding the Bible. It's NOT taught. We know as Believers that what we can know about God is very limited. But that the Bible is HIS revealed word to us and it tells us "something" about the nature of God. But EVERYTHING? We never have believed that.

The rest of Ubergeeks post is an over mischaracterization of what is believed by orthodox Christianity. It's typical uninformed babble and has no useful place in an informed discussion. His last few sentences show rather well his antagonism toward religion in general and his negative view of those who regard FAITH as something real and true.

"And at the root cause of human stupidity sits organized religion and the sheep that follow it. They need their opium and they go and get their dose every weekend."

snobbery at its best

Übergeek 바둑이: " religion.. the opiate of the masses" someone said

Übergeek 바둑이: An excellent post... my God is better than yours..or you're not worshiping God the right way, our way is much better. or God likes us better.. he chose us.. he kinda likes you.. but he chose us because we're better.. organized religion...so much blood spilled over the ages, and still it continues

The Los Angeles Times reports :





But we do know that as of the end of 2009, 41 people inside Obama's very own White House owe the government they're allegedly running a total of $831,055 in back taxes





Why stop there?





In the House of Representatives, 421 people owe a total $6,524,892. In the Senate, 217 owe $2,774,836. In the IRS's parent department, Treasury, 1,204 owe $7,670,814. At the Labor Dept., where Secy. Hilda Solis' husband had some backtax problems before her confirmation, 463 owe $7,481,463. Eighty-one workers for the Federal Reserve System's board of governors owe $1,076,733.

Over at the Justice Department, which is so busy enforcing other laws and suing Arizona, 1,971 employees still owe $14,350,152 in overdue taxes.

Then, we come to the Department of Homeland Security, which is run by Janet Napolitano, the former governor of Arizona who preferred to call terrorist acts "man-caused disasters." Homeland Security is keeping all of us safe by ensuring that a Dutch tourist is onboard every inbound international flight to thwart any would-be bomber with explosives in his underpants.

Within that department, there reside 4,856 people who owe the tax agency a whopping total of $37,012,174.

And they're checking our pockets for metal and coins?



All told, federal employees across the nation owe $1 billion in back taxes. Congressman Jason Chaffetz ( R-Utah) wants all these people fired unless they pay up and stay on the straight and narrow. Sounds like the housecleaning should begin at the top - in the White House where, for once, Barack Obama can show some sense of ethics. Maybe Nancy Pelosi can clean the swamp of scofflaws who take our heard-earned taxpayer dollars but don't follow the rules themselves: who take but who do not give.

I am not sure if I remember the words correctly but There is a phrase: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I know that I am certainly not without sin. I wonder if there is anyone on this earth who is without sin. OH and does any country have any politicians who are without sin?

The real problem is more than just burning Koran's or Bibles. The real root cause of the problem is organized religion. An individual or a small group of individuals is given political power over others on account of their being "spiritual leaders". Then we are surprised when those who lead the religion behave like idiots, zealots or megalomaniacs. I am sorry to say that in most churches (or mosques, sinagogues, temples, etc.) that I have seen, people are herded like sheep, all because that sheep instinct allows them to overcome any doubts they might have about their own beliefs. Then most people believe blindly. Most people don't realize that the religion they follow might have been born centuries ago, but its current beliefs might have sprung only in the last 300 years because most current organized religious sects did not exist before the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.

Everyone is trying to impose human limitations on an infinite God, and the belief that a single book can contain EVERYTHING that there is to know about God is the worst limitation of all. Let us describe God in a book written centuries ago, by people who were not even there when the events happened, in a language other than that of the original creator of the religion. Then let's call that book the ultimate truth and base our organized religion (and political power) around that book. My interpretation of that book is the ultimate truth and if you don't believe it you will go to hell, or worse, I will grab a weapon and kill you. I will call my country a "my-religion country" (like contries in the Middle East call themselves Islamic, or the US calls itself a Christian country, or Israel a country for the Jews). Then if I am really stupid I will kill those who don't fit my country's religion, and if I want to claim some higher moral ground I will "tolerate" those of other religions.

And at the root cause of human stupidity sits organized religion and the sheep that follow it. They need their opium and they go and get their dose every weekend.

Artful Dodger: I thought the old law of "eye for an eye" was ... 'old'.. That being pre occupied with the value of a material thing... which in the end will turn to dust is not really of value in the 'Kingdom of God'.

.. After all.. what is of God cannot be destroyed!!

Artful Dodger: Actually we do in the west.. or at least get others to do it for us. So it has been throughout the cold war that was, and now.. even today in the name of Capitalism and defence of our realms we still torture and kill or supply to those through arms deals the means to which people can and will be killed.

"The freedom to be insensitive to others is part and parcel of freedom of
speech."

But is it the responsible Christian thing to do? Justifying that others are doing it so we might as well is stupid. That in that act of burning the Qur'an soldiers and other lives will be more at risk through those using religion as a means to recruit angry people to fight and kill?

"Cuz they are a peaceful religion."

And since when has Christians not engaged in war, or used the Christian faith as a way of justifying a war, mass murder or genocide??

Muslims burning down Catholic churches in Sudan and Nigeria is commonplace according to African priests who visited my parish this past year. One of the priests said the people had just built themselves a new church, and worshipped in it for a few months before it was leveled. Where is the Vatican's outrage on these horrendous crimes?

So, the issue has nothing to do with whether someone should be allowed to burn a sacred text, but it has everything to do with the group you are offending. If you're Christian, you can forget the powerful elites coming to your aid when your church is trashed or your crucifixes are covered up. Apparently, in present day America, all religions are not equal; as a matter of fact, the scales are tipping toward Mecca.

President Obama when giving a speech at Georgetown University, a Catholic institution, had all images and symbols of Jesus Christ covered so as not to show up in his video frame.

"In coordinating the logistical arrangements for yesterday's event, Georgetown honored the White House staff's request to cover all of the Georgetown University signage and symbols behind Gaston Hall stage," Julie Green Bataille, associate vice president for communications at Georgetown, told CNSNews.com."

In Afghanistan last year, Christian U.S. Army troops engaged in proselytizing the Afghan people by attempting to hand out Bibles written in their native language. The soldiers were stopped, and the copies of the Bible were burned. According to Politico:


Christian Broadcasting's David Brody says "the Bibles were burned because the rules on the base say that all garbage is burned at the end of the day. But just asking here; if the U.S. Military seized a stack full of Korans, would they be burned? You think that might cause a little outrage in the Muslim world?"

So, everyone, please shut up about the Quran-burning religious nuts at that ridiculous church (who at least don't behead or
imprison people of other faiths for not being of their own). The
freedom to be insensitive to others is part and parcel of freedom of
speech. It's no different when talking about building mosques at Ground
Zero; burning American flags; or whatever. Feel free to protest and
even despise what you don't approve of.

Personally, I am far less
offended by their insensitivity than I am by the flag-burning,
America-hating subset of the political left (who believe in free speech
for themselves and their special interests; but not for you if you disagree with them). In fact, they will defend to the death their right to keep you silent.

But, there is nothing more...American... than defending some clueless moron's right to make a complete fool of himself or herself.

Or,
to model himself after one specific clueless leftist moron, perhaps
Terry Jones could just put the Quran in the dirt somewhere and stomp on
it? [link]

PRICELESS

<span>from Dr. Sanity <span>by <span>patsanty@aol.com (Dr. Sanity)

"Job growth between 2000 and 2008 was slower than it had been in any economic expansion since World War II -– slower than it’s been over the last year. The wages and incomes of middle-class families kept falling while the cost of everything from tuition to health care kept on going up. Folks were forced to put more debt on their credit cards and borrow against homes that many couldn’t afford to buy in the first place. And meanwhile, a failure to pay for two wars and two tax cuts for the wealthy helped turn a record surplus into a record deficit"

Bernice:

A clip of Brian Blessed presenting "Have I got news for you!!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgOiiFv9DZ0

Beware.. it is full of satire!!

Bernice: How come? He has in the past

The Col: you can guarantee that AD wouldn't delete his own posts, unlike some I could name but won't because people don't seem to like that.

Artful Dodger: did you get censored or did you delete your posts?

Artful Dodger: ROFl, but you got the wrong face on it hahahahahaha

Bernice: There is in the telling of history and of current events, something called being satirical .. from "satire"

Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.

Blame the BBC and their wonderful programs such as "QI" and "Have I got news for you".. I'd like to also thank C4, ITV.

Heard of Oscar Wilde??

Tuesday: thanks

Tuesday: What's that "let God sort them out" quote? I probably have it wrong

Artful Dodger: Thank you for your opinion

Artful Dodger: thanks for the suggestion,I'm comfortable with what I have posted