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2. Mai 2010, 10:15:01
pedestrian 
Sujet: Re: Most games are begin with same rolling dice numbers..
grenv: We can only speculate about the cause of the problem, since we didn't write the code.

If we are to speculate, one possible hypothesis could be that some unintended event prevents the dice from being generated in the normal way. Whenever this event happens, you get the same dice as the previous roll. When it doesn't happen, you get a random roll. We must assume that this hypothetical event would be something that happens at the second player's first roll - but again, this observation is only useful to someone who has access to the code.

As an aside, if this hypothesis is correct, the event seems to happen in roughly 1 out of 3 games.


2. Mai 2010, 04:07:56
grenv 
Sujet: Re: Most games are begin with same rolling dice numbers..
Thom27: That's a wierd bug... increasing the odds of the second roll equaling the first? What kind of twisted algorithm would cause that?..?..

Unless you wrote code that generated a random number first, then used that to determine whether to roll or just use the first result, ... but why write that sort of code?? It just doesn't seem like a plausible defect.

Any ideas?

1. Mai 2010, 21:39:00
wetware 
Sujet: Re: Most games are begin with same rolling dice numbers..
modifié par wetware (1. Mai 2010, 21:47:11)
Thom27: I agree, and have spent an inordinate amount of time analyzing results here.  (I wish it were easier to do, or that the flaw was ALWAYS evident, or the underlying pattern easier to discern.)  I'll continue playing less and less here, until it's remedied.  (I want to spend more time playing and studying--not investigating an unusual system flaw.)  I'm generally an outspoken skeptic of various "dice cheating" claims, but what's happening here is too much of an outlier to be dismissed cavalierly.

I also tried (unsuccessfully) to identify WHEN this skewness began.  I hoped that by doing so, I might help the powers-that-be to identify some code or procedural change that might have triggered it.

1. Mai 2010, 20:22:10
Thom27 
Sujet: Re: Most games are begin with same rolling dice numbers..
pedestrian: This is well possible, I must only download more files. I'm working on it...

I'm also going to do a chi-square test, which calculates a probability for an event to occur by coincidence, under the assumption that the dice are ok (equally distributed and independent).

1. Mai 2010, 18:45:22
pedestrian 
Sujet: Re: Most games are begin with same rolling dice numbers..
Thom27: That's a great initiative! It seems clear that it is actually a bug and should be repaired as soon as possible. I wonder if it would be possible for your program to analyze a larger sample of games?

1. Mai 2010, 18:28:46
Pedro Martínez 
Sujet: Re: Most games are begin with same rolling dice numbers..
Thom27: “Coincidence.” Fencer, 4 December 2008, 09:33:00 CET

1. Mai 2010, 18:08:55
Thom27 
Sujet: Re: Most games are begin with same rolling dice numbers..
TC: I also had the impression that equality of first and second roll occurs much too often.

(For this topic, see the posts starting 3. Nov. 2009)

To check this, I downloaded the MAT files of all Backgammon games I have played so far, and wrote a programm which counts the games where the first rolls of both players are equal. Result:

206 games total
79 of them have equal first and second rolls (38.3 %)

This is 6.9 times the expected value (5.556 %).

21. Avril 2010, 01:31:20
Nothingness 
Sujet: Re:
Universal Eyes: this happened to me recently here. he 6-6 two in a row to beat me when i was way ahead! i was PEEEVED! i could not believe it.

21. Avril 2010, 00:36:55
playBunny 
Sujet: Fast Hypergammon 2010

18. Avril 2010, 15:55:01
Thom27 
Sujet: Idea for new variant: Randgammon
At the beginning of every game, the initial position is determined randomly. The pieces are set up symmetric like in usual backgammon, i.e. if white has n pieces on point x, then black has n pieces on point 25-x.

Besides from this, there can be various detailed rules to set up the pieces. The following is an example:

There is no blot (single stone on a point). every player has 15 pieces like in normal Backgammon. Every player has at least 2 stones in every quarter of the board. The rearmost stones of a player are not passed by any opponent's stones (i.e. if the white rearmost stones are on point 4, then there are no black on points 1 to 3).

All other rules are the same as in standard Backgammon.

14. Avril 2010, 06:49:23
Universal Eyes 
Sujet: Re:
alanback: There's quit a few that just take the gamble in an even game, that you will not accept a double and forget that the next roll could be double 6's and they could and usually do get counter doubled.
Then there looking at losing 4 instead of sneaking one.

14. Avril 2010, 01:15:02
alanback 
Sujet: Re:
Thad: It does if he has a mathematical chance to win, and it is a very good reason to double. I was speaking of situations where the opponent has no chance to win, but for one reason or another chooses not to resign.

14. Avril 2010, 01:02:50
Thad 
Doesn't doubling when you're ahead and a move or two away from the end of a close game help to keep your opponent from getting a lucky win with doubles, which increases the skill factor in the game and reduce the luck factor?

12. Avril 2010, 22:20:11
alanback 
Sujet: Re:
Nothingness: The entire purpose of the doubling cube is to force the opponent to up the stakes or lose. In a face-to-face game, players will not usually play a game to an end when the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Online, someone has to double or resign to make that happen. Given the pace of play here, some folks like to move things along as quickly as possible.

12. Avril 2010, 09:43:45
joshi tm 
Sujet: Re:
AbigailII: It saved a bit of clicks.
Be aware of your doubles though, because you can score gammon or backgammon. If an opponent is about to be gammoned, it's bad to force double, he rejects and you only recieve 1 point instead of 2.

10. Avril 2010, 20:13:39
AbigailII 
Sujet: Re:
Nothingness: So, you're one move away from checkmate, and you double the stakes. Your opponent resigns instead of accepting the double. Didn't really change the outcome, did it?

10. Avril 2010, 18:58:45
pedestrian 
Sujet: Re:
Nothingness: The point you may be missing is that you only resign the current game, not the entire match. In your example, resigning would mean that you only lead by 4-1 instead of 4-0. Accepting would mean that the current game counts for two.

10. Avril 2010, 18:52:57
Nothingness 
this seems flawed. How can you force a person to either up the stakes or lose..? I'm assuming that this is not an official rule. it would be like being one move away from chekcmate and saying i want to double the match.

10. Avril 2010, 18:32:47
Vikings 
Sujet: Re: Doubling cube.
Nothingness: the short answer is no. they can however force you to choose between resigning or doubling the value of that game, it's your choice but you do have to choose.
At the bottom of the page of this link http://brainking.com/en/GameRules?tp=23 is a more detailed explination

10. Avril 2010, 18:14:43
Nothingness 
Sujet: Doubling cube.
I am unfamiliar with how the doubling cube works. i was in game with a person and i was up 4-0 and during the beginning of the 5th game my opp send a message requesting to double the gmae. i had two options to either accept the double or to resign the game.. can you force a person to resign while using the doubling cube?

6. Avril 2010, 15:38:51
nabla 
Sujet: Re: Every-roll's-a-double-gammon
Pedro Martínez: LOL, I decided not to play any more tournament but that one had me really tempted !

What about a Logik tournament with compulsory random placement (see bug 1487) ? Brainking, the site with Easter-egg game variants.

4. Avril 2010, 21:09:02
playBunny 
Sujet: Re: Every-roll's-a-double-gammon
Pedro Martínez: Awwww!!

4. Avril 2010, 20:48:40
Pedro Martínez 
Sujet: Re: Every-roll's-a-double-gammon
playBunny: I am afraid Fencer has just fixed it. We're playing an unrated game of Fevga with alexlee and I can't do it any more…

4. Avril 2010, 20:44:17
playBunny 
Sujet: Re: Every-roll's-a-double-gammon
Pedro Martínez: Lol. That sounds like fun!

4. Avril 2010, 18:54:04
toedder 
Sujet: Re:
Pedro Martínez: lol, awesome :D

4. Avril 2010, 15:38:46
Pedro Martínez 

28. Mars 2010, 22:21:53
furbster 

18. Mars 2010, 19:41:01
playBunny 
Sujet: Fast Hypergammon 2010

22. Février 2010, 11:54:50
emil negrea 
sal cine vrea sa joace

11. Février 2010, 12:22:45
playBunny 
Sujet: Fast Hypergammon 2010

11. Février 2010, 12:14:54
playBunny 
Sujet: Re: Speaking of long running tournaments ...
Snoopy: A slow coach can block a country road but it takes two of them to block a two-lane highway.

11. Février 2010, 11:49:11
Snoopy 
Sujet: Re: Speaking of long running tournaments ...
alanback: ah yes i got accused of holding that tournament up way back in June 2007
funny how the section i was in finished long long ago..lol

3. Février 2010, 23:06:25
alanback 
Sujet: Speaking of long running tournaments ...
WASSAIL

Wassail started just before Christmas in 2006 with 109 players in 22 sections. There are still 6 unfinished sections in round 1. With a minimum of 26 players advancing to round 2 and a max section size of 5, we are guaranteed at least six sections, meaning that there will be at least 2 sections in round 3 -- with luck round 4 will be the final. I estimate this will finish somewhere around 2020.

18. Janvier 2010, 20:44:15
pgt 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
grenv: Great idea. I have made an appointment with my lawyer and will do the update on Thursday morning.

18. Janvier 2010, 19:40:03
playBunny 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
grenv:

18. Janvier 2010, 18:01:21
alanback 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
The tournaments of the fathers shall be visited upon their children, unto the seventh generation!

18. Janvier 2010, 16:56:11
grenv 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
pgt: There should be a way of passing your current tournaments in your will... could end up having your grandkids finish the tournament for you. Maybe someone not even born yet will play the winning move years from now. :)

18. Janvier 2010, 10:52:24
pgt 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
AbigailII: My last move in this tournament was in March 2006. I am collecting a pension now. In those days I could afford to be a Brain Rook. I might not even be able to afford an internet connection by the time this tournament is over (lucky I have been eliminated already)

18. Janvier 2010, 10:32:07
joshi tm 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
grenv: They have played 120 moves a year, but they are with two, so that makes 240 moves in the games. 48 moves a year is almost one per week, throw in some vacation days and the calculation is correct.


Oh my, it's so ridiculous ;)

4. Janvier 2010, 00:07:30
AbigailII 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
grenv: Oh, it's not just anti-backgammon. That tournament has dozens and dozens of unfinished games, all-most all of them involving one of the players of the game I posted a link to.

3. Janvier 2010, 19:14:15
grenv 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
AbigailII: yeah, and i notice it's also 120 moves, but only one game... glad i didn't enter an anti-bg tournament.

3. Janvier 2010, 12:39:46
AbigailII 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
Czuch: There's also this one. Started a year later (Oct 2006), but it's the first game in a 3 win match.

3. Janvier 2010, 01:27:57
grenv 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
Czuch: they have played about 120 moves in 5 years... that works out to 24 moves a year, which is about a move every 2 weeks... unfathomable - almost impossible given the 7 day limit.. they literally have to almost wait until the last second on every move!

2. Janvier 2010, 23:01:02
wetware 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
playBunny:   Fully deserving of a Super Snail achievement award.

2. Janvier 2010, 20:17:34
playBunny 
Sujet: Re: Holy crap
Czuch: Holy crap! You're not kidding. It's why I didn't join it when it was announced.

2. Janvier 2010, 18:46:57
Czuch 
Sujet: Holy crap
modifié par Czuch (2. Janvier 2010, 18:50:07)
Just noticed this one.....

The first doubling cube tournament

Started in 2005, and still not out of the first round???????

Baked alaska and cardinal.... 5 years for a 7 point doubling cube match???? Really???? Come on guys, that is just plain wrong

15. Décembre 2009, 16:17:38
rod03801 
Sujet: Re: A note to Fevga rules
Jaak: I recently read that rule somewhere as well, and noticed we did not have that here. I just assumed maybe there are more than one version of "Fevga"

I had been curious, because GoldToken just added a game VERY similar to Fevga, but it's called "Moultezim". With that game the tiny difference between it and what we have here is that you can not fill more than 4 pips in your opponent's starting area. (Fevga is 5 pieces in your own starting area) PLUS it had the rule you mention, for Fevga.

15. Décembre 2009, 15:00:23
Jaak 
Sujet: A note to Fevga rules
Look the position Fevga (Jaak vs. AlterMann) , please!
All black checkers are blocked, but they are not collected onto the one point behind player's prime. Thus BrainKing Fevga rules http://brainking.com/en/GameRules?tp=111 don´t require to unblock a point in the prime to allow the opponent a chance to move. I used this possibility and moved
41. 18-23, 18-23, 17-22, 19-24
Backgammon Galore has the same rules http://www.bkgm.com/variants/Fevga.html but there is a reference of George Savdar http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+1202 that there are many different variations in Greece.
The main variation has a rule:
If you have a 6-prime and the opponent can't move at any dice (for example has all his checkers behind this prime (not the only case), you MUST free one point in your turn in order the opponent to have non-zero probability to move.
So, according to this rule I did an illegale move. Where is the truth?

10. Décembre 2009, 18:11:38
playBunny 
Sujet: Re: Fast Hypergammon 2010
Carl, AlliumCepa: That's wierd. I copied the links directly from the tournaments page. I've changed them from absolute urls to relative ones. It should be fine now. Thanks, guys. :-)

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