Artful Dodger: Sorry Dan, but from what I've read about the system of collecting data in the USA regarding viewers.. it's a little vague.

Only 5000 TV sets in the USA are used to calculate the viewing statistics for the whole country, the system also can count a program as being watched even if it is only watched for ten minutes or less. It can also count two programs watched within an hour period as being watched based on that 'ten minute slot'.

It is calculated that there are 99,000,000 households in the US that have TV sets, going back to my days of studying statistics in college I feel the sample of only 5000 viewers too small to be " clear and precise".

Also, It seems from looking at the system of knowing who is watching is dependant on pressing a button, which is acknowledge as not being always done by the data collectors.

... Call me fickle, but to me this is not good realiable statistics. It may be good enough to calculate how much to charge for advertising, but overall I would not call the data collection system accurate or "clear and precise".

Jack: That would be wrong. In the end the people that will suffer from Murdoch's games will be the staff. Just like with the NOTW paper.

Ok... like with the NOTW, there is a level at which those can be held complacent. Such as the editors.. but should the normal Joes who are just working be punished..... no.

Imho.

Artful Dodger: The people being asked at various inquiries all say the Murdoch's knew about the phone hacking. I think the US law people are waiting for the results of our law system.

"Fox is still number one."

By the counting system I've heard that is aimed at advertising.. yes. In actual... no.
The system used for counting is a little strange.

The 9/11 phone hacking investigation: it's Murdoch and Fox News who could be destroyed, not the Republicans

The News Corp phone-hacking scandal has gone global. The FBI has announced that it is launching an investigation into allegations that Rupert Murdoch’s corporation hacked into the mobile phones of 9/11 victims. If it’s true, it’s a moral outrage of huge proportions – a terrible insult to American honour. It would seriously damage Murdoch’s reputation in the US and reduce his very profitable share of the media market. But the
political context is subtly different to the UK scandal, and that will shape the way it plays out. The comparison some are already making to Watergate is instructive in its inaccuracy. This hurts Murdoch, but not necessarily the Republican Party or conservative media in general.

Hacking into Milly Dowler’s phone was an attack on a single family. Hacking into the phones of the 9/11 victims is an assault on an entire nation. In America, the memory of the people who died on 9/11 is sacred.
The invasion of their privacy not only violates wire-tapping laws but offends a much bigger, popular ethical sensibility. If it is proven true then the Murdoch brand will be irreparably harmed, and that means the collapse of an empire that reaches well beyond a seedy UK newspaper obsessed with sex and celebrity face lifts.....

....For starters, Democratic Senators Frank Lautenberg and Barbara Boxer
have called for Murdoch to be personally investigated under the terms of
the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act for the crime of bribing English
police. If found guilty, the old man could face up to $30 million in
fines and 20 years in prison....

.....In contrast, no Democrat would bother to court the support of Fox News or the New York Post. They are conservative niche media, which has excluded them from half of the US political establishment and kept them philosophically pure. And just because it fills a Right-wing niche doesn’t mean News Corp has determined the ebb and flow of conservative politics either. The Sun’s claim that it “won it” in 1992 is a sentiment that no US news outlet would understand or echo. They regard themselves as either strictly non-partisan or, in the case of Fox, something that reflects rather than sets the popular mood.

In short, there is a distance between News Corp and the Republican Party that will keep the scandal from becoming the partisan frenzy that it was in the UK. Whatever Obama's claims to the contrary, Fox does not
speak for the GOP and would never claim that kind of influence. It is a case of a private institution committing crimes against the general public; the UK's added dimension of political culpability is missing. This is not a conservative scandal, or even a political scandal. It is simply criminal.

Artful Dodger: It already has brought him down.

Do you think a child being murdered a little event?
..Do you think hacking the phone of that child causing the parents to think she was still alive a little event?

... Do you think that hacking interfering with the police investigation into that child's disappearance a little event?

Do you?

Jack: You'll need a serious event like the Phone hacking in the UK to make that happen. Something that'll make even those who kiss up to Murdoch want to distance themselves.

... Kinda like with Glenn Beck and the advertisers but bigger.

If it turns out "The Sun" is just as screwed and corrupt in it's abuse of standards as "NOTW", then there might be a call for News Corp to be booted out of the News industry.

Artful Dodger: I think it's you more.

Milly Dowler, one name that caused the closure of NOWT paper. Why.. because the paper had people hack the murdered girls phone before she was known to be dead. They listened to the messages left by the parents and then deleted them, causing the parents to still think she was alive. The paper also had hacked the phones of deceased British soldiers and their relatives, and victims of the 7/7 London bombings.

The News group has had to pay out millions in compensation to individuals.

This event and more has exposed that Murdoch used his papers as a way to manipulate politicians. If they were not his friends, they were subject to mud slinging throughout Murdoch's press. That the police knew and were manipulated again by Murdoch's companies through bribery.

Most people in the UK are disgusted by the activities of News Corp.

Hence this by Murdoch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rupert-Murdoch-ad-001.jpeg

Jack: The rules are that UK politicians are not allowed to take gifts.... .... Yet we all know at some level it does happen. But if caught 'red handed' .. then you will be held accountable for your actions.

We know from recent news that political parties have made deals with the likes of Murdoch to get good press. N' we can extrapolate from certain cases (such as the building companies price fixing scandal) that public officials are somehow turning a big blind eye to blatant fraud.

So it happens... but not legally.

Artful Dodger: Not unless my maths is 5 years out

"And we both know politics is mud slinging. which is why the Repubs can't seem to find a decent candidate to run against Obama."

I thought that was a just a left wing attribute.

"As for Newt, you're stating old news and apparently it's not enough to keep him from running for office."

True, it doesn't. But it reminds me of an argument in the UK over directors who have businesses closed down for fraud, etc. They then go and open up elsewhere, just change their position. How certain disgraced UK politicians/advisers just fade for a while then turn up elsewhere in the world of government.

"it's old news and that Turk is a Jerk and his blather won't work"

Turk picks up on stuff just like everyone else does.

"And if you have something more current, with a reliable data source."

What like Murdoch run Fox, who's empire is now facing in the UK more scrutiny over the "The Sun" paper and it's bribing of police for information.

... But this is a matter that dates back over ten years!! Should it be ignored, counted as dated?? Or just noted that it has just been exposed, just like NOTW caught intercepting and then deleting the messages of a murdered girl... That caused Murdoch to close down the NOTW last year

... Something that they tried to bury under the rug due, as it exposes police corruption and politician a*** kissing of Rupert Murdoch's butt!!

Artful Dodger: It was in the news when he first did it...

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/01/25/Group-seeks-info-on-Gingrich-ethics-probe/UPI-56641327539926/

WASHINGTON, Jan. 25 (UPI) -- A government watchdog group Wednesday requested the release of all documents in the 1990s ethics investigation into U.S. House Speaker Newt Gingrich, R-Ga.

Melanie Sloan, executive director of Citizens for Ethics and Responsibility in Washington, said all information should be made public so voters can decide for themselves if Gingrich was let off too lightly, The Hill reported. The group filed a request under the Freedom of Information Act.

In 1997 a House ethics panel's investigated allegations Gingrich improperly used a college course, funded by political donors, to promote political causes, potentially violating federal tax laws and House ethics rules. The House voted 395-28 to adopt the committee's report that recommended reprimanding Gingrich and imposing a $300,000 penalty.

....
....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/govt/leadership/stories/012297.htm
House Reprimands, Penalizes Speaker

By John E. Yang
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 22 1997; Page A01

The House voted overwhelmingly yesterday to reprimand House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) and order him to pay an unprecedented $300,000 penalty, the first time in the House's 208-year history it has disciplined a speaker for ethical wrongdoing.

The ethics case and its resolution leave Gingrich with little leeway for future personal controversies, House Republicans said. Exactly one month before yesterday's vote, Gingrich admitted that he brought discredit to the House and broke its rules by failing to ensure that financing for two projects would not violate federal tax law and by giving the House ethics committee false information.

"Newt has done some things that have embarrassed House Republicans and embarrassed the House," said Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.). "If [the voters] see more of that, they will question our judgment." .........

.....The 395 to 28 vote closes a tumultuous chapter that began Sept. 7, 1994, when former representative Ben Jones (D-Ga.), then running against Gingrich, filed an ethics complaint against the then-GOP whip. The complaint took on greater significance when the Republicans took control of the House for the first time in four decades, propelling Gingrich into the speaker's chair.

With so much at stake for each side -- the survival of the GOP's speaker and the Democrats' hopes of regaining control of the House -- partisanship strained the ethics process nearly to the breaking point.

All but two of the votes against the punishment were cast by Republicans, including Rep. Roscoe G. Bartlett (Md.), many of whom said they believed the sanction -- especially the financial penalty -- was too severe.

....
....

"Fifteen Years Ago Today, Newt Gingrich Became The First House Speaker In American History To Be Reprimanded By His Colleagues"

Today is the South Carolina GOP presidential primary and, as this Mitt Romney campaign reminds us, another special date, too:

Happy 15th Anniversary, Mr. Speaker
The House Voted “Overwhelmingly” to Reprimand Gingrich and Ordered Him to Pay a $300,000 Penalty After He Violated House Rules and Misled Ethics Investigators:

On January 21, 1997, Gingrich Became The Only Speaker In History To Be Formally Reprimanded By The House For “Ethical Wrongdoing.” “The House voted overwhelmingly yesterday to reprimand House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) and order him to pay an unprecedented $300,000 penalty, the first time in the House's 208-year history it has disciplined a speaker for ethical wrongdoing. … Exactly one month before yesterday's vote, Gingrich admitted that he brought discredit to the House and broke its rules by failing to ensure that financing for two projects would not violate federal tax law and by giving the House ethics committee false information.” (“House Reprimands, Penalizes Speaker,” The Washington Post, 1/22/97)

The House Voted 395-28 To Reprimand Speaker Gingrich – With Roughly Nine In Ten House Republicans Voting Against Gingrich. (H.Res. 31, Vote #8: Passed 395-28: R 196-26; D 198-2; I 1-0, 1/21/97)

And now the Newt has been caught again..
http://bungalowbillscw.blogspot.com/2012/01/gingrich-thinks-romneys-tax-returns-are.html

I guess tax fraud is not big press in the right wing press now, even though I find it reported everywhere but....

" “It appears that he is not paying his fair share of Medicare tax,’’ Robert E. McKenzie, a partner in the Chicago law firm of Arnstein & Lehr LLP concluded, in an email to Forbes, after reviewing Gingrich’s 2010 tax return. McKenzie, a past chairman of the Employment Tax Committee of the American Bar Association Tax Section and a member of the IRS’ Advisory Council, added: “There are a multitude of cases where the IRS has successfully challenged the improper tax strategy of this candidate and his accountants. Service businesses are only allowed to distribute a fair return on investment from an S corp. as profits exempt from Medicare taxes. The remainder of profits must be paid as salary subject to a 2.9% Medicare tax levy.”

As Forbes notes, the IRS has specific rules on how payments from a small business like Gingrich Holdings should be treated for tax purposes, and the amount Gingrich says he invested in his companies — between $500,000 and $1 million — is likely “far too little” to “justify booking $2.4 million as profit.” The ploy, however, is used widely. According to the Government Accountability Office, S corps. like Gingrich Holdings underpaid wages by $24 billion in 2003 and 2004, allowing owners to avoid payroll taxes.

Gingrich’s dodge of Medicare taxes, though, pales in comparison to the tax break he’d give himself should he get to the White House. His tax reform plan calls for a flat 15 percent tax rate, slashing his effective rate to 14.6 percent and giving himself a $540,000 tax break in the process."

http://www.nationofchange.org/gingrich-used-gimmick-avoid-paying-taxes-millions-income-1327424546

Artful Dodger: Regardless of who he is, you know he is right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJCfESavCn8&feature=relmfu

Ten years of fighting to close loopholes and no closure?

Why?

The UK government willing in the current situation to write off £25,000,000,000 in tax fraud?

Why?

We see the headlines all full of wage freezes, loss of support for those who need help in the community, benefit fraud costing the UK £1,000,000,000.

... but little on the £25,000,000,000.

Is that because the majority of the UK press is right wing owned, ie in bed with the businesses??

Übergeek 바둑이: Not children, that level even though it does happen is illegal and one actual problem that gets the various law bodies around the world to work as a team.

The considerable problem with porn is the same as boxing. Drive it underground by making it illegal will just make things worse. At least now the 'actors' are protected and they have to have regular check ups for SDI's.

"As usual, it is all about money."

Mostly.

"will they also pass laws that ban violence and pornography in the Internet?"

Pointless to try. There are vast areas of the net that are impossible to regulate.

"It is illegal to copy a game where people get beheaded or blown up, but it is legal to make such a game."

But then isn't it upto the parents to make the young aware of the difference between fiction and reality? Most people are aware of this difference.

Jack: It's EU legislation regarding intellectual property. It's not law yet and may never be. most attempts by the industry to directly interfere with internet have failed and found to be illegal.

.... Perfect example ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXqLwiy2adU&feature=related


Who in the Republican party support base is for tax fraud by the rich and your representatives?

Jack: The new enforcement systems were stupid. They were already useless and would have made no difference to the problem. The only people in the end that would benefit would be the lawyers.

"Our ruling bodies have become so deep in conflicts of interest and insider trading they are no longer able to function as a body that supports the public will or the public good."

Last night on "Question time", I watched as the question of whether the UK government would block the bonus to be paid to the RBS boss (which the UK owns 5/6's of) at the shareholders meeting. His Salary is £1,200,000.... the bonus is £932,000. We were told no bouses would be paid till the bank was back in the 'black'. If the UK government lets him get the bonus, I can see more demonstrations and an increased possibility of social unrest.

... Last December our UK gov wrote off £25,000,000,000 known to have been lost in tax fraud...

"since Reagan all presidents regardless of party have continued on his path to destruction."

Because the US political system is a joke from too many politicians at all levels being quite happy to take bribes from lobbyists.

"It was hard to believe people do not know about WWII and what created it but now it is easy as I watch my fellow citizens continue to cheer on their own destruction."

With so much home ed based on people not wanting their children to learn certain aspects of why we got here and other matters of life. With certain liberties that allow neo Nazism (probably as many German immigrants actually supported the Nazi's in WWII) .... I ain't suprised, just a little shocked the figures were over 30%

"Not so long ago our schools taught civics as a mandatory subject but today civic classes are unheard of unless people study political science in college and then they are getting a healthy does of fake history."

Not as bad as when I was a kid, we did have one savvy teacher though who taught economics.... it was more of that in the books, some details were missing.. like the reason for the Cuban revolution was greedy American corporations turning Cuba into a virtual new 'slave' labour force.

"Since corporations bought up all the media outlets their is no more news just the version that pays the highest profits. I find foreign news services more reliable than our own media outlets."

The Guardian and Independent are recognised as being the only unbiased papers in the UK where real news is still accessible. The rest is basically right wing fear merchants. And thanks to digital and the internet we can finally question what we are told to fear.

.. Unless we are taught not to question and punishment for such was hellish

Bwild: It's not that the rich are rich. It's the difference in the scales of pay that has widened over the last few decades.

That the CEO's now earn 260 times+ the wage of the average earner (in the USA) compared to in 1965 when it was 26 times, and that the Church support them because of the donations they make. Often, not as much as declared on tax returns.

Bernice: Particulary funny as that video was made pre party switch over. Ironically now Republicans should be substituted for Democrats.

And after hearing some polls and studies as reported by Bill Maher...

... How can people not know who the allies fought against in WWII?

Jack: Since the 80's and Raygun started getting 'religion' ingrained in the election process. Yes.

It seems now a battle of who's the better Christian and therefore negates the separation of state and church. That churches are now being used as pulpits for political parties using that old tool fear.

"I just wish Free Europe would stand up to American corporate war profiteering and stop supporting it."

I wish that fines and consequences of white collar crime were as tough as for those who commit speeding and based on the amount. But with the lobbying that goes on.... or not if our politicians are to be believed!!

Jack: Yes... mostly very good and rightfully there. I did (when in place) disagree with the law that disallowed copying of bought content to preserve the original or to allow playing on another media, such as in the old days vinyl to tape for ya walkman.

The only thing that to a degree is stopping alot of people going legit is price even through just watching it via a purely digital medium.

Now, not so much as the industry has listened to Joe public, yet in the pre digital age it was strange that in the UK we paid £10 for the same item that cost in the USA $10 (at the time £5)

... or as (don't know now) that it was cheaper for a person who worked on cruise ships to buy an item in the USA, pay the import duty and get it converted to 240V.

Jack: I hope so, rather strange that they target the sites rather than the companies advertising on them. I would have thought if they really wanted to stop file sharing, they would approach the problem from all levels.

But.. I guess going after companies is so hard for the USA as they seem to be protected by the constitution and lobbyists of said country.

Wikipedia..... Close down or fine the advertisers?

yoyudax: Yes. This is a war, while you may not agree with it, the guys who are dead were actively engaged in said war.

The standard of military rules established is respect for the combatant dead. They are dead, they cannot shoot, kill, bomb or otherwise pursue the death of anyone else.

Also this act now it has gone viral, is likely to cause a spike in recruitment in enemy combatants..... ie more people attempting to shoot/kill troops active in Afghanistan. So in essence, those four soldiers have contributed to the deaths of their own.

"We should be looking rather at a society that breeds these types of men"

... limited employment prospects, Salusa Secundus style harshness and savage use of country/faith without question.. or that they are kids?

Übergeek 바둑이: I have to agree with you, our legal systems have been inadequate. Especially when influenced by politicians and agencies wishing to hide their dirty laundry, or use legal jargon that has no real reality bar making justification morally easier for the voting public to digest.

Yet I've noticed over the last decade or so that hiding has become much harder. The reporting and investigation done, even with the various biases revealing much by how they write.

.. and even with the likes of Murdoch and other right wing news outlets, we still have some independent journalistic outlets.

So, while I don't trust our legal systems, I know it is being watched. And I do trust our deep down humanity.

Übergeek 바둑이: I think it's more a case of the psychology of someone who kills easily, any elite force is going to have a high degree of this small percentage of humanity (something like only 3-4%) .... and that within this small percentage you are going to have a few some real morons with no respect.

They'll be caught and made an example of. Of course the name of the person filming and uploading it will come out. Then it becomes a matter of how much of a sheep they were.

Artful Dodger: You would have thought knowing what could happen to them if caught, they would've not wanted it videoed. Just as the UK intelligence service is now facing investigation on handing over people to the former Gaddafi regime knowing they would be tortured.

The records found by the rebels are rather incriminating

Heads will hopefully roll on both sides of the pond.

So what exactly did those Marines pissing on corpses help to achieve by their "golden showers"?

Übergeek 바둑이: And this needs to take 6 months!!

Guess it's the politicians and the PR firms who are profiting, not the people. All that money would do wonders helping build community projects

..... I don't get why the states vote on who gets to be the leader of the opposition. Isn't that something the party should decide?

Well the new supreme leader looks ... ... in control.

... Those hats remind me of ..

Übergeek 바둑이: I don't..

"However, when the war in Iraq started he completely abandoned his left-wing politics in favour of right wing ideology."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUixaVH8DVY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj6WechLhw&

I don't think so. I think he was not of one ideology.

Artful Dodger: Hitchens was a journalist, Dawkins is a scientist. Hitchens can be just as blunt but by trade he is more of a wordsmith. He hated religion after 9/11. This display of "tribalism" is just as present according to him in any major monotheistic religion.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA55jGyq2C8&

Bernice: The Dead Man disowned one of his sons because he wanted to goto Tokyo's Disneyland. Another he disowned because he was to feminine.... "no good because he is like a little girl".

Which left him one son to name as the new King.. sorry, great Leader!

Artful Dodger: In which way? The Atheism or the anti religion passion he had?

Artful Dodger: The news about the Higgs Boson ..... Plus I think Richard Dawkins fills some of the guys boots.

Aye.. he had no room for intellectual dishonesty. The Ol' journalist streak in him.

Artful Dodger: It's more of a case of what is considered liberal to the US version of the idea. Our PM (conservative) is in full support of the NHS, as are about 99.99 of politicians. Considering some of the reasons for setting up the NHS and other social systems, it would be considered an insult to many who have served or contributed towards the victory of both world wars. As well as several dozen nails in the coffin for any major UK political party to announce it wants to disband it. UK history lessons teach of the poor houses, the deaths before we got social systems and the NHS.

Plus even the likes of the CBI acknowledge the health of the working population is a asset to businesses.

.. the usual argument in the end comes to how to run things.

As to progressive.. the most would in my mind be the SNP, as they won the right for Scotland to rule itself rather than London. But that is the same as being a State in the USA.

But.. I have to say the word progressive has different meanings. Technically there is no UK equivalent to the US. Your whole political system in some forms is alien to the UK.

eg.. unending tv commercials come elections is not allowed. Sure politicians can get on tv shows or be interviewed, but that is upto the TV stations. Lobbying like in the USA is illegal in the UK. Anybody caught red handed (but not slightly pink handed) is gone, possibly even made an example of... ie not allowed to resign and sacked or even actually facing criminal charges.

... I say "even" after the expenses scandal. Too many MP's would have been sacked if they hadn't been allowed to hand back their expenses money. I also wonder why all those big national building companies were not all in court, rather than the few out of 500+ caught fixing bid prices and other fraud, which cost the public and private sector.

Übergeek 바둑이: Of course they are a relative term. A BNP party member considers the Conservatives a leftist group. The Communists consider the Labour party a right wing group.

I mean.. how does Sinn Féin position in political terms the Ulster Unionist Party. Former foes in Northern Ireland's long war!

Artful Dodger: ...For a start we do not just have two parties, here is a list of all those with a MP or Lord at the mo....

Labour Party
Conservative Party
Liberal Democrat
Scottish National Party (SNP)
Plaid Cymru - the Party of Wales
Democratic Unionist Party (DUP)
Sinn Féin
Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP)
Ulster Unionist Party (UUP)
Respect
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
Independent Labour
Independent Conservative

More so, even within a party there can be a big difference in views on some items. There is no 'tea party' or be a better 'ideology' except of the 'fars' of movements whether left right or central.

Artful Dodger: Piers Morgan is considered a conservative here in the UK. He certainly had no qualms about working for Murdoch as the editor for the NOTW in the past... can't get any righter than working for Murdoch.

If you are talking about his interviewing style with politicians.... He's an English conservative, not an American one. The difference is bigger than the Atlantic ocean!!

Artful Dodger: Damn!! Does that mean he'll be coming back and doing UK TV soon... ... again!

His 'interviews' over here (on ITV) were too choreographed, quite the opposite from his days with NOTW where justified going after celebs lock, stock and two smoking barrels!!

Übergeek 바둑이: They are relying on their viewers not to know the difference.

eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MjRV-UTs9o

Artful Dodger: Formal logic.... excluding a middle ground... .... yes, I understand the idea, but as having dealt with logic on a formal training ground in the likes of the ultimate logic devices, computers.


.... I find that it's not logical.

A computer uses 01, yet from that it must to operate, be capable of and/or gates as well as yes/no.

Then after reading up I have to ask, are you talking about the Aristotle version or Begriffsschrift?

Artful Dodger: Yes... As they do on the BBC. Many once hardened lefties or righties, but softer now on a channel they use to fight with.

Interesting fact that!!

Artful Dodger: Seems there are several languages or varieties of that.

Artful Dodger: "

PROPER to pay them as they are regulars"....

Ships biscuits were trice baked. Very hard after that, but add gravy...

Logic is abused and often chemical biological truths are mixed in to cause a move from binary to at least a trinary system. That languages keep on changing, and you've always got a chance of a ghost in the machine.

.. Especially back when I was at college when punch cards were used to program the mainframe, as we did back then before PC's!!

Artful Dodger: wow.. they really opposed... ... ... hard!!

I guess if they did their Fox paychecks would stop!! eheheheheh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl6ekkvWnOE


4 in this link to the fox news article.

Artful Dodger: That's an excuse you keep using. But when many commentators on Fox say similar things about Liberals, socialism and communism at every opportunity...

It's more then one!!

Artful Dodger: I said TV preachers... Please stop trying to change the context. ;P

And on the ones we see in the UK, alot of them are promising that God and Jesus will help them with their financial problems.

Artful Dodger: The original post I did was about Muppets and Fox. We can go back to that and who killed Kenny if you wish!!