(V): i was just amazed to read that doctors surgeons and blood travel with him


the fact that MP,s have claimed way over the top has been going on for years
i remember the last recession when the PM was calling for wage restraint and they voted themselves a wage increase way above anything normal ppl where allowed

dosnt matter which party you support they all out for themselves

Snoopy: Basically yes. And I think you need to be more concerned over how our MP's last year claimed nearly £100 million pounds in expenses... over £130,000 per MP on average!!!!

Some have claimed that is because their wages are to low.

or maybe not
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7973274.stm


did all previous presidents have this?

Artful Dodger: More honesty in Government, and hopefully certain agencies in the USA finally reigned in. And to see if your government is being controlled by others directly and indirectly.

Czuch: Sorry.. I'll remember to use the word lied to. It's more accurate in this case, We were told that Saddam could attack UK bases in 45 minutes.... that was a lie.

.... A deliberate one.

(V): revealed that certain elements of what we were told before going into Iraq were false


Finally, first time I remember that you didnt use the word "lied".... there is always false information, all the time, everywhere, but it is a huge leap to accuse of lies and conspiracies.

Artful Dodger: Early morning guff??

Seriously though... It would be nice for a full investigation to take place. Just to put minds at rest.... or at least by close observation of those giving evidence to see if the wool has been tried to be pulled over our eyes.

Some small investigations have taken place over here, and revealed that certain elements of what we were told before going into Iraq were false. Unfortunately it wasn't in the enquiries remit to go deeper.

ScarletRose:

ScarletRose:

Artful Dodger: It's Zanes diaper! LOL Whew!

Bernice:  It's one thing to make a claim with evidence, it's another thing to make a claim with no evidence and tell others to wake up and smell the coffee.  Something smells alright and it isn't the coffee. 

Artful Dodger: I thought he was talking crap, but thanks for the heads-up ROFLMBO

If you put in 9/11 conspiracy crap into google, you get a bunch of hits.  I'll bet they all heard the story about Alex's quote! 

More evidence!

GoodTimeCharlie:
  I still can't verify that quote made by Alex Jones but I can't stand him so I stand by the accuracy of the quote. 

You guys are worse than me

Vikings:It was but on that day they switched jobs so I'm sure the story is correct. 

Artful Dodger: I heard that it was the dishwasher telling the busboy, therefore, your post is irrelevant and thus, invalid

I stand by the accuracy of that quote.

Alex Jones is quoted as saying: "I don't really believe in that 9/11 conspiracy crap.  It's all hype by a bunch of know nothing morons.  But there is no money in following the truth but plenty of money can be made by jumping on the conspiracy band wagon.  Some people will believe a lie before they will believe the truth."

The anonymous source for this information claims to be quoting another anonymous source who overheard his mother telling a friend she overhead the owner of a restaurant telling the cook that the waitress overhead the busboy telling the dishwasher that another waitress overhead Alex Jones tell say all this to a female companion while visiting the restaurant for breakfast.  The anonomous waitress, the one who overheard Alex's confession, quickly wrote down on a napkin what she heard and the owner found the napkin and asked the anonmous waitress about it.  The owner of the restaurant, who will remain anomous, is well known for his pancakes and honesty.  To this day, Alex Jones hasn't denied the quote. 

Czuch: ...... So you get it now. And I think it does sound like some systems in place today in the western world. IE as in the USA your local state and county governments, and in the UK our local councils, who are given the ability to raise money from locals and get some dosh from the Government to use as they feel fit to meet the needs of the people living in their area.

It's not true socialism, but it's closer then the old USSR model.

I've enjoyed posting & debating here over the past couple of months. It has been profitable to myself, if to no one else. I've made real progress in my understanding of many things. I thank everyone who has either defended me or opposed me, on whatever occasion & regarding whatever issue.

I have a focus now and I intend to pursue it. My time is limited and I have a lot to do, so I will post here only rarely, if at all, in the foreseeable future. Thanks again to those who engaged with me in discussion of these interesting & important issues. Best wishes to all.

Artful Dodger: when I read what you found about "anybody can post" and "anonymous" any credibility in Greg and his "links"went out the window with the smoke from his smelly pipe

Bernice:WEll, I'm going back to just moderating the board for a while.  I'm not going to go to all the trouble of checking out a story, discovering the source is an anonymous one, and that anyone can post at the originating site, only to be told the story with no evidence is accurate.  Way past reasonable. 

The Usurper:You mean you stand by the questionable accuracy of a report based on your preconceived notions.  And, in spite of the fact that there is NO EVIDENCE, you accept the story as true.   There's goes your credibility with me. 

The Usurper: are you sure that is what you are seeking.....or is it just something more to ram down our throats??

It appears that you arent impressed with AD's "unknown contributor" hahahaha.....AKA as "anonymous"

Im glad someone has the time to try and correct you in your assumptions, most of which are gobbledy gook and written by who? people of no importance at all......Gimme AD's facts anytime.

and fancy ignoring Czuch....bit rude arent you?

Czuch:

ever feel like you are being ignored??


hahah, only when I have a valid point

The Usurper:The point is, you were totally wrong about attributing that quote to Bush.  Take your medicine and stop the dance around. 

(V): "The Conservative party over here has promised (or so their leader has.... that if the Conservatives get into power they will open up and publish all the UK secret UFO info."

If only these parties would actually deliver on their promises. lol Alas, the con game continues.... though hopefully a greater percentage of people are waking up....

GoodTimeCharlie: "I just don't want others trying to cram it down my throat"

Actually, I was responding in good faith to questions you asked, as it turns out, in bad faith. You are welcome to ignore everything I post. I'm not holding you down & forcing your mouth open.

Artful Dodger: "Of course, I'll just stick to the right wing nut's websites. Think I'll find anything there?"

Try Jack Blood, Alex Jones (PrisonPlanet & InfoWars), G. Edward Griffin (FreedomForce), etc. These people are Libertarians. Or try reading some Ron Paul stuff. :o)

But you're right, the Neo-Con websites will have a different view. But while they will improperly defend a Fascist like Bush, they will also properly accuse, say, Rhodesian socialists like Clinton or Obama, which accusations the liberals will reject.

We go 'round in circles...and only the few will escape the Matrix. Most take the blue pill and go back to sleep, annoyed at being stirred from their slumber in the first place.

GoodTimeCharlie:"cram it down my throat"

exactly.  I do have a brain and can think for myself.  I'm not easily fooled and when someone tells me what to think, that is a red flag in my book!

The Usurper:Ok, let's assume he didn't say it, for the sake of argument.

We have to assume he didn't say it, there's no evidence he did. 

The question then is, does Bush in fact despise the Constitution?

Well, you'd have to make a conclusion based upon some evidence and you'd have to make a subjective judgment.

Did his actions while in office provide overwhelming evidence of that?

No.  You will say yes but overwhelming?  Prove it to me. 

Did he undermine the Constitution, oversee the gutting of its Bill of Rights, and otherwise act as if he were not bound by it, in true dictatorial style?

Again, you are assuming the very thing you are trying to prove.  Question begging. 

So whether he said these words in actuality is not very relevant.

You are absolutely 100% wrong here.  It fully matters.  The very issue under question right now is the quote! 

I think he probably did, but then I wasn't there.

Who cares what you think?  That's certainly not proof of anything!  I think he probably didn't!  There.  Now I've balanced out your opinion so we're back to zero. 

What he DID, however, is very relevant.

What he DID is an entirely different question.  I'm ONLY responding to the quote you claim is his.  You have NO PROOF.  No proof but yet you still believe an anonymous source.  You just went down a few notches on my respect meter.    Now I know that you'll believe something is true even if there is no evidence for it.

I expect now you'll want a list of things he did to undermine the Constitution, with links to supporting evidence, etc.

Of course.  And since you're the one making the claim, it's on you.

But really, so much information is out there, the evidence is so complete, that if you don't recognize it already, nothing I could post could change your mind.

Well, all I have to do is go to some left wing loon's website and I can find all the "evidence" I need.  Of course, I'll just stick to the right wing nut's websites.  Think I'll find anything there?

and I never said I was "enlightened", I just don't want others trying to cram it down my throat

The Usurper: Now,now, let's not be petty

Artful Dodger: You guys are having a field day with this one. lol

Ok, let's assume he didn't say it, for the sake of argument. But you said this:

"My criticism must be true or based on truth."

True. The question then is, does Bush in fact despise the Constitution? Did his actions while in office provide overwhelming evidence of that? Did he undermine the Constitution, oversee the gutting of its Bill of Rights, and otherwise act as if he were not bound by it, in true dictatorial style?

Yes, he did. So whether he said these words in actuality is not very relevant. I think he probably did, but then I wasn't there. And they are only words, after all. What he DID, however, is very relevant.

I expect now you'll want a list of things he did to undermine the Constitution, with links to supporting evidence, etc.

But really, so much information is out there, the evidence is so complete, that if you don't recognize it already, nothing I could post could change your mind.

Like Charlie the good time guy, or whatever he calls himself now, he already is enlightened. Why trouble him further? :o)

Czuch:  Exactly.  It's like saying, "The only facts I have are in this fake document." 

The Usurper: The only facts I have is the report itself.


like the 9/11 report?????

The Usurper:   The original article with the quote you cite appeared in the DC Indymedia.   It was submitted by "anonymous."   That's a great source now isn't it?  BTW, anyone can post an article on the site.  Since that is the case, there is no way to check the source.  Where did this anonymous get this info?  The author claims that he talked to three sources that overheard the comment.  Sure.  Who were they?  We can never know.  Doug Thompson just reported it, he's not a witness to what, if anything, was said.

And what about Doug Thompson?  It's his site that carried this questionable quote.  Here are some titles to a few of his other articles:  # Bush's betrayal   # Burn in hell, Mr. President   Americans no longer buy Bush's lies

--many more of the same kind can be found there

Many other sites carried the piece you posted and but this comment sums up the original source nicely: 

12/17/2005 - 14:11:37PM  
BY: Ray
Capitol Hill Blue seems to have a recurring problem with anonymous sources.

I mean, conned for 20 years by the same guy? Doug Thompson should have retired in shame. Obviously he is a gullible mark, and if he doesn't name his "sources" I won't believe a word he says.

Thompson originally retracted the article but then decided to repost it.  He retracted it because it lacked a verifiable source.  One has to wonder why he then decided to repost it and claim that he now "stands by the story."  Maybe his obvious hate for Bush had something to do with that decision.

On one website, this message preceeded the article: 

"Warning: The Content in this Article May be Inaccurate

Readers have reported that this story contains information that may not be accurate."

  no kidding.  Mr Anonomous is a hard man to track down.  Getting a statement from him seems impossible.

In the end Greg, you'll have to find a more credible story because this one fails the test of truth.  And if you insist that it's true, that will reflect heavily upon you in my view.  Are you going to be one of those that embraces a story simply because you want it to be true (because it fits into your worldview scenario)? 

If this story is untrue (and it most likely is a fabrication) then you have fallen for the very thing for which you warn others.  Time to rethink this one. 

(V): can you know see the difference between real socialism and a fake socialism,

So what you have in the UK, that is the fake socialism?

The local community would be in more charge as they being the local people would be able to better work out their needs

That doesnt sound like any UK socialism, or really socialism anywhere in the world right now.

The Usurper:And can you show me a report where Bush is interviewed where he was asked about the incident where he didn't deny it.?? ;)

The Usurper:  I agree with GoodTimeCharlie on the name change.  Just because you can google it and get a thousand hits doesn't make it true.  And just because it appears on the nightly news doesn't make it false. 

Put stones in people's shoes and let them decide for themselves.  You are convinced that your worldview is true.  And it may be.  But it's also possible that you have been fooled.  I view most things with at least a slice of skepticism.  I want to remain open to the possibility that my view is wrong.  None of us are infallible. 

The Usurper:"The only facts I have is the report itself."

Then the question becomes, how reliable is this report?  Who wrote it?  What is this person's history?  Does he/she have an axe to grind against Bush or the Republicans?  Who are the sources? 

You write about his incident as if it were true.  And when asked for proof, assume to be true the very thing you are trying to prove!  That is question begging pure and simple.

No.  It's not enough evidence for such a serious charge.  And to build a case with such questionable evidence puts everything else you say in a questionable light.

I am very disappointed in Bush.  I think he failed in many ways as President.  But if he is to be criticized, it can't be because I may dislike him or distrust him.  My criticism must be true or based on truth.  Not a "gut" feeling which could be attributed to bad pepperoni.  Honest, hard, verifiable facts.  Nothing less than that will do.  Hearsay is not evidence.  It's more often closer to a lie than it is the truth.

GoodTimeCharlie: "I was being facetious, thanks anyways, I wasn't even close to being serious about those questions
I certainly don't need people trying to pump ideas or "enlighten me" , even though you may think so.
A.D., maybe renaming this The propaganda or special agenda board would be a better fit"

That's a good point. Maybe you better stick to the nightly news, where you are more likely to receive fair & balanced coverage. It's the enlightened thing to do. Or maybe you have an even better source? God forbid you be propagandized. But it's good to know there is not much risk of that happening with you.....you are so above that. lol

GoodTimeCharlie: "Maybe I am one of "their" agents and have been assigned here to counter you and the usurper"

You're doing remarkably well. You deserve a promotion. :o)

Artful Dodger: "I've seen nothing to indicate that this is true. Got any hard facts?"

The only facts I have is the report itself. I have no reason to doubt its verity, just as I have no reason to doubt the verity of the report issued by the ACLU about 21 homicides via torture in our American gulags. As you say (on the quote about the Constitution) Bush hasn't denied it. Of course he may just be 'above' such things. lol Could I swear on my life it is true? No. I couldn't swear on my life that there is a continent named Africa, either...as I haven't actually set foot on it. And who knows...even if I DID set foot on it, maybe somebody tricked me, and the world map is falsely drawn. Let's look carefully at the source, and see if it is pro-Republican or pro-Democrat.

I googled "bush it's a goddamned piece of paper" and here are the results:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bush+it%27s+a+goddamned+piece+of+paper&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=


By the way, when I say Bush is indefensible, I don't mean he doesn't have a right to a defense, contrary to your insinuation. I just mean that, in my opinion, his defense won't stand up. Please remember I'm the one who thinks people deserve fair trials...whereas you're the one who thinks prisoners should be murdered upon capture to avoid the annoyance & expense of having to house & feed them, etc.