Jim Dandy: Same here, the system is not perfect, but is better than losing a natural resource completely. Our salmon is now mostly farmed, wild is still available but costs more.

But.. while some fisherman are suffering, the industry now has a future. Changes I feel will be made to the rules and regs, yet also the buyers have got to be more responsible. Certain fish is being ignored and counted as a waste of money. Though I remember eating them as a kid. Too many supermarkets dictating what sells, independent fishmongers are vanishing.

In a recent news story the supermarkets are taking heavy flak.. why, because they are buying milk at prices that are less then the farmers can milk it for. It is the supermarkets and their policies that are killing the milk producers in the UK.

Tuesday: Whatever happened to being there to support your political base. Having buckets so people can put in what they can afford. In these days of recession and pay cuts/freezes creaming supporters is just bad form and damn right money grabbing selfishness.

Jim Dandy: Are there no fishing regulations in place to protect against over fishing and the collapse of a viable breeding stock? We had "Cod Wars" here in Europe with even warships getting involved in stopping fishing boats from fishing in their territory.

Over fishing/hunting serves no-one but a short term profit that leads to no business in the long run. You can't hunt/fish what is no longer there.

One noticeable change here in the UK is now, most fish &chip shops stock a wider variety of fish. Also much of convenience style fish products are now made of white fish.

Artful Dodger: There is an old saying that those who refuse to look back at events will carry on making the same mistakes.

And Sarah Palin is making about $100k per speech. Good money for a failed vice presidential candidate who left her job as a governor over (from what I hear) using her position for personal agenda's...

That there are complaints from GOP supporters who don't like the idea of shelling out over $500 to see her speak.

Maybe she has worn out her dresses from the campaign days... Or maybe she is just greedy

What is this about Bush not stopping any spending bill during his terms in office. The Medicare prescription bill I see cost (costs) between $400 billion to $2 trillion??

Education costs under Bush increased from $36 billion to $61 billion.

Jim Dandy: Homeland security... I don't get that yet. Sounds like a strange invasion of sci-fi (Babylon 5 re Night watch and such as the 'ministry of truth') into the real world. I thought the FBI were supposed to defend the internal borders of the USA!

More government???

Artful Dodger: Didn't the Republicans, especially the right wing extremists follow Bush without question? I heard everyone who was on Bush's side go.. "Saddam has WMD's".. Bush tried to link (probably worked for the weak minded folk) Saddam and Bin Laden.

Also you see to fail to remember of Bush's free speech zones, where protesters were herded away from where Bush's travel routes so the protests wouldn't be visible.

Artful Dodger: No I don't know you are right. Is it right that before 1994 the Republican policy on education was different and then the GOP fell in love with BIG government and federal interference in education?

I am looking on the web as we speak, and I am seeing nothing really to back you up, so I am looking for you to provide the data.

Otherwise I'll just consider this just another right wing conservative bash (same with all extremist groups.. left, right or central) on liberals.

We see it in PM's question time. It's just rhubarb!!

.. sorry to all those rhubarb lovers... I know it's a great fruit!!

Artful Dodger: Where is the raw data, no spin.. data.

I am a bit like a certain Mother Superior from the Dune books who asked for an info file but got no guts and notes. It's meaningless in such a form. As it is laced with political hogwash rather then pure info.

Artful Dodger: As I thought no proof, just conservative spin. And no, I have produced evidence, much more than yourself.

Yet I choose to think you know on somethings I am reporting accurately.. just you are stubborn so bite me

Artful Dodger: And so it seems that conservatives like to play the racist card as well.. in many forms.. or so here anyway.

Meaningful debate, without cutting corners.

Artful Dodger: Where is your proof, policy, legislation, etc..

As Pedro said, you ask us to provide. Where is your actual proof?


And you did say.. "True. And NCLB is one of the worst pieces of legislation to come out of Washington in a long time. Perhaps it means well but it handicaps most schools."

Bush made this policy, not liberals... it's kinda shooting yourself in the foot!!

Artful Dodger: And your actual proof of this is???

The point of your post was to make out that liberals are worse than conservatives.

... yet in your post, you are admitting that any mess in the education system is not purely down to the liberals. It's a case of you (liberals and conservatives) not forgetting party politics and uncalled unneeded personality bashing and joining together. Quite frankly the USA being a young united country I can understand why. We here went through the same hogwash after our civil war.

And if the NEA is like the UK unions for teachers (and I would like honesty here, not anti-union old score hogwash) then .. well, let us just say they will disagree with some policies. Some government policies are a waste of time and just create more work. The input and protection the teachers unions over here is vital.

Artful Dodger: corruption is a problem going from all sides. And the No Child Left Behind system isn't exactly helping..

I find it interesting that while Jeb Bush said the schools under his jurisdiction were all 'A' rated, 78% failed under NCLB rules.

I find also that the NEA is trying to stop and end contracts that prevent the best teachers working in poor schools and those who serve minorities.

..... spin has it's place, but like most spin it only tells part of the story. Eg the Conservative party blame Labour for policy 'X', yet back in the days of Maggie policy 'X' was made and introduced by the Conservative government. Like with many policy 'X' type screw ups.. it's too expensive to change, or.. other matters have a higher priority.

The master of the truth??

Abraham Lincoln:

"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew."

The actual thing of being liberal and then changing I think in the UK we have it more accurately phrased...

.. It's called getting on the stage to being a grumpy old man.

Artful Dodger: Blimey.. whichever site you got this lot from likes to distort history. Does it also come with a cleaning solution for the right wingers and neo-nazi groups of conservative background in the USA.

.. You know, when men were real men, women were real women.. n' small furry creatures from the Alpha Centuri system were real small furry creatures from the Alpha Centuri system!!

Tuesday & GTCharlie: We already do pay to see some animals as they are so rare. In some cases due to hunting, etc some species need to be bred for introduction back into the wild.

I prefer the open park zoo's and animal sanctuary's. Good to see lion's roam somewhat.

Artful Dodger: No it can be many factors including man made pollution. It's not just the sun, the seasons, a fart by a gigantic space monster and some of mankind's problem with remembering to look after our home for the sake of a buck.

The orangutan is facing the loss of it's habitat so we can have cheap food and cheap chocolate. Arrangements made to protect the orangutan's habitat and that of the Indonesian rainforest are being broken by men who just love money for those who don't care.

GTCharlie: Zoo's will be more popular, they can hang a sign "extinct. biodiversity levels to small in the wild to continue". People can pay to have their photo taken!!

Artful Dodger: And isn't it true that the number of scientists in the USA exceeds the 2 million mark so 31K is not a big proportion. about 1-2%.

Isn't it true that with regards to data on polar bear population that in most cases they cannot be sure, with many population figures coming back as "unknown".

... one as I said

Artful Dodger: Why? You know I'm right.

Artful Dodger: The arguments? Is this some strange reference to a Monty Python sketch??

Artful Dodger: No Art, I do not make things up. Go look, prove I am wrong or accept your sources are a bit biased.

Artful Dodger: Bill Nye knows the science, I see no mention of having the qualifications to do so..... mechanical engineering, he's qualified in that field. Nothing I can see about matters to do with climate.

Artful Dodger: Yes I found sources on the web. You can too very easily. And I guess you already know this, or suspect such information.

Hey it's today go have a cuppa and relax and let the web inform you.

Ferris Bueller: Since a big wrong prediction in the 80's here no weather man is stupid enough to say "my prediction on weather is 100%".

Did you guys in the USA get any acid rain by chance in the last 20 years or so? The type caused by pollution that killed forests??

Vikings: I'm still waiting for you to tell me what you consider efficient, I'm still waiting for you to report on your bank's and their bonuses.

But hey... Republicans here seem to be above such honesty and perspective. Hence my comparison of private business and government, both run by humans. as I don't know your personal view on what is considered well run!

btw.. those prisoners in the USA jails who make for the USA military such things as body armour and battle helmets.... how is the equipment holding up?

From a British point of view I can see how you guys from the USA might have problems with perspectivity and relativity, after all... during the Northern ireland war (involving terrorists) many private people in the USA gave money which ended up paying for weapons that killed civilians over here as well as soldiers and police.

After 9/11, right wingers moaned about the French, who supplied info on another terrorist attack attempt which with the help of the Canadians stopped said attempt. Just because they did not agree with Bush.

Artful Dodger: There are those on the right that say we do not have any impact for from man on the world, there are those on the left who say we are all going to die!!

.. Actually, we have many on the right saying we are all going to die but that is a loose interpretation of a certain chapter in a book.

Meanwhile cheap palm oil that food manufacturers are using so happily is fast helping a certain close cousin of our genetically become extinct or a zoo only feature.

Vikings: Why did the Bin Laden family leave the USA? How many cases of corporate manslaughter have been filed against USA companies.

Nasa didn't scrap the moon flights, Obama did to save money. The current planned system was a joke and pre dates the current admin, they stopped a farce. Certain drug companies have issued false claims and made billions from drugs that don't work or unsafe.. how, by bombarding the government depts with two much information or supressing facts.

.. That's a world wide issue and has in the USA alone led to a case of over 10,000 people suing the company over diabetes caused by a prescribed drug.

The tobacco companies knew pre 70's of the cancer risk due to tobacco smoking, etc. .. I've seen the files personally due to a job I did relating to a UK class action.

Taxes, everyone tries to evade that. How many billions in off shore accounts.

1000's of UK building companies got caught fixing prices for projects all around the UK. The ripped off clients, were public, private and charities.

I hear Medicare and aid in the USA are bankrupt due to charges made by private hospitals and doc's that are way over the top. Is there any truth in this?

As for social networks.. Don't really use facebook and the likes!!

And how much (you did not answer) are your bank bonuses this year. I hear all the banks are crying "if we don't pay out billions in bonuses the eggheads will leave and join other companies."

... Madoff.

Artful Dodger: Art.... are you trying to tell me you like government health after all? Have you been in denial????

As for you lies, etc about various parties and their members. No side is clean and due to that. No side can try and claim the moral high ground.

Research shows that polar bear figures made in the 70's were an estimate and still are as counting them is hard. There are 19 sub species listed over various areas of the Artic circle of which only 1 seems to be on the increase. Much of any inrease will be due to the fact we've stopped hunting them to extinction.

No-one can give an accurate figure on actual numbers.

Vikings: The FBI have pretty good record, NASA went to the moon. Your police works, taxes seem to be collected.

.. depends on what you classify as efficient. With respect in employment about 95% is efficient.

How are your bank's bonuses this year?

Artful Dodger: I can back up from your posts that you hark on about government fraud than any other type, anyone can see that!! ;)

I can back up from your posts that you think a government based health system is akin to having your feet licked by sheep (an old toture system) .. yet I can also say that a government based system is more accountable to joe public than your current health companies are. Which is something you need in the USA.

I can also say that a recent case of a paramedic denying to resusitate (sp) a man in the UK because he was by opinion... thought to be too fat is a crime. In the USA I've heard people denied treatment over stupid reasons such as "you didn't tick a box".

I know our NHS is not perfect, but as always the option to have private healthcare from national companies is available to those who wish to pay for it. As I said national.. no county to county rubbish... state to state to those in the USA.

Greed is a human thing, one of the seven deadly sins ain't it ;)

to be balanced....

Artful Dodger: I'm sorry Art, but I like to balanced. The attitude you give off when sniping at Obama and anything not Republican or American Conservative is that everyone else has horns and your 'guys' have halo's and are at the right hand of the I AM.

That Obama and liberal minded people invented fraud....

.... Very old British records of army spending show kings in the past concerned over how each penny is spent, long before socialism (apart from some talk by some guy called Jesus and others of his ilk) was ever invented as an economic concept.

I guess the merchants back then liked profit!!

Artful Dodger: Sorry to inform you, but teleprompters have been around for some time... they are not new news. I would have thought you'd heard of them, but I guess sometimes we can miss the introduction of new tech.. and the after effects in oops tv clips!! ;)

Ferris Bueller: She has ideas! Most UK people thought it was scary that she might get to be President of the USA.. in the same league as Nick Griffin becoming PM!! ;)

Ferris Bueller: Thing is... we have a Conservative party and they are all for our NHS, the current leader of the party praises what the NHS did for him and his family.

This right wing attitude of "SoCiAliSm is bad and anti American" is nuts. Using it to justify allowing harm, fraud and a crazy system with more knots in it than a 1000 foot long rope ladder is not democratic.

Artful Dodger: My point was that there are those in business and in government who can and do rip joe public off. You hark on about government like no other organisation apart from government has corruption or abuse joe public.

I've seen government, business and charities who have been caught red handed with their hands in the coffers.

You point out that your current medical system is not right.. well then, it is the private businesses at the moment who are ripping the whole of the USA off. To say "we cannot use a government run system because it is socialist" is at best a loose use of the word socialist and IMHO a very strained stereotype of "better dead than red" old cold war rubbish.

Ferris Bueller: But that was only because of the cold war and the likes of MaCarthyism and "duck and cover"..

.. Guess the fact that the USA having enough WMD's to kill the world several times over if they launched just didn't register on the scare meter in the US....

Reagan got it after watching "The Day After".

Artful Dodger: Which type?

And you do seem to be saying that you don't mind being ripped off by business. It's a crinimal offense over here!! Trading standards being as they are part of the consumer system. ;)

Snoopy: When there was a BIG amnesty some years back. It needs to be kept as an on going thing, manufacturing making knives so cheap!!

Vikings: Pennsylvania "minority report" ...

".....That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and their own state, or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game; and no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals"

Ok.. some words from long past. I mean.. when the right was made, machine guns were not around.

GTCharlie: Not if you like over here use a "you broke the law.. your nicked" policy. It's worked over here with knife crime. There was an amnesty on handing in before, and I guess people use to doing taxes a little extra paperwork is nothing.

.... Yes it would take years to work, but with education and parenting, educational adverts like "Clunk click every trip"..

.. "why do you need an arsenal of 50 firearms?"..... ".. our govenment is plotting aginst me" .. "heard of paranoia?

sorry... done!! Must re-install spell checker ;)

Ferris Bueller: Down Clay pigeon and .22, archery and some martial arts. Certain nerve pinhes can make a man cry just using two fingers :0) ....From documentaries you can learn how the Chinese use to make weapons from simple materials. More skill involved though, but enough that you could make a someone regret trying it on.. In the UK anyway.. less gun crime ;)