Artful Dodger: It doesn't matter, the way the info was presented was incorrect. If you read the BBC it says....

"Gordon Brown has announced a £16bn sale of government assets in an effort to reduce the growing budget deficit.

The Dartford crossing, the cross-Channel rail link and the nationalised bookmaker the Tote will be among items going on sale over the next two years.

The prime minister outlined initial plans to raise £3bn, including selling some government real estate."

I also checked other news sources..
I'm sorry, I tried to be more accurate... I didn't realise that was a crime on this board.

From C4...
The prime minister has given details of an initial round of disposals that could raise £3bn. Much of the rest of the funds will be realised by encouraging local authorities to exchange assets for cash..........
.....But shadow chief treasury secretary, Philip Hammond, said Mr Brown was merely spewing out "headline figures" in a bid to save his own electoral skin.

"We think that selling down assets in order to pay off debt, when you are in the sort of state that we are in, is a sensible thing to look at," he told Sky News. "But this is about saving the prime minister. It is about trying to get some headline figures that he can feed into the election."

Lib Dem treasury spokesman Vince Cable said that, given the state of the public finances, asset sales made sense "at least in principle".

But he added: "Attempts to sell off large amounts of government land into a very depressed market such as we have now would be frankly barmy.

"These asset sales should be based on a financial calculation not a political one.""

Plus Art, most of the assets being opened for sale are at the local council level, something Fox do not mention, only £3B is direct government sales. The councils will be allowed to use that money as they wish.

Better stop reading Fox for your news.. not reliable or accurate enough.

Artful Dodger: Yeah... who calls it "chunnel"?? No-one I know or heard say on the news.

well... It's fox what do you expect!!

Czuch: Nope, that case is still being investigated.

And if you don't read anything with "V" at the begining, then you'll skip all the poor replies to my posts, as well as some excellent ones by non-republicans who've done some research rather than knee jerk reactions and c&pasting far right rhetoric

Artful Dodger: SNL.. yes, they remind me of "Spitting Image" ... just as Glen Beck reminds me of a certain Kenny Everett character... a certain American general who wants to bomb everything that's not 'apple pie'....

And if we are to move on from Bush... why is Beck quoting stuff Obama said 8+ years back, saying Obama wants to convert America to a Marxist state and kill 20% of Americans in the process??

tell me..... are some Republicans so thick as to take this guy seriously?

........... as to cell phones... why can't it be just a universal ban, at least on handheld as a start? I think your lawyers are promoting this rift in laws being set by the government that need to be.

gogul: ... well they tried to tell us to drop our lbs... that failed, the Euro was supposed to take over from the pound.. that failed.

It'll only be black if we let them make it black. And quite frankly.. I doubt if that'll happen.

The Tories here want to put the Lisbon upto a referendum, and at the moment our MP's are still suffering from the expenses scandal.

As for Militarisation... is that in place of NATO? No army will go against it's population if we go by the UK's army's heads and their speaking out against our gov re Afghanistan.

Quite frankly, this sounds like another 2K bug!!

But to more important matters....

When is it going to made law that it is illegal to use a mobile phone in the USA whilst driving? Something that over here in the UK has been illegal for some time.

Artful Dodger: shorter then the the pro Bush's blamed Clinton I guess, depends on how long the far righters keep moaning that there isn't a Republican President.

McCain.. says.. "....As Americans we're proud when our President receives a reward..."

Übergeek 바둑이: I've heard little snippets on the subject, but nothing to this scale. I find it scandalous that USA companies (as it is true) were trading with and supporting Hitler while Europe was either taken over or fighting the German war machine. I find it even more disgusting that even after the 1941 attack on Pearl harbour that USA companies are still trading with Hitler and that an act has to be made to stop trading with enemies!!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

Provides a good read.

The UK had nothing to stop Hitler... the only thing that protected us was Hitler's love of England. If he'd ordered an invasion of the UK after Dunkirk... nothing could have stopped him, we were lucky for what is referred to as the "phoney war" and radar. N' that the German war machine sought to rid us of air power first.

Artful Dodger: So... you are saying that if the USA had gottened involved before 1941 we'd won the war quicker? And if you knew history, you'd know that no European government could stop Hitler, none had the military forces to stop him. That's basic history and I'm surprised you do not know that. Even Russia only stopped Hitler through it's generals January and February.. a well known fact here. I guess USA teaching is not as good regarding WWII.. that's something you need to address.

"I've noticed that when your arguments are weak, you always resort to claiming things that were never said."

I never said it was said, I was asking if you accepted such a statement.. most sane people do see a question.

as for brute force... Ghandi beat the British Empire by non violent protest.. In certain respects.. wasn't that Christ's message. Or did you miss that part???

Yes.. I asked a question!!

Artful Dodger: So... you recognise that the troops needed to free Afghanistan from the Taliban are needed, the Iraq war diverted needed resources from the fight to destroy the Taliban.

btw.. Butterfly's eating pizza.. which sci-fi B movie did that come from. Sounds like an old story from 2000AD

Artful Dodger: Chamberlain didn't sign over the UK to the Nazi's... whoever made that comment is deranged. He sought to overt a conflict with Germany, seeing as at that time we were not ready for a war. It didn't work.

Is the teaching of European history of that time so bad in the USA. or is the comment maker so off the mark his head is in another galaxy??

Artful Dodger: Ok.. you are saying it's ok to let the Taliban off the hook for 9/11?? And more troops mean a shorter war. You want your troops home don't you??

Artful Dodger: Doesn't he work for Fox now??

Artful Dodger: Every politician has speech writers.. I remember McCain's getting it wrong a few times.. or was it him????

Artful Dodger: ... last I heard you were slamming the French, now their opinion matters!!! I'm confused by the change in heart that you'd choose a president of a country you dislike over your own?

Artful Dodger: Yes... Murdoch press. Ow wow!!

Übergeek 바둑이: It'd just be nice to see the nuclear stocpile of all nations reduced below a level that will kill the world. I don't expect a country to give up it's army, but what is the point of having more nukes hen you'd ever want to use.

waste of money and resources.

Artful Dodger: Can you say which world leaders think Obama is a wimp?

And maybe if the USA had not vetoed so many resolutions, the Palestinians wouldn't be so miffed... The missile shield trade off to get a country with still much clout on side sorta makes Iran see that it's a united front. The bay... it'll happen, it's well known that in such matters hickups always happen. At least he HAD a plan The bay is a good recruitment system for terrorists, they can PROVE that the USA are nasty people.

And so... The USA military suffers by having more enemies trying to kill them. You see, a similar situation happened in the Northern Ireland war of terror... it's called martyrdom.

Artful Dodger: The President of the United States of America is a nobody!!

That's not exactly patriotic thinking is it?

Übergeek 바둑이: From what I read it seems that the Nobel panel were glad the USA have under Obama regained some sanity, and for a change .. admitted mistakes were made by the USA.

... A rogue USA is just as frightening as any rogue nuclear power. That Blair lied to stop the USA going alone speaks of the perceived consequence of such a problem.

gogul: Sounds like a baroque version of the Minbari grey council from Babylon 5... The military and religious casts quite happy to fight.. but it's the working cast who suffer.

Pedro Martínez: In what way am I being dumb? Can you please explain how!!

Pedro Martínez: Stopping thee CIA torture business is one aspect. Things that make the USA and Western world hated rather then respected.

Ya know... the Islamic extremists use such things as recruitment propaganda.

Artful Dodger: Loads of people got nominated.... If you know the math then you'll know it's 7 months since the nominations... and I kinda guess they have looked at the time since the nomination.

As for Obama not doing much in his first 12 days.. well that's nothing unusual. I believe Bush spent most of his time on holiday before 9/11 A great example of Republican dedication to the job. zzzzzzzz

Artful Dodger: When nominated.... but the prize has just been awarded... Slight difference in time scale

Artful Dodger: Unknown??? He's not Harold Saxon is he??

.... aka the master!!

Pedro Martínez: Why? He's lowered tensions that had been set up by Bush, he's working to lower atomics, which are an expensive waste of space and only encourages others to want to have such a playground toy.

Ok, he might not haver been on the world stage much (as Art mentions)... but he's reversing bad mistakes by the previous Republican admin and the CIA, who as such have made the world an unsafer place by their apparent total lack of rational thinking.

As for Nobel.. I don't think the man who invented Nitro glycerine (sp) would moan... 205 nominations and they choose him.. must have had some reason!!

Pedro Martínez: Promoting international diplomacy and Nuclear disarmament . He must have been doing something right.... Both the Taliban and Fox News are slamming the award. The Taliban are calling him a murderer basically, Fox News are saying it's because the Nobel people have a thing about not liking ex President Bush.

Obama get Nobel peace prize and Nasa are going to crash a rocket into the moon.

.... And today the Queen leads a service to honour the soldiers who fought in the Iraqi war.

Übergeek 바둑이: Mmmm I might upset someone in saying what needs to be said..

.. stop behaving like kids... amongst other things.

Übergeek 바둑이: We've had a lot of cases of price fixing come to light over here. Another big example here was the charges for using or calling a mobile phone outside the UK. BAE being investigated over bribes (this is the 2nd time, the first the government interceded at a time of a big sale going through .. wasn't in the public interest we were told.. ie the embarrassment would cause the buyers to back out of the deal.

In some respects this where the EU does prove handy, the courts have got pro active on those who seek to rip off the public or ... by bribes force a competitor out of the market, or lower their ability to freely operate. We also have anti-monopolies laws to prevent a company cornering the market by the likes of mergers.

And yes, the real big boys don't like too much change. Yet I don't think they have much choice now, so many consumer groups out there

Ferris Bueller: Well, all I can say is that conservatism like the right fringe in the USA promotes as being "patriotic" would not be accepted at all by the Conservative party over here. The MEP who slammed the NHS (as one UK guy stated) .... who's heard of him before he got paid to be on Fox news.. and electorally wise. He will not get re-elected.

Ferris Bueller: He's being honest about the craziness of the right fringe, and being honest about those that within the USA want the country divided rather than one people.

He was right that America is at it's greatest when it's people are united rather than divided.. as the old saying goes, a whole is always better.

Übergeek 바둑이: Over here, the main gripe by people regarding private sector spin is that of our energy suppliers. Some years back it was decided that 'competition' would keep energy prices realistic, and so it was decided that OFGEM who regulate the energy industry would give up it's teeth on regulating prices.

.... Now, the six main energy companies are making record profits and even though wholesale prices have come down by 50%, retail prices do not show that drop. In fact... the big six prices are so similar that there is no competition.

Despite countrywide condemnation of this.. no-one has the power to enforce price cuts. Even the Conservatives admit that under the current regs, the prices will have to to a tribunal type affair.

No-one in the Government, OFGEM or the energy industry wanted to defend the situation face to face with annoyed customers on a program called "Watchdog". As such, an energy expert (a well respected one) confirmed the customers suspicions.

The energy companies are price fixing.

Funny watching "The O'Reilly Factor" saying "NO SPIN" and then spinning two seconds later.

I just had to see

Ferris Bueller: True to a degree. But at the moment, he's getting bugged to show he's changing. Reports though say it's not him running the country.. he's losing his marbles... I believe If so then as a figurehead... what happens when he dies? Will the army be able to keep it together.

.. and when he does die.. will the other African states intervene??

Übergeek 바둑이: I don't think they will try to depose him.. I hope not. The press and international attention the country is getting is more apt to end his rule. Plus the pressure as much on and by his African neighbours is more likely to get him off his throne.

gogul: It's an animal thing.. to feel good at being rich.. to coin Riddick

It's taken over from the self satisfaction of just doing things. As the robbing of white farmers.. They did the robbing first. You would expect some problem after being a slave race almost for years. Just as in South Africa.

Mugabe won't last too much longer, and I do expect a total 'no trade' will just force Mugabe into black market selling and buying. I don't feel that due to the nature of such economics it is a good thing in terms of helping the problem within that country.

Übergeek 바둑이: The art of passing the buck is a well established tradition. Our 'modern society' is not so modern, just revamped with new names for the 'bosses'. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was the Roman Church. The Protestant Church carried on that tradition an so to a degree have our government's and even businesses.

I think Nietzsche was just trying to do something that a certain Carpenter sought 2000 years ago. To show us what we were doing and how to escape it. Many have, and done good job's explaining the 'human' condition throughout history.

He was attacking tradition, and how we were (and still do through various institutions and businesses) forcing tradition's and belief's down throats rather then encourage free thinking. "Believe us not them or burn in hell", "Better dead then red", "Buy this or be behind the Jones's", etc.. etc...

How many temples do the money changers want??

Übergeek 바둑이: Judaism calls it the two Yetzer's. One is the 'God' morality, the other that drives us to marry, have children.

It is not 'evil' as in the Greek sense, but if the second (referred in Egyptian religion as the lesser God) is not commanded by our own 'God' morality.. that's when what we call evil happens.

It is often that the lesser god (Yetzer ra) is called Satan, or the Devil.. this is just bad understanding and the ability to blame supernatural beings for our own failings. It was good in the old days (as one lady explained)... there wasn't much law. And such so called 'pagan' ideas helped control the population.. then religion got and abused it.
From a pure philosophy point... there is no such thing as good or bad.. there is what is.

As for the master and slave classes, Nietzsche's arguments are a bit flawed and does not fully explain Judaic/Christain/Muslim concepts.

But I'm not getting into that here... take about a dozen pages

gogul: So.... People rich, poor, famous, infamous all go to jail. Over here, if someone made a bad taste joke in a bookmaker's then the shop manager has the right to ban that person, just as much as a pub has, a shop has.. or an airline. Over here a Celeb commentated over her scaring as a result of having breast enhancement and how no-one wanted to see it. That she supported a cancer group for women who've had breast cancer led to complaints to the company running it.

She was dropped by the company as being a 'face'.

But that's the UK.

gogul: No I don't, not all wealthy people are without compassion. A number yes.. But I do not have and do not believe there around figures to determine the %.

"very bad taste does not result in bannings and actions by police"

Oh yes it can. At least over here.. the idea that 'famous and rich' are immune is outdated. I've seen big celeb's banned from airlines, rich going to jail.. just they have better lawyers, and promise to reform.

Doesn't happen always though.

Übergeek 바둑이: I'm just glad a certain figure has not come again.. The way things are today, he'd be lynched and every bit sold off!!

Our bookmakers here quite often take strange bets.. but betting on if people will get killed.. that would be considered very bad taste and would likely to result in a banning and possibly some action by the police.

Betting on an election result.. that's normal. Like the yearly bet if it'll snow on Christmas day.

US probes Obama 'death' web poll

The US Secret Service is investigating a poll posted on social networking site Facebook, asking people if they think President Obama "should be killed". The poll, posted on Saturday, was taken off the site as soon as the company was made aware of it. It was put up on the site using a third-party application that was unconnected with the social networking site itself.

US officials said they would take "the appropriate investigative steps".

The poll, described by Facebook as "offensive", asked respondents "Should Obama be killed?" and offered four possible responses: "No", "Maybe", "Yes", and "Yes if he cuts my health care".

**************************************

Now money and time have to wasted investigating some idiots who forgot that any threat against the President has to be investigated. It doesn't matter if it was a joke or not.

Artful Dodger: And I'm cracked up by your total blinkered approach to anyone who is your "hero" or part of your ideology. Also by your seemingly total lack of knowing what conservative values are.. seeing as you will not define them.

Yes, some liberal orgs do have responsibility if they incite hate or violence. There have been cases of animal rights groups over here, who why they might not have pulled the trigger, they do not state such violence is bad or that it is wrong.

I thought being responsible was part of the conservative way?

Übergeek 바둑이: It's just that they are using paradoxes to rewrite the story lines too much.

Dr Who and Torchwood are better

Bwild: Aye.. I've seen it... and avoid the darn repeats like the plague as so much repeating has been done.

They are actually getting to the stage of making effective energy weapons, the problem still is creating the ability to make a powerful enough surge!!

Bwild: I would have thought MOAB's had kinda made Nuke's partly redundant. Especially the tactical kind. That anyone using a nuke will be um .... um .... in severe trouble kinda makes them redundant.

M utually
A ssured
D estruction

Bwild: I don't know.... I'll have to check. But what I found is that there is a problem in that in some cases there is only one hospital available, and it appears certain companies like keeping it that way. I'm of the inclination that just like with our building industry, there is a long standing 'agreement' over areas of operation.