The Usurper: The revolt I have in mind holds both government leaders & financial/corporate leaders to the fire.

But it all starts with the government.... you cant have bad corporations and monopolies etc, without first having a government that allows all this crap!

We dont have to take up arms to revolt, simply an old fashioned strike by the common people is all it would take!

I am so sick and tired of all these washington elitists milking us common folks for all of their power and prestige and money.... I see pelosi and how soaked up she is in her own importance, so smug in her own rightiousness, and complaining when she cant get a jet from the air force....

we really need some term limits or something to keep these people who are there to supposedly work for us, who end up fat cats off our hard work.... I would love to see pelosi et al back in the job market, these life long politicians mess up everything!

A thought..

Would you all mind saying what you need to and keep it short.. like in say.. a one sentence format.. that way it is easier and quicker to read..

ScarletRose: NO!!

Vikings: So who started this 'rule' and why was it not spotted that it wasn't working and corrected? And that ACORN is a community program oriented program... How come the banks couldn't just prove their case that bad loans are bad loans?

"The banking industry made a practice of talking people into buying homes they couldn’t afford." I read because of ACORN... I don't get how a bank can be forced into making a bad loan. I'd fight anyone if I was in charge of a bank against such 'rules'.

I goto my MP, my Government, my Prime Minister... I'd go on TV, interviews for paper and radio....

But over here, it was the banks fault. And not all problems in America are due 'rules'... $50 billion dollar frauds don't help.

(V): That piccie of you is scary.. reminds me of Chuckie..

ScarletRose: Shhhhhh Don't say the word "scary"... If a certain glob was still here, he'd have you banned!!

But the fraud is no more.

(V): Now see.. you scare me at first.. then you come out with Wit.. I must say boy!! I agree with you 100%..

Our people out here in the West.. or most of America get by on the plastic.. I don't favor them myself.. I learned from my father that you can't afford what you can't pay for.. anyways.. back to my original thought.. 10 years ago.. a young couple who just bought the house across the street from me.. have two dear children and two brand new costly vehicles.. such as a full sized truck and a suburban.. I just wonder what their loans looked like.. scary thought.. even more so then your mask..

ScarletRose: Plastic sucks. It's best to stick to a debit card.

The mask is from the film "V for Vendetta"... It's worth a watch if you can, it's plot is based on what would happen if a government became a law onto itself and the leader of it is a fascist dictator hiding behind the church.

(V): "The banking industry made a practice of talking people into buying homes they couldn't afford."

Doesnt sound right to me either... as far as i know, banks arent even involved much until a person has picked out a home to buy. Except to get pre approved, as far as I know, its usually the people trying to tell the banks that they can afford more house than is really true. So banks are like, sure you want a loan for this house without documentation, okay, pay us a higher fee and higher closing costs and a higher rate and we will do it!

Fine for many, and okay if housing prices are going straight up, but if you have a loan default and the market will not recoup the cost of the home in a sale.. well thats a problem, not to mention some of the appraisers were also jacking the appraisal price up to meet the loan standards as well.

Funny how many times the house asking price and loan amount is something like 200k, and amazing enough, the appraisal comes in at that exact amount! Again, ok when house prices are on the rise, but not so good when they arent and people end up upside down on their house loans.


anyway... what is the solution? Can anything really be done at all? Should we make it not possible to be a bit more creative when prices are on the rise and the economy is good, just to offset when things go south? I am not sure I can buy into that either!

I think it is s symptom of simply the way things are, and too bad so sad....

I know people who were building houses and selling them for a profit before they had even begun construction and even some sold again for a profit when it was being built. Well, if you choose to play that game fine, but those things never last forever, and dont come complaining to me when things go south and you cant even find a buyer years after the construction is complete! Its just the way of the world, all this knee jerk reaction every time we hit a bump in the road, doesnt make any sense to me. Get over it already.. there will always be highs and lows, get over it and move on already.

Czuch: It's not a bump. We are looking at the possibility of a worldwide recession... The IMF is predicting global growth to fall below zero this year.

As a dude there says "...the worst performance in most of our lifetimes..."

(V): I use debit too.. I travel too much and anymore they don't take cash or checks at hotels..
we did get a loan 2 years back or 1 1/2 for the Trailblazer we bought for my usage.. but, I stuck it out with build your own used for too long.. it made sense to get something more dependable..

I shall have to check into that movie.. I could use a good spark for convo..

As for housing prices.. Geez Louise!! I sometimes will catch those shows on Discover or similar which have House Hunters and a few that I can't quite think of the name.. regardless to my amazement these homes they are looking to buy for a first time buyer are sitting at 330 G's plus.. 1stly.. where are these jobs that those peeps are working at which pay that great to afford such a debt.. and 2ndly, is this what peeps actually pay outside Wyoming?? LOL For what these people buy with 3-400,000.00 Can buy a beautiful ranch out here.. with land!!

I mean, what good is it for a bank to give a loan to someone who cannot pay it back? Or to give a 200k loan on a house that is only worth 150k?

What is the upside for a bank to become "predators"?

It all comes down to greed, and it starts with a greedy consumer.

If we drive less the price of gas goes down. Its all a supply and demand thing. Trying to regulate yourself out of any future problems is stupid, IMO.

I dont know where I am headed here... just dont buy the scare tactics that make us socialist because of unfounded fears... its all we hear lately, the sky is falling, but we the government are here to save you... you want something to really be afraid of??? Not global warming or banks or oil companies, it is a government who wants you to give them full reign over your life!

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081004151909AAnGw8X http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/obama-sued-bank-to-force-it-to-give-out-risky-housing-loans-precursor-to-subprime-crisis/
http://iusbvision.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/obama-sued-citibank-under-cra-to-force-it-to-make-bad-loans/

Czuch: Banks bundle good and bad loans together and sell them off to investors , that's how they make their profit

(V): The sub prime loans began under Carter but flourished under clinton

wanna collect the bonus money from AIG? I say get it from Sen. Dodd
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/03/17/recover-aig-bonuses-lawmakers-scramble-undo-protections-approved/

Czuch: --What is the upside for a bank to become "predators"?--

The upside is that periodically they get to tighten the money flow, call in loans, not allow more loans to cover payments due, and foreclose....thus transferring property up the line.

Here's a whole list of great educational resources on Money & Banking:
http://www.realityzone.com/banking.html


It does come down to greed, including greed from customers, for which they are responsible. That doesn't change the fact that the entire social mechanisms in place are designed to cultivate that greed...that it is in a very real sense programmed in.

You are right in that there is no governmental solution. The solution is for the government to step out of the way, let the competition of the free market decide these issues...and stop bolstering these banks which don't mind getting into financial trouble because they know the government will bail them out. Socialism at EITHER END...for the banks or for the customer....is destructive to liberty.

Czuch: "But it all starts with the government.... you cant have bad corporations and monopolies etc, without first having a government that allows all this crap!"

That is true. If we reel in the excesses of the government, the Monopoly Capitalists will be cut off at the source. To do this, we need to return to Constitutional restrains on government and abolish the Federal Reserve.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

— Benjamin Franklin

The so-called "War on Terror," just like the so-called "War on Drugs," is really a War on Liberty. The "USA Patriot Act," the "Military Commissions Act of 2006," and other new laws require that we "give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety."

The answer to 1984 is 1776.

Though it is a difficult process of confrontation, and sometimes of accusation and counter-accusation, it still bears fruit.

Even if, in the middle of heated debate, it seems that no one's mind or position is influenced by his debating opponents, it can still....in the honest mind...produce thoughtful reflection afterwards.

AD has been researching 9/11. I don't know where his research has led him to this point. But it is a good thing, regardless. Czuch I'm not sure about, although I hope he is at least considering the possibility that handouts to banks & corporations is at least as detrimental to liberty as handouts to the poor.

As for myself, I've been forced to look more closely at the global warming issue, and more generally & importantly, I've been forced to examine my opinions on Individualism vs. Collectivism...to delve more deeply...and I've arrived at some different conclusions than I previously held in my arguments on this board.

Specifically, I discovered the inconsistency of my position, that handouts to the poor are ok, whereas handouts to the rich is not ok. What I learned is that it is the same mechanism at work. The government that has the power to favor certain classes of individuals, be they poor or rich, also has the power to destroy individuals.

(V) and I have generally supported each other, though we certainly don't agree on everything. It is his willingness to examine the issues that most impresses me, and his willingness to enter the fray.

The point of this post is that, debate is a good thing. Discussion is a good thing. Feedback is a good thing. The more of it, the better for all of us.

Vikings: And no-one thought to question such a policy on both sides of the political spectrum??? That's what gets me. If all your govs since Carter had been Democrats then I could see a point, but no-one on the Republican side either saw or challenged the 'rules' when in power.

... Strange

But there again, I've seen on this side of the Atlantic the same happen. One side says 'X' is a bad idea but when the get into power they don't change it!!

... Strange world we have.

ScarletRose: It's the same problem over here, thanks to a period when house prices and the selling rules were abused, house prices increased to the point where your average hard working Joe can't afford a decent house, or has taken out a stupid mortgage which is now leaving many in the state where their house could be repossessed. And thanks to negative equity through house prices dropping, they are looking at still being burden by a big debt.

That's why the call for more social housing over here is so big. It would have been sorted some years back but dear ol' Maggie Thatchers government stopped councils from reinvesting money gained from the selling of council properties to long term tenants from being put into building schemes.

Yet, one good thing is now there is a scheme in social housing where people can part rent and part buy their properties. Giving them a reasonable start into the housing system without the high mortgages.

Czuch: Which government? The one the President controls.. or the one he doesn't?

(V): In America, Republicans are conditioned to blame Democratic politicians for everything wrong, and Democrats are conditioned to blame Republican politicians.

On this board, I see the pattern repeated on the Republican side, just as among members of my family, I see the same pattern from the Democatic side. It's as if both sides believe that, were all U.S. citizens to convert to THEIR party, everything wrong with America would be set straight.

But you've raised a great point, which is that the politicians of both parties may say different things to get elected, but in office they ACT THE SAME WAY!

The two-party system is an illusion. It is one party with two branches....and that party has abandoned the principles & the laws of the Constitution (our SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND) and is selling America's future.

The Usurper: I've been interested and watching governments in the UK since I learnt economics at school. Our teacher knew that Maggies' boom and bust policy of economic growth was gonna fail and we'd be knee deep in it. Since then I've watched as opposition parties have said "that's a bad idea" but not changed policy on the "'bad idea' or stopped it.

It's like they just wanna mouth each other off so they can get into power to get the extra monies that come from being in power through 'wages'.
... And they always agree on pay rises for themselves.

The Usurper: You make some very good points,,, tell me , if you would , what is your make of someone like George Soros, and his agenda?

Charles Martel: I frankly don't know much about George Soros. Looking him up on Wikipedia, here is my quick analysis:

1. He is a progressive, which means he is a Fabian socialist, at least in heart if not in name. He may be very sincere in this. He speaks against totalitarianism, having experienced it. He recognizes the Neo-Con agenda & the Bush administration as being a grave step towards Fascist dictatorship in America.

2. However, by focusing on the "Right," he is missing the point. He supports organizations of the "Left." This causes me to believe he is a Fabian socialist, in which case he holds much common ground with the Fascists. Both believe in Collectivism. Both believe the Government ought to coerce people to "do the right thing." Both believe rights come from the Government, not that they are intrinsic to the individual, and so on.

3. He claims he is for a free market, but who doesn't? A truly free market eliminates governmental coercion from the equation, and a truly Constitutional government does not apportion taxes unequally.

4. As a progressive of the "Left", he is aiming for the same kind of future as are the so-called conservatives of the "Right." He only thinks there is a nicer way to do it. But this future is a Collectivist future, which necessarily leads, in my opinion, to the totalitarianism he supposedly resists. So despite his criticism of the Bush administration, which in my opinion is proper in itself, his solution is equally detrimental to liberty. The same criticism can be leveled at those who now reject the Obama administration. While it also is proper in itself, it misses the bigger picture, that those who do so offer a solution equally detrimental to liberty.

My quick analysis may be way off base. I took a quick glance at Wikipedia, a George Soros website, both more or less favorable, and one unfavorable article.

The most difficult step, it seems to me, for conservatives....is to recognize that the Bush administration and the Republican party is an enemy of our Republic & the Constitution & Declaration of Independence on which the Republic is founded....that the party is just as Collectivist as the Socialists, though the Collectivism takes a different form.

And the most difficult step, in my opinion, for progressives/liberals, is to recognize that the Obama administration and the Democratic party is an enemy of our Republic & the Constitution & Declaration of Independence on which the Republic is founded....that it embraces the socialist model of Collectivism, and this model is equally subversive to the cause of Liberty, as envisioned & understood by our Founding Fathers & embedded in their documents & debates.

Americans on both the "Left" and the "Right" must come to grips with the fact that both parties reject the principles upon which this nation was founded. And they must turn back to those principles, and rediscover them. Those principles are the hope not only for America, but for the world....not that we can force these principles on anyone or that a One World Republic is desirable, but that the principles themselves are the hope of humanity, for each nation of people to discover & implement for themselves....us being the great Beacon.

The wisdom of our forefathers has been abandoned. It took me a long time to understand just how wise they were, and I am still learning. America truly was the Great Experiment, as expressed in The Federalist #1:

"It has been frequently remarked that it seems to have been reserved to the people of this country, by their conduct and example, to decide the important question, whether societies of men are really capable or not of establishing good government from reflection and choice, or whether they are forever destined to depend for their political constitutions on accident and force."

As of this moment, the Great Experiment is failing. We need new Patriots to rise to the occasion.

For the past couple of weeks I've been working on a set of guidelines for this discussion board.  After much consideration, I've finished what I still consider a work in progress.  Many of the ideas came from other sites that carry many forums, including a political discussion forum.

I'm not posting these for feedback.  I'll be frank.  It's not a democracy.  The guidelines are reasonable and consistent with the guidelines of many other political discussion forums.  They are first and foremost guidelines.  That isn't to say that you can ignore them.   But don't fill my box with complaints that so-and-so broke the rule etc.  I read every post.  I don't need advisers.  The globals watch the board very closely too and when then have seen a problem, they have PMd me.  I appreciate their feedback.  But I can't make everyone happy so I don't want an army of advisers.  I think you can understand why.  If  I see a problem, I'll act in what I think is the best interest of the board.

If you've been around since the beginning, you'll note that I have moderated very little.  Only a few posts (that were flamming) had to be zapped.  One off color joke got zapped too. 

The following post will contain the list of guidelines.  Every participant is expected to read them and follow them. 

Happy debating.

Here are some further guidelines for this forum to follow.
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Time to do it again?

Czuch:According to a recent "caught on camera" speech by Nancy Pelosi, illegal aliens are "American Patriots."  Those that are breaking the law, the Speaker considers patriots.  I'm not sure how she comes to that conclusion.  Breaking down her speech to its logical conclusion, it's "un-American" to observe and follow the law and "patriotic" to break the law.

This from one of our law makers.  Why not just change the law? 

Artful Dodger: "Why not just change the law?"

They're getting to that. The plan is to make a North American Union of Canada, the U.S., and Mexico, to make the whole thing subservient to the U.N., and to end our sovereignty as a nation.

Artful Dodger:those in Mexico and Canada are Americans, same as us here in the USA

Bwild:  When we say Americans we usually mean US of America.  When someone says "un-American" they are talking about the US.  That is clear from what Pelosi said.  There is no confusion as to what she meant.

Artful Dodger:I feel your pain....we get INS raids here in the Ozarks on a regular basis....and it usually the higher paid jobs..ie: bridges and roads.
oh wait...isnt bridges and roads in the stimulas package??

The Usurper: The plan is to make a North American Union of Canada, the U.S., and Mexico, to make the whole thing subservient to the U.N., and to end our sovereignty as a nation.

Over my dead body...

Bwild: oh wait...isnt bridges and roads in the stimulas package??

yeah, stimulate what is the big question right now...

Czuch: "Over my dead body..."

The elites will be happy to oblige.

Here's a whole slew of articles on the topic:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=north+american+union&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=


And here's an Audio (quick download...81 minutes but only 11.5 MB):
http://www.freedom-force.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=NWO_collectivism&refpage=issues

The Usurper: I expect that the plan will meet with stiff resistance... very stiff

I can understand maybe better trade relations if needed, after all them being your next door neighbours it makes sense. But that is it.

(V): It would meet with resistance if people were informed. The problem is, they don't hear about it on the nightly news so automatically that means anyone who brings up the subject must be a conspiracy nutcase. Talk about being deeply imbedded in the Matrix. If Democrats don't hear about it on Olbermann, or Republicans don't hear about it on O'Reilly, why it can't be true.

"The illegal alien crisis is a mechanism for achieving the globalists' NAU goal by creating a de facto erasure of the border. Both subjects are discussed in depth here in many well-researched and documented articles."

http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/

There's no point in hating Mexicans. They're here because that's where the pressures & the opportunities are leading them. If you were Mexican, you'd probably be here too.

But they are here by grand design, just not their own. It is by design of the Global Elite, the same people who brought you NAFTA & CAFTA.

The Usurper: Such a change would require the people to be informed before and a referendum taken on how the people feel.

It's why the Brit Gov won't try to force the Euro on us as a currency, Us Brits like the pound. They tried to make us give up the pound as in weight for the kilo... didn't work.... We still love our old imperial weights and measures.

We still love our old imperial weights and measures.


When I was in grade school they tried that over here as well.... we were switching everything to metric.... I dont remember exactly, but it couldnt have been more than a few years before it was abandoned forever, we just had no real interest in making it happen.

Czuch: i know they teach the metric weight and things in our schools now
ive no idea what they on about,
every food item must display the weight in metric but its upto the stall holder or the shop whether or not they display it in the imperial measures

its actually very confusing while the young only know the metric weights and measures sadly us oldies only know the old system but i guess in 50 years time or less it will be gone for good

Snoopy: It's not confusing for the kids if the parents (like us) teach them both metric and imperial and how to convert easily between them.

And when I went to school we got taught both and how to convert. 2.2 (approx) pounds per kilo and a pound is 454 grams. Same for liquids and measuring height and length.

.... Also it appears when it comes to markets then the rules over weights display is not so rigid. The fruit n' veg and meat stalls still use pounds, no sign of kilos.

Czuch:tried working on your "american" built car lately?   have you bought a "quart" of soda?