Czuch: Free market.. since when has there been a free market? As for a true social democracy.... .... I there one?

No Czuch.. It's the Government serve the people, and how best to do it.

And yes.. most are moderates and go the middle ground. Extremism is never good.

Czuch: But if you go "liberal this, liberal that" it's hardly going to bring the people back together as one as you have already divided the people in your own mind.

As I said, time to forget party, have a few beers and talk.

Czuch: I'd argue it as one who wants full democracy. An end to the "first past the post system" and to see that all parties have to work at a new bill. It's wanting an end to people seeing themselves as 'left and right', but as one people.

And yes, I can see both sides... The strange thing is, at the heart of it all.. everyone wants the same, just how is disagreed on.

Vikings: From what I see the 'tea party' side are moaning about public spending and trying to bring the Republican party back 'together'.... But as one guy who was invited to speak said... "Under Bush the same problem was happening, but where was the discontent back then?" (paraphrased). And that is what is being picked on. The guy was booed off stage btw.

Personally, I feel everyone has the right to hold political rallies, as long as they don't break the law. And yes... the Republican party does need to pull itself together and think about what it represents if it is to become a party again.

It's happened over here a few times when a party has lost it's touch and therefore weakened it's own image in the eyes of the people... which is bad for democracy.

But again, I'm a proportional representation advocate.

Czuch: Rubbish.... If I am 'Liberal' as you call it.. I'm for proportional representation. I don't like any party to have a overwhelming majority as this I feel is bad for democracy.

But also Czuch, to be honest there are many 'right' wingers who " are convinced that they are morally and intellectually superior to every other political point of view ".

This is the heart of the problem. Politicians have so split us into thinking it's 'A' or 'B' rather then 'A+B'.

You know over here. We as one nation are speaking out against our MP's, party allegiance has been forgotten. We as a nation recognise that the abuse over here of expenses has been going on for many years and no party has done anything to end it. Some MP's even tried to put a motion through Parliament exempting MP's from the Freedom of Information Act, which has been used to get MP's expenses published. And it wasn't just MP's from one party!!

Hopefully what is happening in the UK will start a domino effect around the globe in any democratic body who abuses public money, or uses politics to profit themselves.

Vikings: Tea party? Not heard of it... got a link?

As for the media... over here most of the TV News companies are independent, it's when it comes to the papers that there is bias. But at the moment all the media is broadcasting or printing the people of the UK disgust at our MP's.

That this has been going on for years makes it even worse for them. That they are saying "it was within the rules" or "I made a mistake" just proves they are morally corrupt or stupid.. or both!!

But if you want to stop the rubbish in your government, as I said to Art... you have to forget party allegiance and all join together. One nation as one!!!

Czuch: Well then, you need over there as over here. All your people to drop 'party' and get together as a nation and start complaining. Make yer politicians afraid of Americans.

Because at the moment the police and CPS are looking into these expense claims, and if they feel there is a case.. they will be prosecuting those MP's who have abused the expenses system.

And the claim "it was within the rules" will be no defence.

And the other claim by some "I didn't understand what I was doing" is not exactly gonna stand up in court either!!

Czuch: Not all, there are some mentioned who claimed very little or nothing at all. Thank God we still do have some honest politicians.

And this year I believe there are elections this year (or next) and they are all up for re-election.

And the way some are answering about their expenses.... they've made it so they won't get elected.

.... I hope the private prosecutions go ahead!! Or Gordon Brown gets it through his thick head that the only way to clean up this mess so we trust our MP's again and our democracy is to prosecute all those who took advantage of a lax system.

Czuch: One paper over here is starting a fund for the private prosecution of MP's!!

And if it's getting to your side of the pond... GOOD!! .... Maybe it'll cause a revamp of your system and how your reps sit on the gravy train.

gogul: Because they are part of the House of Lords. And their expenses and pay is paid for from public money.

Artful Dodger: The system is not perfect... Too much is now razzle dazzle rather then governing. Proportional representation is supposed to be a better system, yet it so long since I looked at the subject I've forgotten the pro's and con's.

And I hope your guys get to fear your people as well. Too many deals done where your reps line their pockets through various systems... or get jobs paying big bucks after they leave the world of politics.

It's no good for democracy.

TheCrazyPuppy: Too right!! They are all getting afraid of losing their jobs. The MP's are starting to fear the people, and quite rightly too

Artful Dodger: !!!! one hundred lines... "MP = Member of Parliament"

TheCrazyPuppy: Why the police... because they are having a tantrum.

I recon the papers should all start petitions for a full audit for all MP's!!

TheCrazyPuppy: Should be out of their own pocket!! It's taking the mickey!!!!!!

TheCrazyPuppy: Yes, they are... But it's gonna happen for all parties thank EL!!

Because in truth, this scandal has been going on for decades. Really it's UK MP expenses. Also, the simple fact remains... how can we have faith in any MP that has abused the system of expenses, or uses that now boring cry "I acted within the rules".. The rules were slack.

In a company, the person cheating the company would get sacked... But MP's are a different breed!!

Czuch: Yep. I saw those anti-gay Christians on the news yesterday along with the news of the list.

Their website is so crazy... baroque, inaccurate...

And they reserve the right to not respond to emails from those they consider "not learned".

I'll see if they reply to my polite but frank point on that they seem to have forgotten certain core elements from the Bible.

Artful Dodger: It's not only them.. it's the civil servants as well that help keep it going.

Czuch: No, that's what we've allowed it to become. It's time our Governments were fully audited.

And I want Alan Sugar to go over and re-organise the Government here.

As recently reported over here, our 'leaders' have been taking the mickey (again another word is better but PG rating. ) over expenses. It makes me sick that they have been living on the gravy train whilst people are struggling ... But a full report is in place.. Something certain politicians don't want, but the opposition parties as well as members of the Labour party are behind the review.

I mean, an MP rips off the country for over £200k and only has to pay back less then £50k... That's not right!!

Czuch: I think a lot of government systems need..... .... tweaking. And I'm being very understated there!!

As to Katrina... I'm sorry, but your emergency response system seems to have too much red tape. If I get the gist of the delay right.

I don't think the government is the problem.. It's the politics involved that are causing the problem. Too much bickering, worrying about getting re-elected, etc, etc....

As to in 50 years time... it'll be part of history.. as you say.. it will be talked about

Czuch: Czuch.... I you remember my concerns with Iraq, off the reconstruction it was because of the lack of a plan.. which your Government of the time freely admits from what I remember. And if you feel it'll take decades for Iraq to be stable, then I feel sorry for the troops who will die from the lack of planning.

As the old saying goes "Victorious soldiers win first then go to battle, others just go to battle and hope to win." (paraphrased as I can't remember the exact wording )

Also one of my concerns was the need, I find it strange that Bin Laden and the Taliban did not get the attention Iraq got in terms of troops and logistics. That war would probably be over now, the one to get those who planned and executed 911!!!!

And if you feel things take time, then give your current Admin more time, unless you feel that they are wrong and their plans just won't work, or are ill thought out.

But.. the current feeling in the EU is that it'll be some time before we see daylight from this recession.

Bernice: Own it. borrowing it.

TheCrazyPuppy: I'm not a politician.. I don't get fact finding missions paid for.

As I said, show me stats that prove that the Gov and other orgs figures are wrong.

And if the papers thought they were wrong, surely the ones I've read would report that!!

TheCrazyPuppy: You can see the whole of the country with those eyes then? Hooked into all the CCTV systems are you?

TheCrazyPuppy: Look for yourself then... DOH!!

TheCrazyPuppy: Try reading several sites like I do... The figures are not fixed. But you'll have to look into various statistical sites on crime to do that. Not just government ones.

TheCrazyPuppy: Of course you'll say all figures are fixed.

TheCrazyPuppy: Mmmmm are you saying there is no news, no reports, no studies, no government papers...

Please.. I can read.

Bernice: They are fixing what was not done correctly. That's nothing to do with living in an "under privileged area", it's to do with cowboys who our landlords no longer use. And they are not cleaning our 'living area' up. They are making good to their contractual obligations. Just as you would expect if anyone did work at your place. Just in your case I would imagine you'd have to go through alot of hoo haa to get it sorted and lose money in the process.

We don't.

TheCrazyPuppy: You expect perfection, you expect things to fixed in 5 seconds flat.

Unrealistic.

Generations of bad habits cannot be turned around in two seconds. Generations of bad decisions cannot be undone in two seconds.

Bit by bit, day by day.

And please.. a global recession is a global recession.

TheCrazyPuppy: Nope... never said that. Never said there were no problems, never said the UK was perfect. If you read my posts completely you'd see that.

Good and bad in any way of life... that's a matter of opinion. IMHO some 'bad' things are problems to be solved, and such 'bad' things are just manifestations of problems we have ignored and brushed under the carpet in order to make life look 'prettier' for the sake of politics, etc.

As some people say.. how can you know there is a problem if you don't see it? It is not good or bad, it just is. And that you can see a problem gives you the opportunity to solve it. But if you just treat the symptoms, then you'll never solve the problem.

Bernice: No.. being realistic rather then a sensationalist.

Like the Police and British Crime survey showing violent crime falling.

But what do they know?

TheCrazyPuppy: I read he news, watch the news, see how people are changing things.

Oh I know nearby, there use to be one area that was very bad, they cleaned it up by thinking through the problems. Though the final solution of demolition is yet to be completed.

And please.. drugs, guns and knives are just symptoms of underlying problems. Unfortunately 'imported' through 'idols' through lack of hope amongst other things to scary to speak about on this board... being open to children!!

As for the percentage of unsafe areas in this country.. yes there are some, but I feel not as many as you are making out to be. And seemingly thanks to tactics and policies introduced.. I read the figures are dropping.

But hey.. ho, that's just the reported news.

TheCrazyPuppy: We've had a gang culture for years.. Remember the Crays. Nothing new about that. And the amount of stabbings seems to be dropping.

And no.. Inner city people do not live in fear, in some places it may be bad, but to say that it's all bad is an over exaggeration. And in some respects, it's starting to rekindle the community spirit that we lost under Thatcher. eg.. where we live they use to before we moved here quite a problem with yobs.... But the community got together with the police and courts and sorted them out.

Now... it's very peaceful here.

And of certain areas, the problem rises from old style housing, as in too many people in a small area. Most councils are now getting tearing down such housing estates and going back to more relaxed housing systems that encourage a more peaceful life for the residents.

Things are changing for the better. But Rome was not built over night!!

Bernice: No, the UK is not perfect, but there is nothing wrong on being proud of your country.

Those kids might have minds of their own, but if 'home' guns are locked up securely then that's one less potential way of them getting guns. It seems to easy in America for kids to get guns legit!! I know there is no way to stop the black market, but other avenues can be limited.

Yes.. we have crime.. In some areas it's decreasing and some it's increasing. But at least our gun crime level is far lower then many countries.

I wasn't changing the subject.. it was a related topic. Don't you understand that?

Czuch: well... without detailed info, it is difficult to say. Some private schools I can postulate are not great, depending on who runs them and under what 'traditions'. EG a strict right wing school may not teach evolution, or sex ed, etc.

... In this case a private school would I'd say be bad to very bad. But, I must admit.. I don't know how in America.. private schools are 'audited' if at all by the local authorities. Over here, how well schools perform is public information open to all... In America??????

Bernice: Not all countries have a murder problem at school as a big problem. And as in America, which has a gun problem.. simple. Stop the kids getting hold of guns and knives. It seems to easy for a teenage kid to get hold of guns and go on the rampage... Too easy. I mean.. over here in the UK before the gun rules changed, if someone wanted to own a gun they had to be approved, and also the storage at home had strict rules.... eg one locked secured box for the gun(s) and another for the ammo and firing mechanisms.

And IMHO.. if at year dot all kids are taught at school that bullying was a no go, then perhaps later incidents of 'murder' would drop.

And as for the subject.. As normal with any subject, people digress. I thought you would have gathered that by now!!

GTCharlie: And some do, and close down, or merge... or have to get their act together, just like with public schools.

At least, that's the way it happens over here. We also have a strict no bullying rule, that is taught from year dot now. Which, at least for my kids seems that the schools they've attended is working. Here it's a matter of closest schools first, no catchment area skipping unless there are no local places.

Unless you want to pay private.... But mostly that is not needed as Catholic, Christian, Muslim, Public, etc can get funded by the government.

GTCharlie: Then all I can say is that in Philly if the best schools are only Catholic, then what on earth are the others doing? I see that public schools from looking at rankings can be just as good.

... And I would imagine some can be just as bad as the bad public schools.

Unless, you can substantiate such a claim of.. "those who can and care...send their children to private or Catholic schools in this city" .... which, unless the USA system is so lop sided that it is so different from the UK system, that.. in which public schools can be the best in the country.

Czuch: No, that's not knowing if all the bad apples have been removed from the barrel. The RCC was a little hesitant in admitting to the problem, and although I've no experience of problems from being taught in a RCC school, I would still be cautious for the safety of my children out of concern as any parent would be.

You've missed a lot of news here Czuch, not just about the RCC, but about other items that schools rely on to insure that those who work with kids are safe. And of old episodes, that despite people being told, were 'ignored', for the sake of image.

Luckily.. my alert senses ain't gone off yet.

GTCharlie: that's a bit of stereotyping isn't it!! And as for Catholic schools.. referring back to some events not that long ago.. It could be a change from one nightmare to another.

Snoopy: The inquiry won't take long once the forensics come back... As the family say.. they'll get the answers to the questions they have. That he dies a few minutes after being attacked by a policemen rather makes them curious!!

Czuch: Many want proportional representation over here. It's more democratic and ideally no one party will have enough power to bulldoze through with a policy, hence.. hopefully, things will be more though out.

As for the policemen.. Too early, it's the real world and forensics take time. But one point... Initially the police said they had to protect Ian Tomlinson against protesters... A deliberate lie... As I've mentioned earlier, the police forgot that today as much as they monitor us, we can monitor them.

GTCharlie: Written by someone who seems to have got his figures wrong.

Oh well, at least he has a day job

Czuch: Czuch... you are forgetting that your health care is ranked 37th in the world, yet is one of the most expensive systems in the world.

It's called having an unregulated system, that's costing your countrymen a fortune for a system that doesn't work.

You guys are paying about 15%+ of your GDP compared to our 8% (approx) and we are ranked 18th in healthcare.

I think you ought to get your facts right and be realistic instead of making statements based on bad data and unresearched ideas.

Czuch: Less then your current system per head. And that's a fact!!

Czuch: Nahhhh, you forgot management fees etc.

And you got part of it. There are many more variables that affect taxation.

Czuch: No.. No and NOOOOO. It's only £150k+ that he pays 50%. I thought that was very clear, I've explained it....

SEVERAL TIMES

Now, if you can't understand that simple fact of UK taxation.. then what is the point of me going further?

Now, who is better at knowing the UK taxation system? Someone who lives and has dealt with it, worked in UK accounts.... or, someone who can't be bothered to look up and study how our accounts work?

I hope you don't do your own accounts!!

Bernice: I know enough that a general accurate figure for someone earning $150k is not possible. It's not just a factor of how much you earn, but if you have a family, savings, day care, etc, etc.

And I think Czuch is quite capable (I hope he is) of finding a tax calculation site for the UK.

Czuch: Work it out yourself, use a calculator... but seeing as there are other variables.. you'd still not be accurate.