Hello padugi :)

when ever I look at a countries culture, I search for an anchor older than the present representation. For Europe, to me it's not Charles one. I took him to illustrate something. How did he came to power anyway? Europeans were sick and sad, there were no more point of reference, nobody knew about the fake of this bogus called religious authority be it Rome or Bysanz. China is ridiculous with Mao. Xioapeng is ridicoulous with a formation in France. I don't give nothing for a formation in France. As chemist you might have maybe an insight of what steel is, if so, you'd be my man!

You have no idea how horrible I consinder the 'reflection' of my culture, which is the fake of the roman catholic church. Behind this there is richness and infinite knowledge. We ove. Here are indeed save, it's the senseless Europe sent out to colonalize for instance king thoughts were: What the bull are the colonialists bringing home again. Russians are save. I still do doupt in China. Point of reference? What is Han??

Übergeek 바둑이: I only chuck stuff away that no longer has function, I only update as necessary. The PC is by nature of some computer boffins research expected to double in capability about the two year mark... but most can be updated, (even better if you have a good 2nd hand computer store nearby with loads of bits from deconstructions) so they can last a long time.

It all boils down to whether you take care of your gadgets or not. Yes, as a matter of fact some gadgets will no longer have function, as in eg.. not the capacity to run new programs due to speed specifications. But there will always be bits that can be salvaged and reused or sold on.

Bricks and mortar are still preferred here... traditional. The only new scheme is to use breeze blocks as the inner wall (or concrete in flats) to save time and give better strength. Yet.... still there is daft schemes advertising "house guaranteed for 10 years".

Here in the UK now we have street level recycling due to a two bin and glass collection system as part of the bin run. Compost heaps are an old favourite as well The gutter water barrel is more and more used.

But the country is still a work in progress!!

(V):

> But the country is still a work in progress!!

I think all of humanity is a work in progress. Here in Edmonton we have a good recycling program too. We put all recyclables in a bag or bin, and there is a big plant where they get sorted and sent to appropriate places for reuse.

I saw a system similar to yours in Austria. One bin was for recyclables like glass, and another for organic matter that would go into a municipal composter.

I think the real problem is plastic. Bacteria cannot digest them, and as they age they leach out plasticizers and other additives. Science makes progress, but the progress is slow if people see no profit in it. Science created all of these materials that we need in every day life. It is up to science to find better materials that pollute less. In reality nature gives us just about everything we need and natural materials are often the best. For example, hemp fibres are good for clothing and packaging. However, prejudice because several varieties of hemp are used as a drug (marihuana) has slowed down commercial development and research.

Maybe we should appoint Cheech and Chong as ministers of the environment!

Übergeek 바둑이: Plastic is not enduring if it has to stay at the sunlight. A little problem I guess. Plastic is cool of course.

Your 'I like to recomand you an article of Wikipedia'. LOL

We need to forget that we have to renew everything to keep the ecoomy rolling. We have to keep our economy rolling by producing what we need, obviously food and water. Of both we have enough recources to poison all oceans with corn.

Would you like to invest your time in what yoÜbergeek 바둑이: Plastic is not enduring if it has to stay at the sunlight. A little problem I guess. Plastic is cool of course.

Your 'I like to recomand you an article of Wikipedia'. LOL

We need to forget that we have to renew everyting to keep the ecoomy rolling. We have to keep our economy rolling by producing what we need, obviously food and water. Of both we have enough recources to poison all oceans with corn.

Would you like to invest your time in what you are passionated to? Do it, in the new world you'll do it, be it flying a plane to your grandma, be it a blade, be it music.

Lies is what keeps our systems alive. The glass you give to recycle, you can do better about with a special knowledge. The weed you compost, an other will need it for alcohol. You'll pay as guest by being welcome.

An overwhelming fortune. Today represented as brandnames.u are passionated to? Do it, in the new world you'll do it, be it flying a plane to your grandma, be it a blade, be it music.

Lies is what keeps our systems alive. The glass you give to recycle, you can do better about with a special knowledge. The weed you compost, an other will need it for alcohol. You'll pay as guest by being welcome.

An overwhelming fortune. Today represented as brandnames.

I think it was the city Salem. Everyone got killed because nobody told them about problems you can get with corn.

Today we don't get told what we really need, it might as well kill you.

Übergeek 바둑이: Most plastic these days is recyclable. They make plastic carrier bags that breakdown in 18 months, food containers, polystyrene packaging.. all recyclable.

Our blue bin is full every collection time. Tins, cardboard, plastic.. as for compost.. I ain't giving it away.. a home compost heap is what most UK people prefer. Good for next years fruit and veg crops.

I have mobile computer issues. Sorrytwo posts bellow. I could redoit tonight, but this does it as well, my message came through. It's not intentionally like that.

The only problem here is the old blocks of flats that were *cough* 'inspired' housing. But they are slowly disappearing.. they are getting demolished being the bad idea they are, and the remains recycled into usable material for foundations.

(V): Marco Polo or Ignatius di Loyola. At least your boss is a lady if it comes to religious culture

with everyone of YOU, you have musicians to hire, yours is only the text.

With one feet you are in the grave, with the other in heaven. Take care my friends, by concious

gogul: Lady?? Only in respects of the divine... And yes I've heard the many coloured land as such.. but in that there is no grave.

(V):

It is good that we recycle plastics. The real problem is not so much the polymers. Polyethylene, polystyrene and other thermoplastics can be melted and recycled. Thermosetting plastics like polyester can be reused for upholstery stuffing, carpets, etc.

The real problem with plastics is UV light degradation and all the plasticizers and additives.

As UV light degrades plastics, small amounts of hydrocarons are released, and some of those have biological activity. As the plastics degrade the plasticizers leach out and those chemicals have biological activity too.

There is a big push now to get rid of plasticizers like BPA because they have estrogenic activity and they can affect fetal and child development as well as increase chances of breast cancer and prostate cancer. In animals they can cause problems too, such as thin and brittle egg shells in birds and they can inhibit reproductive activity in amphibians and reptiles.

Ideally, recycling improvements, changes in legislation, and technological changes can make things better.

Übergeek 바둑이: Ok... with plastics it's not perfect... but it's a whole lot better then ten years ago.. even 5!!

The amount of stuff that is now recyclable plastic wise by the markings is about 90% of what we get through our household.

Funny technology.. just saw a program last night about how lucky WWII ended in 1945. The German boffins had cracked 'stealth' technology with speed that would have broken the British radar system and would have given time for the development of the Nazi A-Bomb and a jet fighter style wise akin in shape to the American Stelth bomber. They could have nuked the USA (or any country within range of the bomber) and no-one had the technology to stop them.

The guys who build the radar models for profile testing at the Stealth plant were so happy to at last to show of their skill and dedication in the reconstruction of the German Stealth fighter/bomber, as normally it's all .. hush, hush.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/06/the-aircraft-that-could-have-m.html
A link to a page on the German 2-29

Übergeek 바둑이: First, what causes capitalism? People do. Wars are fought due to the greed for wealth and power.


Yikes! 34 new posts and this is the first two lines I read???

First, capitalism is not something that is "caused"...

Second, Why wars are fought cannot be so easily generalized

Sometimes wars are fought in defense of something, so you may start one with me because you are greedy for wealth, but my war is in defense of you, I am NOT fighting a war for greed or wealth, merely survival.


(thats all I got right now, since I have many posts to read and respond to)

gogul: WOW! You want to blame China??? Its so funny, the America haters (jealous) seem to forget about any other world problems, you never hear the media or anyone else, its all just America blah blah blah....

Übergeek 바둑이: We pollute a lot more than China does,


REALLY???

(V): The only new scheme is to use breeze blocks as the inner wall


as a plaster/paint contractor, i want to know more about what is a breeze block?

Übergeek 바둑이: Maybe we should appoint Cheech and Chong as ministers of the environment!


yeah... and maybe they can tell me why my crop is so bad this year?

gogul: We have to keep our economy rolling by producing what we need, obviously food and water. Of both we have enough recources to poison all oceans with corn.


This I had to paste, just because it made me LOL!!!

Czuch: having been married to a plasterer/tiler....a breeze block is a block with holes in it....lets the air through

http://www.besserblockcentre.com.au/newsite/html/screen_blocks.html

Czuch: I dont consider a countys people as a team. To be elitary means to be a abuser. I blame vertical within a society and not downward like all the people who admire the uglyness of the elites, but upwards, just as it has to be. Your elite wants you to fight weaker humans than you are. You better make a good choice and fight upwards and realize that in your county as well not everything is at best.

gogul: To be elitary means to be a abuser.

Do you not consider the Bono's (U2 band leader) of the world to be elitists as well?

Czuch: When will this end that there are Americans who think that it matters if people from elsewhere are jealous of America. Jealous are those who seach for being part of an elite, hence working in jobs to develop abuse. All the rest wants a decent life for them self and everybody else, no matter where they are. This is the real world. Nobody reasonable wants your wealth, but where I get robbed, I take it back sooner or later.

Czuch: I could care less about musicians and hollywoodstars. What makes me explode are big corporations, they are everything else but entertaining.

Czuch: Corporations like Deutsche Bank (sponsor of the Berlin philharmonica) and Siemens. Very fortune, above the law, without respect for ALL marcets, whose taxcontributions circulate in a loop within some elites. The Germans are told that there is no money around anymore, and to be a good German, you need to pay your taxes. Again money that finds the way in the loops of the elites. Germans work for their elites, all the money they pay in form of taxes and fees serves to entertain the elites. As tourist you see lovely fassades everywhere in the rich areas of Europe, the ones promoted by the tourist industry. These fassades have been restorated lately, all in new glitter. These nice fassades represent the fake to all who struggle without reasonable reasons. The elites fail horribly, and their promises were not even ment to be honest. I can count a lot of things of which I know that the industry got able to produce under much cheaper conditions as 10, even 5 years ago. Do we profitate of this? Not a bit. 90% of the wealth floats in he pockets of few, for their entertainment, because it's their caracter to manipulate, to abuse, to have power over people. Our history is full of it. The power of the cities in Europe, it's a story of the abuse of those who feed the cities. Welcome in the nice middleage cities!

And Siemens products have no value. Cheap producer causing all sort of problems all along the way with its products. This we know as a matter of fact. We'd be better off to do the things our self instead of letting it Siemens do.

Bernice: This is the kind I was referring to..

http://johncottam.com/Picture%20413a.jpg

gogul: Not from what I remember while working at one of their subsidiaries. But that was a classified project for a commonwealth countries army. The standards were very high as the consequences of it breaking down or not doing it's job were severely dangerous in terms of manpower safety.

gogul: I prefer big corporations over big governments.


Big corporations are a side effect of capitalism, while big government is a side effect of socialism....

What is your solution, to prosper and have at the same time no nasty corporations of corrupt government?

gogul: ... and to think that the political powers in the US right now want nothing more than to emulate Europe and its socialists structures, and all the news we hear tells us how happy everyone in social land are, and how the rest of the world hates us capitalists, and if we just joined you all in your happy socialism, the world will suddenly be a better place to live.

I dont buy this crap, but most people do

Czuch: Untrue.. you can have a capitalist country and a big government. And as such ..too much unneeded red tape and 'politics' rather then just getting on and doing the job.

(V): you can have a capitalist country and a big government.

Sure you can, I never said it was mutually exclusive..... but simply that the same capitalist country with a big government, would have an even bigger government if it were socialist

Socialism by its very nature creates more government than does capitalism.

Czuch: I can't agree with you on that. There was an attempt to sort out things in the soviet union and as such the 'system' would have entailed less government, but the leaders didn't like this due to less need for them. It all depends on the leadership on how much government there is. As socialism is a varied concept and used in different ways, as is capitalist ideas..

(V): my understanding..... government runs things/socialism..... private sector runs things/capitalism

I am sure you will explain to me how wrong I am, and how increased socialism will decrease government?

Czuch: http://www.house.gov/jec/growth/function/function.htm

Just read, I've had a glance. It explains more in depth what I'm trying to say

Enjoy.

(V): Here is the first thing I read, took about 10 seconds to find.....


The data in Exhibit 4 for OECD countries suggests that smaller government is correlated with faster rates of economic growth. While in theory government could be too small to provide the necessary environment for economic growth, the data in Exhibit 4 give no indication that any OECD government was excessively small at any time during 1960-96. Within the size of government range of this period, smaller government was consistently associated with more rapid economic growth.

Czuch: ROFL

Czuch:

Czuch: You've not read it all then. Look deeper and you'll find more of a breakdown and talk about the type of government spending.

"In theory the relationship between government expenditures and economic growth is ambiguous. Long ago, Thomas Hobbes (1651) described life without government as "nasty, brutish, and short" and argued that the law and order provided by government was a necessary component of civilized life.4 Taking the Hobbesian view, certain functions of government such as the protection of individuals and their property and the operation of a court system to resolve disputes should enhance economic growth.5 Viewed from another angle, secure property rights, enforcement of contracts and a stable monetary regime provide the foundation for the smooth operation of a market economy.

Governments can enhance growth through efficient provision of this infrastructure. In addition, there are a few goods -- economists call them "public goods" -- that markets may find troublesome to provide because their nature makes it difficult (or costly) to establish a close link between payment for and receipt of such goods. Roads and national defense fall into this category. Government provision of such goods might also promote economic growth. "

"..............In the real world, governments may not undertake activities based on their rate of return and comparative advantage. Small government by itself is not an asset. When a small government fails to focus on and efficiently provide core functions such as protection of persons and property, a legal system that helps with the enforcement of contacts, and a stable monetary regime, there is no reason to believe that it will promote economic growth. This has been (and still is) the case in many less developed countries. Governments -- including those that are small -- can be expected to register slow or even negative rates of economic growth when these core functions are poorly performed. Unless proper adjustment is made for how well the core functions are performed, the empirical relationship between size of government and economic growth is likely to be a loose one, particularly when the analysis involves a diverse set of economies."


I told ya to read it Czuch.

(V): Thats all great... I can agree with all of that.

BUT!!!!! None of that described is SOCIALISM

Roads, courts etc... I agree are good government functions, but there are many more places where the private sector is better at it, not to mention they dont forcefully take MY money to do it either!

Czuch: It's a general look at government of all sorts Czuch, not at any specific sort, but at government in general.

And at the moment, yes private sector can forcefully take your money if you have a contract with them. In certain cases.. take you to court.

But if you want to live without anyone taking your money, I suggest an unpopulated island somewhere.

(V): You can be very agrivating sometimes....

The debate has always been about socialism vs capitalism..... I say socialism by its nature creates bigger government, and that I think bigger government is worse than big corporations....

You tried to say that... well I am not exactly sure what your point was, something about socialism making the government smaller?

Your own links support the idea that LESS government is good for the economy... in other words, capitalism is better for economic growth than is socialism.

We both agree that no government would not be a good thing, so the courts and military and roads etc. are all legit functions for government. But after that is where we begin to split in opinion. You like more and more left up to the government, IE education and health care and who knows where you draw the line?

My point was that the more you rely on your government, IE the bigger your government gets, the smaller your economic growth compared to some country who has a smaller government


....and as to your point about the private sector taking my money IF I HAVE A CONTRACT WITH THEM, is absurd, nobody will ever force you to have a contract, and its not that I dont want to live without anyone taking my money... its just that I want to be able to make my own choice who I give it to, and NOT have it taken by my government to do with it what they think is the best way to spend it on somebody else


If you know where I can get this island.... I would take that route in a heart beat, you would never hear from me again!

gogul: ... and to think that the political powers in the US right now want nothing more than to emulate Europe and its socialists structures, and all the news we hear tells us how happy everyone in social land are, and how the rest of the world hates us capitalists, and if we just joined you all in your happy socialism, the world will suddenly be a better place to live.

I dont buy this crap, but most people do

Czuch: I take notice only of this now. I don't buy this either. Capitalism is flee market ambiente. Is eastern capitalism kind of unpredictable? Ours is, because it is in a tradition of profeteering from the third world. Or why do you think the mainstream media is ridiculizing the info exchange of internet? Is it the growing internetaccess in Africa? What has to go down, goes down.

Czuch: No they don't.. if you read the link and what I posted from the link it's about efficiency. In some cases, governments are better, in some cases not.

And yes, if you have a contract for .. say a year or two, yet decide to not use that service you are still obliged to honour that contract AND CAN BE TAKEN TO COURT FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT.

One thing from looking... is capitalism as such a form of government? Isn't it just an economic system.

Argument

One of the main features of the Great American Debate is the perversion of basic political terms. The far right, for instance, has succeeded in promoting the myth that "liberalism equals socialism equals big government." In reality, there are a great many distinct and opposing ideologies on the left. These include:

Liberalism
Progressivism
Socialism
Social Democracy
Anarcho-socialism
Anarcho-syndicalism
Mutualist anarchism
Social anarchism
Communism
Marxism
Stalinism

This list may confuse some readers who have inadvertently accepted the far right's revisionism; after all, isn't the term "anarcho-socialism" an oxymoron? If this is your reaction, then it is an excellent example of how successfully the far right has redefined the left. This essay will clarify these terms using definitions drawn up by the adherents themselves. Knowing these distinctions is vital, because most people only embarrass themselves by attacking an ideology, only to discover they can't even define it.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-socialism.htm

gogul: What has to go down, goes down.

(V): But nobody forces me to sign a contract in the first place!

(V): In some cases, governments are better, in some cases not.


Well, the part of that link I posted clearly states that smaller governments correlate into increased economicgrowth

Czuch: The social tendencies of govts over here are chill pill for people who need to be kept compfy. It keeps people who have a little left extremly egoist, the state in in charge, and the big corporation finance some entertainment, another form of chill pills.

Czuch: That was not the point. IF you take a contract that requires you to have a fixed minimal term as part of that contract you are obliged under law to honour that contract. And even if you do not use that service (such as internet) you still as part of the contract have to pay as agreed. If you don't the law courts can force a payment in court.

So.. "and as to your point about the private sector taking my money IF I HAVE A CONTRACT WITH THEM, is absurd,"

... is false.

And that part of what you posted from that link, was just a part and as such a distortion of the whole link, and therefore again... FALSE and INACCURATE.

Ok? Or we going to go around in circles??