Übergeek 바둑이: Bush inherited high unemployment and the fallout of high taxes, 3 major hurricanes and 911, yes like all politicians he spent where I wouldn't have but I'll give him a little bit of a break,
Bush also had transparency,unlike 'Bama, with domestic issues, maybe you forgot that he appointed Kennedy to front the no child left behind
And the biggest deficit in history now belongs to 'Bama

Last nights speech was nothing but a huge trial balloon, the fact is 'Bama still has summit ed no plan or bill, can anybody prove me wrong?

let's see who has the guts to watch this video

http://biggovernment.com/

Vikings: So it's allright you being a Republican that Bush had a blank cheque book, and Obama cannot make everything cheaper for you guys to live and have health cover? Change takes time, supporting the economy takes money. If you think he's wrong, that's ok.... but he won the election saying he'd support America, and isn't it better people stay in work rather than lose their houses and jobs??
The phrase NIMBY comes to mind. it was invented after conservatives over here said we need expansion, as long as it's Not In My Back Yard.

And don't try and tell me healthcare was not a MAJOR factor in his campaign..

"A key feature of Obama's election manifesto was to address the unavoidable issue of America's growing uninsured population, making healthcare affordable to all US citizens, especially for children, and regardless of pre-existing conditions Currently, the federal government provides health coverage through Medicare (for the elderly), Medicaid (for poor families and the children of families that do not qualify for Medicaid) and military programs. US healthcare expenditure rose rapidly from 9.1% in 1980 to 17% in 2008, and this rise is expected to continue over the next decade, outpacing income and inflation. As such, healthcare expenditure will account for 20% of the gross domestic product, or $4.3 trillion, by 2017 if left unchecked."

What is your problem in having a cheaper healthcare system, that covers you better??

..... and as for the video.. No org is perfect, you get bad apples and idiots everywhere.

Wasn't Acorn around when Bush was in power??

(V): Wasn't Acorn around when Bush was in power??

Bush wasn't their lawyer

What is your problem in having a cheaper healthcare system, that covers you better??

It will be cheaper - that is a lie
It won't cover illegal aliens-that is a lie
there won't be death pannels-that is a lie
services won't be cut-that is a lie
it won't add to the deficit-that is a lie
you can keep your private insurance-that is a lie


you like your health service then you keep it, it is amazing how you want everybody on it but you know you have your issues about your own healthcare , and everything that everybody points out to you is wrong with it is either "a few bad apples" or "were fighting for it". as for me when my baby was born with holes in his heart and not breathing, the specialist were in the room for him before he was completely out of the birth cannel,
nobody had to check a computor data base to see what they could do and my PRIVATE insurance took care of it all
you keep your crap

Vikings: Yeah right. A forgetful memory??

Vikings: I thought Acorn was another government people.. It's lawyers.. well... enough said.

And as for the lies... where is your proof? All I hear is knee jerk scaremongering, just like McCarthy did!!

And wasn't that a wonderful display of justice!!

(V):Translation:  "Now that I've really messed things up and alienated the middle and the right, I'm going to say a few things that will distract from my incompetency and make my opposition look bad.  We liberals are very good at blaming others. Most will see through this ploy but the left will stand up and walk lock step with whatever I say or do. "

Ferris Bueller: The Republicans aren't destroying this president.  He's doing that all by himself.  The polls show it all.

(V):  Ummmm, standing ovations?   Did you not see that half the room wasn't standing?   The left stood up at every turn.   Stupid little puppets.

(V): Your ignorance on American politics is showing again.  You are 100% wrong, once again.  You're so uninformed it's not even worth arguing over.  It's enough to know that you are basically clueless on American politics and clearly you don't understand the US mindset.

Artful Dodger: ... How are you going to fix problems if ya don't face what's broken??

And less then half the room wasn't standing.. I did see some brave republicans clapping though.... correct me if I'm wrong.

"It's enough to know that you are basically clueless on American politics and clearly you don't understand the US mindset."

If you are so sure.. direct me to a non biased site that can educate me then. People are not that different from country to country in many ways... Politics is not so much different from country to country.. I still see things used that date back (as far as my knowledge on 20th C politics) to the 1930's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_ideologies_in_the_United_States

"..... Political ideologies in the United States vary considerably. Persons in the U.S. generally classify themselves either as adhering to American liberalism, American conservatism or as moderates. American liberalism aims at the preservation and extension of human, social and civil rights as well as the government guaranteed provision of positive rights. It combines social progressivism and to some extent, ordoliberalism and is highly similar to European social liberalism of parties like the British Liberal Democrats, Dutch Democrats 66 and Belgian Flemish Liberals and Democrats. American conservatism commonly refers to a combination of economic liberalism and social conservatism and to an extent, libertarianism. It aims at protecting traditional values (especially on social issues) while promoting the concept of small government. The ideological position a person or party takes may be described in terms of social and economic policy. The ideological positions a person assumes on social and economic policy issues may differ in their position on the political spectrum. Milton Friedman, for example, was left-of-center on social issues but right-of-center on fiscal matters.[1] Several ideological demographics may be identified in addition to or as subgroups of liberals and conservatives with nearly every possible ideology being found in the general population. The U.S. has a de facto two-party system. The Democratic Party generally represents liberal ideals, while the Republican Party commonly represents conservative ideals. Smaller parties such as the Libertarian Party and the Greens play a minor role in American politics and are not deemed able to capture the presidency.[2]

The size of ideological groups varies slightly depending on the poll. According to a 2007 poll, 35% of Americans identified as moderate, 36% as "conservative" and 25% as "liberal."[3] In a 2005 study, the Pew Research Center identified nine typological groups. Three groups were identified as part of each, "the left," "the middle," and "the right." In this categorization system, "the right" roughly represents the Republican base, those on the "the left" the Democratic base and those in "the middle" independents. Within the left are the largely secular and anti-war "Liberals", the socially conservative but economically left"Conservative Democrats", and the economically "Disadvantaged Democrats" who favor an extended welfare state. In "the middle" are the optimistic and upwardly mobile "Upbeats", the discouraged and mistrusting "Disaffecteds," and the disenfranchised "Bystanders." The right compromises the highly pro-business "Enterprisers," the highly religious "Social Conservatives" (also known as the Christian right), and the "Pro-Government Conservatives" who are largely conservative on social issues but support government intervention to better their economic disposition.[4]...."

(V): correct me if I'm wrong

You are wrong.... many times the whole room was standing to applaud the things he said, its just that is the private back room meetings, we know that what he says and what the reality will be are two different things, especially isf we dont fight it line by line, every step of the way.

Its not really that you have to be against any reform or changes, but if you just simply say, go Bam go, we trust you and believe you will do what is right, in all instances, well then you are going to end up with many unintended consequences.

It just part of the push and shove of politics, you cant leave either side unchecked and un scrutinized, it how we keep ourselves going more or less down the middle of the road, with each side pulling as hard as they can on the steering wheel in opposite directions.

Is it me.. or is there a bug in posting?

Czuch: Nahhh, minor adjustments are by nature going to happen just like in building or DIY.... otherwise he will not get re-elected. And if that is the case.. he deserves it.

"you cant leave either side unchecked and un scrutinized, it how we keep ourselves going more or less down the middle of the road, with each side pulling as hard as they can on the steering wheel in opposite directions."

How it happens here.. just certain over dramatising here is very unpopular except to minority groups, and they if they go to far....

Artful Dodger: How about a rotation of discussion of the politics of countries around the world?

I nominate Sweden as the 1st on the rotation, those Swedes have a very interesting system

Jim Dandy: unless it is ENglish or American there wouldnt be any knowledge of other countries politics, and as Artful Dodger told someone on here their ignorance of american politics was showing etc etc....it would be the same with other countries unless you could get someone from Sweden it would all be the usual CCp that we seem to get now.

V:  Like all Presidents, Obama was elected because people like him personally and like the policies he outlines.  However, Obama was elected on more myth than on substance.  He NEVER fully defined his presidency.  Contrary to your assertion, Obama NEVER clearly stated his policies.  And he certainly NEVER outlined his plan for health care.  Obama is the master of ambiguity.   He still hasn't clearly defined his health care plan.  Even members of his own party have different ideas.   For example, Obama says that the goal is NOT a single payer system.  But key democrats say that a government option IS THE LOGICAL STEPPING STONE to a single payer system.   He did not campaign on the single payer option.  In fact, Obama campaigned as a centrist.  He's governing to the left -farther left than his centrist democratic colleagues.  So in fact, obama  was NOT ELECTED by the people of America on the basis of his policies as stated before the election.

Jim Dandy: I have no interest in discussing Swedish politics.  But if you can find others that want to discuss it with you, suits me. 

Bernice: It's a shame, this site has such a diverse population,but the political focus is so narrow

Artful Dodger: I know you're up to it.I think it would be interesting to see how our political leanings translate to other countries environments

Jim Dandy:  Well, someone else will have to start it  ;)

Artful Dodger: It would help us think outside the box,and remove homefield advantage for some

Jim Dandy:  I like home field advantage.

Artful Dodger: Who doesn't,but their are alot of intelligent political minds here.I would find it interesting how they read scenarios other than the ones they have become so familiar with.Folks who discuss the American political situation have to do research in order do be armed with valid points.I wonder if Americans are willing to also research international political situations and lend their opinions?

I'm not trying to cause trouble,I just find the topics here seem to always revolve around the USA,while the rest of the world spins round spins round

Jim Dandy:  With google, research is a click away.  Oh and Fox has a great search database too. ;p)

Now all we need is a topic. 

Artful Dodger: what would we do without FOX

Jim Dandy:  Without Fox we wouldn't have leaned the truth about Acorn because the other networks ignored the story.  Now it looks like the Census bureau has severed all ties with that corrupt organization.  It will all unravel for them soon enough, thanks to Fox. 

Also with Fox, we couldn't see Barney Frank and O'Reilly have a shouting match or see Glen Beck cry.  And all them smart blonds on Fox....Megan Kelly especially.  lol  

Artful Dodger: I would pay money to see Glen Beck and Barney Frank do a Vegas act together, or maybe a sitcom

Jim Dandy:  Could you share what is it that you find interesting about the Swedish system?  Perhaps we could go from there.

Artful Dodger: His speech seemed to clearly OUTLINE his plans for the healthcare system.. He clearly stated that he would be tackling the healthcare system before he was elected.

A certain amount of problems that ALL politicians face before being elected is being able to have full access to the government depts.

Did you listen to his speech in full?

"But key democrats say that a government option IS THE LOGICAL STEPPING STONE to a single payer system."

All politicians are entitled to their opinion... but they are not the CEO. Like that Conservative MEP getting dosh spouting about the NHS.. His CEO of the Conservative party here in the UK totally rejects his opinion as being based on fact.

So in fact.. he was elected on the outline of his plans, such is normal politics that they need development, as he has been doing consulting with people from left, right and centre which can only be done after getting into office!!

This is just the way things work in government, most democratic societies work this way.

Jim Dandy: Cool.. learning new things is fun.

I second Sweden!!

(V): and Obama clearly stated in the past that when a government option would be instated that the private insurance would be put out of business in time, therefore he LIED to the people in his speach.

Vikings: And they will unless they get competitive, stop cheating customers, stop cancelling insurances over things like "acne", stop defrauding the USA taxpayer.

There will be a shake up of the private business industry, that you'll get better cheaper insurance is a bad thing?? Or do you like over paying???

(V): you missed the point, HE LIED is the point.

And by the way can you point out anywhere he has submitted any plan or bill. no you can't because he hasn't. His entire speech was a trial balloon and that's it

Vikings: I think you need to listen to his speech.. I'm concerned that you seemed to have missed alot of what he said.

It wasn't a trial ballon, that was very clear.

But if you do listen to it (or again).. just listen.

(V): Where's his plan? the whole thing was lies and balloons, HE HAS SUBMITTED NOTHING

YOU CAN'T PRODUCE WHERE HIS PLAN IS BECAUSE HE HAS NOT SUMMIT ED ONE

Vikings: Sigh... listen to his speech, it's kinda looking like you are just objecting out of Republican loyalty and copying objections from right wing webs.

Because he was very clear in his speech over plans.

Now, if you have any actual proof he lied. I (as we do in the UK) expect to see evidence in the form of what he said (then and now).. any links you've used (so I can see the whole of what is said on the site).

Basically prove it by his words and by showing how he has differed from the normal run of politics and how governments and policy setting and enactment works.

Simplesss!!

well here is a fast clip http://www.breitbart.tv/uncovered-video-obama-explains-how-his-health-care-plan-will-eliminate-private-insurance/

Vikings: the fast clip has distorted his intent. It's a miss-mash of words put in order to create fear in right wing people.

No good. No evidence.. It would be better if you didn't rely on 'clips' and did the research yourself.

That's how us public trip up our politicians come the likes of "Question Time"

(V): what part of in his own words is "private insurance will be out of business in 10-20 years don't you understand, this is and has always been his goal. It doesn't matter if you listen to the entirety of his talks, he still lied thursday, the only context you don't like is the fact that you have been proven wrong.
His entire speech was a lie and a balloon and I or anyone who opens their eyes can see and prove it

Vikings: *sigh* what part of listen to his speech don't YOU understand??

ALL politicians say rough policies when they are on the campaign run. They cannot be exact until elected and they've worked the figures.

Now.. prove me wrong, by direct analysis and not others 'clips'. I'm asked to do it, and do.

(V): well since you can't (or don't want to) believe what you see in front of your own eyes. and since HE HAS SUBMITTED NO PLAN. All there is left for proof that is in the house bill. which has in it that no one can join a private group the year that that the bill is instated, I've seen it,and since the bill is thousands of pages long and I don't want to spend my football saturday finding more proof that you will ignore, I;m done, I've proved it, you ignored it

Vikings: Yes he did IN HIS SPEECH.

Have you watched it??

Ok, I can wait for a few days if you want that to gather info!! Don't wanna spoil your football

(V):  Yes I listened to his speech.  And keep in mind that he's been in office more than 200 days.  More than enough time to have already clearly outlined his plan.  He still hasn't.  He hasn't outlined how it's actually going to be paid for or how it will look logistically.  He speaks in sound bites.  A speech is fine, but there IS NO WRITTEN PLAN to examine.   Obama wants to build the airplane after it's taken off.

(V):"So in fact.. he was elected on the outline of his plans,"

You are wrong once again.  He did NOT have any such plan in place when campaigning.  Just typical election sound bites.  

Artful Dodger: Ohhhhhhh yes he did. Or did you miss the bit about premiums paying for it??

And as for sound bites. THAT COULD BE SAID OF ANY POLITICIAN in the last 50-100 years in any country seeking to be the leader.

Please... I see nothing in any posts today that speaks, explains or debates any point!!

Jules, Obama didn't ever really outline the details of his plan.  He gave some general ideas and revealed his "big picture" but not the details.  Many questions have gone unanswered.

Also, Obama was put in the White House by the Independents.  Those same people are now scratching their heads because they are beginning to see the clear descrepencys between what was pre-election promises and post-election reality.  It's not the Right that's opposing his health care ideas, it's the Right, AND the Middle and those folks include many in his own party.

Artful Dodger: I don't know where you got you figures from, but from a quick scan of polls.. I'd say it's divided. 85% of Democrats seem to approve of what he is saying.

As to clarity of his plans.. before the speech, many were not sure, but since that figure has decreased dramatically.

Part of the confusion over his plans seems to directly come from those who oppose him and his reforms presuming and creating fear... rather than a 'wait and see'.

Those who've watched his speech in full, seem to feel that he has a plan, he is explaining it... and, as he said, next week more will be released in clear legislation.

I got this info from scanning a few polls. Though as usual in polls a few % points either way has to be included as a matter of the inherent problem that polls have.