Übergeek 바둑이: You have good points, but war was here thousands of years before capitalism. Humans will always compete against each other in some form, just like tribes of chimpanzees

GTCharlie: Chimps behave like they do as they as being animals they have no choice in the wild. The ol' fight or flee rules them. But we branched down a different evolutionary ladder. There is nothing wrong with being competitive, but we can choose how if we use the ol' grey matter... even though we live (to use a phrase) in the concrete jungle.

We've let the 'kings' in the past tell us who we should fight, by whatever name they choose to crown themselves by. But the old definition of Lord still is remembered, and when that rules... they do not.

Übergeek 바둑이: At least some of the lesson was learned, and now we have the European Union. It is not a perfect union, but at least the superpowers are not at each other throats any more. The fact that they are willing to welcome Slavs into the Union means that some of the old prejudices are slowly dying, and people still feel shame in the killing of Jews and Gypsies.

The creation and existence of the European Union has never had anything to do with war endeavors and war lust of the superpowers. You are absolutely off-base there.

Plus, the EU was never meant to be a "perfect" union and nobody wants it to be. I would like people from the North America to stop comparing the US union and the EU. There is nothing they have in common. Nothing.

The fact that they are willing to welcome Slavs into the Union means that some of the old prejudices are slowly dying, and people still feel shame in the killing of Jews and Gypsies.

What old prejudices? And what has the admission of the Slavic countries to the EU to do with the holocaust???

Pedro Martínez:
Just to clarify, I never compared the EU to the US. By perfect I mean that people do not necessarily want the same currency or political system, and for that reason some aspect of the EU are still being worked on.

I didn't say that Europeans formed the Union to stop war, but rather that Europeans stopped fighting and formed the Union. The EU has its origins in political, economic and idelogical principles that go back to the 19th century. It took two world wars to show European people that working together was better than fighting, and the motivation for the formation of the EU was there even before those wars.

> What old prejudices? And what has the admission of the Slavic countries to the
> EU to do with the holocaust???

Adolf Hitler and the Nazis had a deep hatred of Slavic peoples. There was a time when it would have been impossible to suggest people in Germany that they would share the same currency and even some of the same laws with Czech or Polish people. We also have to remember that the Holocaust went beyond Jews. Gypsies, Slavs, Communists, and other peoples were targetted by the Nazis. Millions of Slavs died in and out of concentration camps.

Some of the prejudice is still remnant in terms like "Bohemian", a term used to describe "the untraditional lifestyles of marginalized and impoverished artists, writers, musicians, and actors in major European cities". This was "a common term for the Romani people of France, who had reached Western Europe via Bohemia". Of course, the Kingdom of Bohemia was located in waht today is the Czech Republic. It was that kind of prejudice that the Nazis used against Gypsies and Slavs. The EU has made a lot of progress in moving against that prejudice and discrimination.

Übergeek 바둑이: Just to clarify, you keep comparing the EU to the US, viewing the EU system with the same "eyes" that got accustomed to the American type of union. The EU is perfect as it is - having the same currency or same political system within the whole EU has never been the primary (or even secondary) goal of the makers of the EU. The essence of the EU rests in uniform market and the Four Freedoms. For military affairs, there is the NATO.

Europeans stopped fighting and formed the Union
The EU was established in 1993.

Are you saying that the Nazi view of the world has an impact on what the European Union officials consider in deciding what countries should be admitted to the EU?

The term "Bohemia" was derived from "Boiohaemum," i.e. the land of the Boii (a Celtic tribe), therefore whoever wants to base any prejudice on your interpretation of the word must be nuts. If you say that such prejudice is slowly dying in Europe, I'm telling you that you don't know what you are talking about. It's the same as if I wanted to claim that there is a prejudice against the Canadians in the Czech Republic, because "kanada" means a heavy boot in Czech.

Pedro Martínez:
> The EU was established in 1993.

I recommend that you look at the Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_union

The EU was offically established in 1993, but the impetus to form it goes back to the end of WW II and the Paris Treaty of 1951. The legal framework on which the EU was formed took decades of negotiation.

> Are you saying that the Nazi view of the world has an impact on what the
> European Union officials consider in deciding what countries should be admitted
> to the EU?

No, I said that Europeans put aside some of the old prejudices that were emobdied in the Nazi racist view of the world. I never said that Nazi views influenced the decision of which countries should join, but rather that countries like Germany moved forward and put aside their old prejudices.

As a Czech, you must know very well the views of Nazis with respect to Slavs. I recommend that you look at this Holocaust entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Slavs

Please read carefully what was posted. I am not reflecting prejudice against Slavs, but rather pointing to the fact that during the war Nazis were putting Slavs in concentration camps.

I was also pointing to the fact that the word "bohemian" was used as a derogatory term against poor people, and it reflected prejudice against Gypsies coming from Bohemia.

Übergeek 바둑이: You forget that we in Europe can distinguish between being a German, being a 'nazi', and being a Nazi.

We had our war trials, Israel has helped hunt down the remainder. We know why Germany became as it was under the Nazi's. We know the causes and as such we cannot blame Germany becoming as it did, or the German people.

It was those who sought the repayment of war damages from WWI that had more to do with the rise of the Nazi party. Especially after the fact that the decision to make Germany repay was questioned.

Why do you think the allies helped in the rebuilding of the former axis powers... to stop the breeding ground.

Übergeek 바둑이: Capitalism ... I feel that is a myth of sorts. Instead of Kings, Lords and dukes, we have CEO's, chairmans and partners. The names have changed. But have we dropped the kingdom, etc.

As back then before business became the new realm, power and money are still the coin that many base their success by.

Territory!!