Well, since in the existing rules jumps over a castle are allowed (maybe it was a very small castle?) any argument that refers to the real world fails. It is more like an Alice in Wonderland setting. So I guess drinking tea with the enemy king (maybe even in the church?) is consistent.

mikkyT: I guess if you are trying to draw an analogy to what might have happened in an historical circumstance, the situation could b elikened to a King, having had his troups decimated retreats (advances) to a haven such as a church. He is safe there for a while but with persisitance the black warriors will eventually get him as could well be the case here.

I was not intending to be flipant or require than I scratch a up a win, but rather to stimulate debate. I know now that this move is currently allowed (else I would have won) however I was at first suprised to see that the 'move into a capture position' rule applied also to the king - this situation had not arisen before in any of my games.

What if white had enough pieces to go and build a 2nd fortress? I would rather not have the king privy to the same rules. These games are obviously based upon real life events. Do you think the Moscovans would stand around, drinking tea with the king? I think not! ;)

mikkyT: Since this is a tournament game and it is still in progress, I would urge readers of this board not to comment on this specific game.

That aside, it is a perfectly legal position arrived at by perfectly legal moves. Black obviously has a huge advantage. If the game ends in a dozen moves time rather than immediately then so what? Such is the nature of Black's normal task in Tablut.

mikkyT: http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=776003&i=35

I refer to that move

http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=776003

Surely a king cannot move into this position and the game be allowed to carry on...

Yes the fortress is very difficult to achieve. Storm has managed it, and in a game against George Miller I attempted it but failed to see a capture threat, he took my piece leaving me with only 3 spare white pieces :(

It makes the task of black far too difficult in comparison to white. There is no balance anymore. Why should a higher-rated player want to play black when a lower-rated player can so easily force a draw?
It is a shame when a serious game is corrupted by such an easy way out for white. Compare with chess, where perpetual check is hard-fought for.
In a good game you have to EARN a draw (if allowed at all).
The castle-building draw in Tablut, where black can only win when white is running out of movements is enough possibility for white to earn a draw. [By the way, even with lin.rule nr 11 castle building near the edge is still possible].

Why can't this site have decent forum software. Shouldn't be hard to integrate phpbb or ubb or something! I need seperate threads for each discussion, not one page where everything is lumped together heh.

Stormerne: I think the crux is, as you state, taking into account possible draws from the outset. If black lets himself into a situation whereby white can force a draw, it's a mistake on blacks part and therefore he should not be rewarded with a win through that mistake.

If on the otherhand, a draw can be forced from the very start of the game through no fault of black (which I doubt) then in this case, the rule has be be changed.

mikkyT: Here's another example:
http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=727934
Perpetual raichi in 7 moves and I am the 'culprit'.

Why did I play it? This is in a tournament. I'm playing the site #5 who is 200 BKR points above me. We're level in our tournament section on points though he's played one more game than me. I can take the immediate draw or take the risk of winning but possibly losing. Will a draw satisfy me in those circumstances? You bet. Have our BKRs changed as a result? No.

Could black have stopped this? Possibly. I hope so. Otherwise the Tablut rules are definitely flawed. If black did not want a drawn game, and it was possible to stop it, then he would have (or should have) taken this into account at the outset.

I prefer the BK version - however it seems the other variant is played (or has been played?) alot, as many websites state corners as the only way for the king to escape. It wouldn't be harmful to implement the other variant I suppose... :)

mikkyT: Don't like the game as much as our standard BK variant. With "corner" tablut, you more or less have to allow the king to be involved in capturing black pieces. You can also treat the corner as a white piece and can capture against it, else black just sets up a barricade of two at each corner. But then black sets up a barricade of three diagonally at each corner and he cannot lose (see my draw against WhisperzQ). Not satisfactory in my view. The games become long and boring too, which is not what happens at present.

Someone earlier mentioned about having the king move to the corner rather than any edge. Here http://www.ludoteka.com/tablut-en.html is an example of the game played at the corners rather than the edges. As you can see the rules of capture become slightly more complex, but perhaps it could be another Tablut variant at BrainKing?

Stop playing devils advocate...

mikkyT: Well isn't that just the point? If you're playing someone who is 545 BKR stronger than you (as in this case), you are very likely to get hammered! In fact your scoring chances are just 4%. Wouldn't you head straight for draw if you could?

When I'm getting hammered and I want to force a draw, is one :D

mikkyT: But how many other kinds of circumstances are there?

To continue the debate, ug has put forward this game http://brainking.com/game/ArchivedGame?g=687167 as an example of the drawback with our present rules.

Now whilst I apprieciate the frustration this must cause, after only 10 white moves , Bobes has forced a draw - I still have to agree with the draw descision. It would be ungentlemanly to play deliberately in this manner to get a draw, but to change the rules to a win in favour of black would be wrong in all other circumstances except this one.

ughaibu: You're just wanting those 5 draws to turn into wins... :)

I don't believe white does have the advantage. I think its fairly equal, just different tactics for each colour.

Possibly, which is why I thought may be an automatic replace was perhaps too much. Maybe with a dice roll, 50/50 that the piece will come back. But as it stands currently, white has the advantage.

It would be interesting, mikky, especially if the pieces were made to look like the film characters
But to put it back as black would give too much of an advantage I think?

harley: Yes, lets get back to talking about Tablut - does anyone have any thoughts on my suggested variant?

Fwiffo: I really don't see it being appropriate to post that. For one thing, the person who was banned might not appreciate it - and they can't post to say if they disagree or not. For another thing, to put it bluntly, it isn't anybody elses business. If you're missing a person posting - PM them and ask why. It may be that they've been on holiday or busy. This is a board for discussion about tablut, not who is banned and why.

One more thing: I would appreciate it when some kind of explanation like "Ughaibu is temporary banned because of profanity on multiple boards" would be posted BEFORE we have to find out -a week later!- that he is unable to post and we cannot read his previous posts.

I PM'd 2 people but I guess too many are curious here to not talk about it.
BBW did a great job, if I'd have logged on to see that kind of language here I would have been furious.
Its my decision how long the ban is enforced, and I have to say, the language used does not make me want to unban him in a hurry - that, along with the fact that this isn't the first time it's happened.

Now, could we get back to tablut please?

I banned and hide him - most of that was done within 2 minutes of his posts - I basicly followed him around to each board to clean up after him. (about 20 boards total, and a couple of hours of my time wasted cleaning up after him). And I did not have time to check to see if threads would be messed up with being hidden since I had to hurry and follow him to the next board - so he was hidden & banned on each board I followed him to. (Where he posted profanity and language that Fencer has asked to keep off the public boards, which he knows about and has been warned before about.)

.... since many seem to wonder.

redsales: - Yup, the system worked good and it was cleaned up before you and many others had a chance to see it.

redsales: He was banned on every public board for it. When you post the same crap on more than one board you deserve to lose posting rights to all boards. And yes harley i know

i certainly didn't see anything on this board..don't know about the others.

redsales: Harley is the local mod for this board. And the globals had to step in when ughaibu went on a rampage across the boards again a week ago.

i don't believe he posted anything on this board to warrant hiding. Why don't the global mods leave moderating to the locals?

As i'm incredibly curious can you tell us the reason.......? Or even PM me for it.....

Ughaibu's posts are unhidden now. There was a very good reason for them being hidden in the first place.

I agree totally with you Stormerne.

I checked another forum I know ughaibu has posted to, and his posts have gone there too. Either he has painstakingly deleted them all himself (highly unlikely and there is no reason to do so here), or some entity such as global mod has taken exception to him and deleted all his public forum posts. In the latter case I suspect they have screwed up and/or exceeded their authority since on the Tablut board ughaibu has always been constructive and benign, whereas on, say, Gothic chess, his posts have been more controversial.

Harley: please find out what has happened and get his posts reinstated, if you can.

I was wondering the same thing... everyone seems to be replying to posts I cannot read!

Why can't I read the ughaibu posts on this forum anymore????

http://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=8387&u=14258&trnst=0

Beginners Tablut tournament for 1500 BKR. Sign up!

Has anyone found a sequence of move that can force a perpetual raichi?
i.e. White can *always* get to that state or win whatever retalliation black returns.

Sounds fun ... might give me a better chance of winning when playing black! ;-)

I've messaged Fencer with a suggestion of a simple variant for Tablut, the idea comes from the film Night of the Living Dead. (I must admit, it is not of my own originality but from http://www.twilightcreationsinc.com/zombies/tablut.php )

The throne represents the basement of the farmhouse, which has been surrounded by zombies. Whites represent the surviving humans, the king represents the lead character in the film.

The game plays as regular Tablut, with the exception that when black (zombies) captures a piece, a dice roll will decide whether that piece will remain on the board but as a new black piece! You could also have an automatic change of colour, but I think the dice roll would add a slight twist without the balance tipping towards black too much.

Stormerne: Effectively what you are saying is that Raichi is check, Tuichu is checkmate...

Subtle difference is that the interface would not allow moves that do not stop the Raichi... interesting.

WhisperzQ: i agree, wi think the system should stay as it is now!

LOL

See my previous post.

Why "of course"..........?

Of course not.

Boring.......? Well i can agree that in the last 7-8 years, defense is the system all teams play, but has not yet, become boring.......... Actually it will never be.
FOOTBALL forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you support any known (European or S.American) teams...........?

It's not, it's unutterably boring.

So why football(soccer) is the best......?