It's NOT "changing stuff". It's making it CORRECT.

Kevin: I don't think the additional move validation would have any noticeable effect on the server performance. I haven't noticed the sites where the rules are implemented correctly being any slower than this one.

Just for the record, I think that all the people who want to change stuff, any kind of stuff, here ; should start their own site with their own rules that they like best and leave the rest of us to have a great deal of fun.

I think it's pretty important.

dream: Being familiar with programming, i am familiar with what would be required to ensure the rules are implememented correctly. It may not be too terribly difficult to program, but if implemented, it would require the server to check EVERY move a player has to see if it is legal (if both dice have been used, and if not, if the higher dice has been used). Without a quite fast server, this would slow down the whole site considerably. Like i said before, i am not against fixing this. But don't you think there are other and more important things that Fencer could be doing?

You are correct Mike, GT and this site are the only ones with this bug. I have played at a lot of the online sites over the years and have never struck it before, and it is a basic rule, as is the rule there should never be a draw in the game of backgammon. It can give a player a huge advantage to NOT have to play the higher dice.
And Kevin as for notifying Fencer everytime it happens so it can be fixed manually, well that sounds terribly time consuming to me, wouldn't it be far easier just to fix it so all of the gammons are coded correctly. I have seen this fault in backgammon, nackgammon and backgammon race here, so I guess it is in the other 2 variants as well.
And I am going to mention the rating system again, the BKR is unsuitable for the gammons, it is the same rating system which was originally used at Goldtoken and is really does not give a good indication of player strength.

These rules need to be implented. As far as I know GoldToken and this site are the only ones not to implement these rules correctly. At GT I once encountered transgressions of these rules twice in 10 minutes so they are common enough to need addressing in my opinion. As RsBaby said, it is very frustrating to set yourself up in a good position only to be beaten by the rules being broken - it spoils the game for me.

I agree that the rule of HAVING to use both dice when possible, is a very basic rule and it needs to be implemented here. I have already run into this situation 3 times on my part, and made the legal move. I dont ALWAYS watch my opponents' moves so I can't really say for sure how many times it has come up on that end. IYT DOES make sure this rule is followed. New games are great, but having the ones we have be correct is more important, in my opinion.

I'll take them as they come. I am new to backgammon, and don't know All the rules. I don't know how to write computer programs either. It is not a perfect world and I enjoy what I have.

How do we know it is a lot of work for Fencer to program the game correctly? I haven't seen him mention that anywhere or is it just your opinion Kevin?

RsBaby: Who called it an "odd rule"? I never once questioned it, or why it exists. MY point was that it is a lot of work for Fencer, and a considerably small result. If i were him, i would fix the games manually where that was a problem, but it really is up to him.

dream: Just for your info, there are chess rules that Fencer has not implemented here. And no one has complained about it! First, if there is a three-time repitition of the board, it is supposed to be an automatic draw according to the rules. Also, if 50 moves have elapsed without a capture or the movement of a pawn is to be a draw. The ONLY place i have ever seen thes is on zillions of games software (located at http://www.zillions-of-games.com/). But like this rule in backgammon, these are quite rare circumstances. And i have not heard anyone even mention them as a complaint.
At the very worst, let Fencer know if your opponent performs an illegal move of this sort, and he will fix it.

I would question that this is an "odd rule". It is fundamental to end play strategy where a stand off arises to play in such a way that your opponent must break first. That is the main area though others arise too. I would also question that it is only 3% of games this applies to but if for now we assume it is, then if you lose/win 3% of games you should have won/lost then that is effectively a 6% change and that is significant.

IYT doesnt have this particular bug, it will be fixed at GT (we have only waited hmmmm how long now lol) I always consider with a game like backgammon, or chess for that instance which has particular rules, then they should be implemented correctly after all these games have been around for thousands of years.
So there should be no draws, no illegal moves, and a game friendly rating system (ie FIBS). So far BK is down on all 3 points, its only a matter of time to see if Fencer chooses to implement them or if the people who wish to play the more serious gammons move on elsewhere. Y'know everyone keeps asking for more games but how about getting the ones we have right first...Just my opinion :-)

Even with that bug, it comes up very rarely (i seem to recall hearing 3% of games). At goldtoken, if that happens in one of your games, you can message Chad and he will put it back and ask the player performing the illegal move to move again. I guess that depends if Fencer is willing to fix these games manually, or if he would rather have the server do it :-)

I usually just accept that whatever the rules are on that site then they are the rules I play by and have fun with it anyway. I only play for fun so that helps too :O)

Yea, most of the turn-based games sites (like here, IYT, and I think Gold Token) do not go by the rules when it comes to that - unless the site is made just for Backgammon ( DailyGammon) - it seems like some of the "odd" rules are left out.

I have also found this problem:
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Lets take for example if you roll a 6 and a 2. Lets say only 1 of your checkers are able to move 6 spaces (and many can move 2 spaces)

So instead of moving that 1 checker 6 spaces, you move it only 2 - leaving the "6 dice" to do nothing, and your move is ended.

-------------------------

It's a known problem here - but also on the other games sites as well.

Question is: Do we want to waste the site administrators time fixing these small problems, or getting new games up and running? (I vote for new games)

The rules of backgammon state that both dice must be played if possible but where play is only possible with one die the higher number must be played. I am not sure about the second part but certainly the first part is not implemented here.

Fixed. I apologize. I had to delete corrupted moves.

game #57884
White has 31
Black has 14

This game with myself and Lilac Fairy, I have way to many men on the playing board, where did they all come from and can you fix this....

You can't delete it, but you can hide it so it doesn't appear at the bottom of the page. There is a link just above the chat archive that allows you to do this.

i love your site. I am playing my first game, and am just finding my way around,,,I cant figure out how to delete the chat that accumulates....where do I go to do this....

I have just discovered a wonderful mac friendly backgammon game, which offers (at last) a lot of features found in jellyfish and snowie. Great database options as well, and the ability to download games from certain sites to analyse...the link for anyone interested is
http://www.bgblitz.com/index.html
you can download and use the demo or pay the more than reasonable shareware fee.

LOL.. I think there is a lot to learn to using the cube. it adds a whole new dimension and strategy to the game... I believe I read somewhere that adding it to this site is on Fencer's todo list...

I think I have a lot to learn about this cube!! LOL!! Thanks, its a lot clearer than it was!

yes if you were to refuse the cube .. the person offering wins that game for 1-point .. or the value of the cube at that time before the offer... and then a new game starts until one player has reached the point-value of the match...

So if the person DOESN'T take the cube they drop a point? Is that like a forfeit?

The paradox is that, if both players know their doubling cube strategy, doubles are accepted more often than not. It's easiest to explain why in the context of a money game; there are additional considerations in a tournament match that we can discuss later.

When playing strictly for money, each game stands on its own. The players agree in advance how much money they will wager on each point. Say they play for $2 a point. Then a simple game is worth $2 to the winner. A gammon is worth $4, as is a doubled game. A doubled gammon is worth $8, and so on. (This can get expensive!)

OK now, suppose we are playing for $2 a point. After a while you think your position is so good that you have a 70% chance of winning the game (nothing in backgammon is certain!). You properly turn the cube to 2 and offer it to me.

Now, here is what I am thinking. "If I drop the cube right now, I will lose 1 point, or $2. Dropping will cost me $2, so dropping is worth minus $2 to me. On the other hand, if I take the cube, I will have a 70% chance of losing $4. However, I will also have a 30% chance of winning $4! The value to me of accepting the cube is therefore 0.70 x (-$4) + 0.30 x (+4) = -$2.80 + $1.20 = -$1.60. Since minus $1.60 is better than minus $2, I should take the cube even though I only have a 30% chance of winning!"

Now, you might ask how the game can have a value of minus $1.60, when I know for sure I will either win $4 or lose $4. Think of the minus $1.60 as the average result that you would obtain if you played many games against this same opponent and always accepted the cube when it was offered to you when the winning odds are 70-30. If you encountered this situation 100 times, you would expect to win about 30 times and lose about 70. Your net loss would be ($120 - $280) or $160. A loss of $160 over 100 games works out to $1.60 per game.

Note that if you dropped the cube every time, you would lose $200 or $2.00 per game.

Of course, if you and your opponent are evenly matched you should also encounter the reverse situation 100 times, where you get ahead, double at 70-30 and he accepts.

sometimes it's a big risk.. other times the person offering may not have quite the advantage he thinks he does.... as you know.. strange things happen in backgammon...

It sounds strange though, if one player is winning, and offers the cube, why should the other person accept? They lose 2 points if they lose the game, and if they're already losing it would be a big risk.

At the start of the game, the doubling cube belongs to neither player, and either can make the first double. Physically, the cube is usually placed on the side of the board, midway between the two players, with the "64" facing up.

Doubling strategy, I might add, is probably the most difficult part of the game.

Ah, I see, so the point that the dice doubles belongs to the outcome of one game? Like in a 5 point match, or 11 point match. I see now, thanks for taking the time to explain, I appreciate it! How do you decide who starts with the cube? Is it the person who wins the first throw?

As long as a match consists of a single game, there is no reason to use a doubling cube. What you may be overlooking is that it is rare in real life to play backgammon for just one point. In tournaments, matches are played for a set number of points, which can be any number from 2 to 25 or even more. So, if you are playing an 11 point match, the first player to score 11 points wins the match. Each game starts with a value of 1 point, and the simplest case is that the winner of the game gets 1 point. A gammon is worth 2 points, however, and a backgammon is worth 3. Finally, if the game has been doubled one or more times, the winner's points are multiplied by the current "value of the cube", i.e., 2 if it has been doubled once, 4 if twice, etc. It's quite possible to play an 11 point match in 1 game in this way; alternatively, an 11 point match could last as many as 21 games!

if i accepted the cube that would make the game worth 2 points.. a gammon would be 4 points.. ... but then control of the doubling cube would revert back to me... if later on i thought i had a lead in the game i could offer the cube back to you and if you accepted the game would be worth 4 points..... gammon would be 2x the cube or 8 points.. etc.. etc...

So what happens exactly? If I gave you a doubling cube when I was ahead... how would that get me more points?! LOL, I'm just not following, sorry!! Give it me in baby talk!!!

say you have a 5-pt match or more... you use the doubling cube when you have an advantage in the game to increase the stakes of that particular game for points.. has nothing to do with money... not here anyway... lol

:o( I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me!
This doubling cube, it sounds like you would only use it when betting on a game? What actual use does it have in the game? I've never used one or heard of it so excuse my ignorance!

A doubling cube is an object used to record the current value of a game that has been doubled one or more times. It's shaped like a die and has the numbers 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 and 64 on its six faces. A player who wishes to double the value of the game picks up the doubling cube before he rolls his dice, and offers it to his opponent with the side labelled 2 facing up. If the opponent accepts the double, he "owns" the cube and places it on his side of the board. The owner of the cube can choose to double at any later time when it is his turn, before he rolls the dice. He would offer it to his opponent with the "4" facing up. The original doubler then owns the cube, and can double again on his turn, and so on.

Here is an explanation of the doubling cube and of gammon and backgammon from Backgammon Galore!

I forgot to mention in an earlier post that multipoint matches would require the system to recognize gammon and backgammon as well.


Doubling
Backgammon is played for an agreed stake per point. Each game starts at one point. During the course of the game, a player who feels he has a sufficient advantage may propose doubling the stakes. He may do this only at the start of his own turn and before he has rolled the dice.
A player who is offered a double may refuse, in which case he concedes the game and pays one point. Otherwise, he must accept the double and play on for the new higher stakes. A player who accepts a double becomes the owner of the cube and only he may make the next double.

Subsequent doubles in the same game are called redoubles. If a player refuses a redouble, he must pay the number of points that were at stake prior to the redouble. Otherwise, he becomes the new owner of the cube and the game continues at twice the previous stakes. There is no limit to the number of redoubles in a game.



Gammons and Backgammons
At the end of the game, if the losing player has borne off at least one checker, he loses only the value showing on the doubling cube (one point, if there have been no doubles). However, if the loser has not borne off any of his checkers, he is gammoned and loses twice the value of the doubling cube. Or, worse, if the loser has not borne off any of his checkers and still has a checker on the bar or in the winner's home board, he is backgammoned and loses three times the value of the doubling cube.

What is Double Cubing in Backgammon?

And, of course, multi-game matches to go with it -- preferably with an option to select how many points to a match.

does anyone know if the site has or is going to add a doubling cube to the games???
thanx for any help.....
jani...

Its all in the prime I think, all those checkers, its easy to make a nice big prime and lock the opponent in, a checker or 2 left on the bar, and the shots are usually there as they find themselves stacking up in their home board.
I guess I play it a little like race as well, but then I tend to treat my race games like regular backgammon really.
Of course at present most opponents are feeling their way and dont seem to be playing with much strategy ...(yet)...:-)

I want to apology to all those that i just recently timed-out on... I just returned from vacation and thought I could save the 2 days I had over-scheduled... in doing so I timed put in 16 games.... had I made my moves first before changing the scheduled vacation days... it would not have happened.... so to all those involved.. I am deeply sorry ... and look forward to other matches with you all soon... ----- Sharon----

I want to apology to all those that i just recently timed-out on... I just returned from vacation and thought I could save the 2 days I had over-scheduled... in doing so I timed put in 16 games.... had I made my moves first before changing the scheduled vacation days... it would not have happened.... so to all those involved.. I am deeply sorry ... and look forward to other matches with you all soon... ----- Sharon----

BIG BAD WOLF's stategy so far:

Well when I first started playing this, I played it like I do my Backgammon Race games (which I'm pretty good at) - which is try to keep a few checkers in the bar to try and mess up the other person.... but this did not work!

So my new stategy is to try to play it more like backgammon - that is get the checkers off my bar more quickly. Not sure how well this will work, but I'm at least started to win more games now.... :-)

The Dream Team is primarily a fellowship for the backgammon variants. We have a strong team already and are open to all bg players who are looking to play with some really nice people.
We have weekly fellowship tournaments happening. Just pop on over or send me a message and I will invite. The only players unwelcome at The Dream Team are those who practise bad sportsmanship!

Anyone had any thought about how CBG strategy differs from regular BG? My early thoughts -- having only started a number of games -- are that there is a great advantage in seizing 3 or more points in both your own home board and your opponent's as early as possible. It can be very constricting to still have 3 or 4 checkers on the bar while your opponent holds 3 or more points in his home. While in BG it can be a disadvantage to make your own 1 or 2 point early in the game, the extra checkers available in CBG may make that less of a consideration.

More so even than in regular BG, the emphasis is on position. I have been slotting strategic points -- especially the 5 and 7 points on both sides -- more aggressively.

I have yet to fully understand the implications of being able to build a prime and still have 8 checkers left over. I will probably learn more about that as the games I am playing progress. A related point I will be watching closely is whether it makes sense to play a massive backgame, with 6 or 8 checkers (or even more) deep in the opponent's board. Timing will need to be relearned from scratch, I think, in light of the additional pipcount available.

I moved the message I posted here a few minutes ago to the Crowded Backgammon discussion board -- I didn't realize there was one!

Hello everyone! I'm new to the site and just wanted to say howdy. I make multiple moves a day and love playing the games. Anyone wanting to play backgammon let me know and I would be happy to play you. I like making new friends. Carol

I will add medium size ASAP.