I'm new to backgammon I saw it played once and found it quite interesting. I read the rules but am stuck and how to play. I figure that in time I will get the hang of it but if anyone has any advice please provide tks.

grenv: I agree... it seems obvious at first glance anyway.....

alanback: As I suspected, though it's nice to see the numbers. :)

gogul: Thanks, gogul. So there's a 2% equity swing between the two moves. That's pretty significant!

alanback:

1. 6/3* 4/3   MWC:  55.27%  
2. 8/5 6/5    MWC:  53.02% ( -2.25%) 
3. 8/7 6/3*   MWC:  51.29% ( -3.99%)
4. 6/3*/2     MWC:  51.08% ( -4.19%)
5. 7/3*       MWC:  50.62% ( -4.66%)

grenv: I would be interested to see what Snowie or Gnubg would say -- Snowie especially loves the 5 point. If I had not already stripped my midpoint, I probably would have made the 5 without hesitation. Consensus seems to be building for the hit on the actual situation.

I'm surprised that there is a debate about this, I'm pretty sure that any other move is a blunder.

alanback: I too would have hit without hesitation

alanback: Should have taken a longer look at it - YES, I would have done exactly what you did if it meant sending the piece to the bar (did not notice that before)

IF the piece was already on the bar (like I thought before), then I would have closed the 5 space - but if it meant sending the piece to the bar, then that almost always is more helpful then a 4-in-a-row block.

alanback: i would have hit .. but thats just because i like to send pieces to the bar (played too many ttt on dailygammon i guess :))

it leaves a single, but that can be used to fill the 5 hole later

alanback: hit and make the 3 point, a prime of four is not much if the opponent can jump with one dice

alanback:I would have played it as you did, he now has only half the numbers to get back in and you can still make more points

BIG BAD WOLF: Yet if I do that, his only runner escapes on a 5 or 6 and I have no direct shot at it. My thought was that by hitting he needs a combo to come out, and I might be able to hit him again or make the 5 point on a later roll. Also, he has several ways of hitting me and making his own 4 point on his next roll; by putting him on the bar I take away most of those possibilities.

alanback: I would have made the 5 point which would have put 4 in a row the opponent would have to "jump" over when he got out. At least that is my quick opinion when I look at that move.

http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1811592&i=15

Playing white, I could have made the 5 point with my 3-1, but I chose to hit and make the 3 point. What would you have done?

Good Luck
On the game to all of my
Opponenets who are playing me
Daily.

Luckly this fun game of gammon
Unlike
Chess gives me a good chance of the occasional
Kind of game that I like.

What Thad said below
Is something
That I agree with, and
Hopefully some day we can see

That happen.
However I don't think it is
About to happen any time soon, so
Too bad for that.

Well,
Everyone

Not, just some of us
Every winner,
Every loser,
Daily players and slow movers

All of
Us
Together
Old & young
Players
Are
Special
So there!

I see we have some gammon players in this tournament

2006 Checkers Single Elimination Championship

we have room for 3 more before it will start so give it a try!

Hrqls: gnubg always doubles immediatly past crawford, I think I´ve never seen it doing different.
In the expert modus gnubg took the cube after the dices 3-1, 2-1 with a score at 6-5 to 7. But not after 3-1, 2-1, 3-3, 1-2.

grenv: hmm true .. the chance for the gammon (which is probably there if its a position in which the opponent would drop) .. would make it a 4 point game .. hmm .. that makes it even more difficult to decide :)

does anyone know what gnubg or any bots say ?

Someone told me about a tournament-final up to nine, a man vs. a woman. She was a strong player but never learned how to use the cube. He was leading 8 - 1 but she won, without ever doubling and he stopped playing backgammon for a year or so.

Um, I still believe that you should always double immediately when your opponent is 1 away. There is no disadvantage to higher stakes, and your opponent does not get the advantage of holding the cube.

For example if you trail 6-4 up to 7, and you don't double. You can wait until you get into a position where you threaten gammon so much that your opponent will drop and you get to play the next game for the match, however had you doubled early you would be playing for a gammon to win the match!

It's possible that your opening roll is so good that your opponent would pass (for example you roll 3-1 and your opponent rolls 2-1). Now you may be too good to double if the score is 6-5 since you will erase your chance of a gammon.

Hrqls: Basically, I think that if you are an odd number of points away from winning a match, i.e. having 2 points in a 7 point match, you wait to double. Theoretically, your opponent should accept anyway, unless he fears a gammon. But you could get a drop that will help you have to play one less full game. On the other hand, it could hurt because you don't allow yourself to win the game with a gammon.

grenv & alanback: there certainly is a reason that i should double always right from the start ... i sometimes forget to double at a later stage .. i click on 'roll dice' automatically :)

i am always wondering when i am 3 points away from the end of the match (and my opponent only 1 and its not a crawford game) .. most of the time i wait and double when i am in a position with a big advantage .. and i think thats the right thing to do .. but sometimes i doubt :)

when i am more points behind it doesnt matter much i think .. but i double later because it feels like i am doing something about it and i like to keep my options open .. the bad thing is that i can forget to double .. and also that he might drop while he would have taken it from the start

so the only one which is clear to me is when i am 2 points from the end, and also when i am 3 points from the finish

Hrqls: I'll look forward to challenging you.

skipinnz: hehe ... true .. but in that case i dont have to play the game anyway and might resign the whole match at the first move in the first game :)

Hrqls: I forgot to post my own thoughts .. i will do so now before i read the replies :)

if i am 2 points from the end i will double from the start as i want my opponent to accept the double, so that i only have to win 1 game and i dont want to forget to double :)

if i am 3 points from the end of the match then i will wait before i double .. i will most likely have to win 2 games to win the match, so if i arrive in a position where my opponent will decline the doubling, then i won 1 already. by doubling later in the game i hold the advantage of the cube .. if i get far behind then i will double anyway then i will double as well in the hope for a wonder :)

if i am more points behind .. then i am not sure :) .. i think its best to double early in even points from the end and later in odd points from the end ?

Hrqls: If your opponent has a "free drop", you should double immediately. A free drop is present post-Crawford whenever the trailing player is an even number of points away from winning. For example, if the score is 1-away, 2-away, the leader loses nothing by dropping except the chance to win the current game. If the leader has less than a 50% chance of winning the current game, he should always drop. So, you should double before he has a chance to fall behind.

If you are an odd number of points from match, then the strategy can get more subtle. There's a certain amount of psychology involved. The leader now has something to lose (and you have something to gain) if he drops. In most cases he should take, but sometimes you can induce an opponent to drop by mistake if you wait. For example, you may have a position in which a good roll will give you a shot at gammon. You should double before rolling, since the opponent may drop and bring you one win closer to winning the match.

Hrqls: You should always double immediately.

Your opponent will always accept.

If you wait until you're winning by too much your opponent may choose not to accept. This is bad. Remember redoubles at this stage are not going to happen.

If you wait until you're losing or the game is close then your opponent will accept and there's no difference.

Hrqls: A lot depends upon your opponent, as to double or not. If he/she is far better player than you it wont matter

you need 2 games to win a match, your opponent only needs 1 game to win the match, the previous game was the crawford game so you are allowed to double again

is there ever a reason not to double at the first move ?

what if you need 3 games to win the match, your opponent only 1, and its not the crawford game ?
i sometimes wait until we are a bit further in the game to see if i can scare him to drop (or lure him to accept) .. but i never know it has any use ?

what if you need 4 games and your opponent only 1 ?

Starting August 1 : Open cubed tournament

california man: play a match of several games (with cube) to make that chance to win even higher

play plenty of matches to even out the rare occurence in which you might lose to a lower rated player :)

Marfitalu: Or not care about ratings so much.

Being challenge to play backgammon Why would anyone want to play a player when points count that if I win,i get one point, if I lose, I lose 15 points?

Hrqls: main reason for that was because of the lack of a doubling cube back then, and the 'luck factor' in a single game, as I'm not the one the luck is always with! :o)

Ok i had some time ;)

here is the top 10% in all positive backgammon variants (5 types)
the rating in nackgammon seems to be the biggest problem as quite some top players are in the top 10% of the other 4 variants, but not in the top 28 of nackgammon :)

Name       Back      Nack      Race      Crowded   Hyper     Average
alanback   2371   6  2041   3  2071   3  2049   5  2271   4  2161   4
Marfitalu  2274  24  1987   7  2015   6  1964  12  2183  28  2085  15
arpa       2238  46  2028   4  1981  10  2128   1  2190  24  2113  17
Hrqls      2280  18  1970  12  1970  14  2024   6  2163  46  2081  19
incognito  2214  75  1983   8  1976  13  1968  11  2196  20  2067  25
basplund   2205  81  2017   6  2010   7  2004   7  2153  59  2078  32

total           989       284       286	      242       604       481
top 10%    2188  99  1913  28  1925  29  1901  24  2153  60  2016  48

Hrqls: Thats ok I've got to increase my BKR LOL

skipinnz: ok .. i guess my next list will be a list of people who are in the top % of all 5 positive backgammon types

i dont know when i will have time do it though .. i still have to do it by hand :)

Hrqls:Doing my best LOL, and I don't play anti

skipinnz: lol :) raise your rankings a bit more ;)

(and maybe play 25 games of anti as well ;))

Hrqls: ROFL, wait for meeeeee tooooooo.

LionsLair: *nod* i almost had you added to it until i noticed that it was still provisional .. while the other variants werent .. funny that the variants are established but backgammon not :) .. i didnt expect that so you were on the list for a short time :)

Marfitalu: true .. and some players have their rank timed out (too long no finished game, red date behind ranking)

when i have some more time i will make a new list without anti, and maybe just the top 10% (or maybe a bit % more in case i am not in the 10% of all ;))

Walter Montego: its html
<i> is the starting italic tag </i> is the closing italic tag
<i>hello</i> would give hello

<pre> and </pre> will make a text fixed font

Walter Montego in fixed width would be

Walter Montego

which can be done with <pre>Walter Montego</pre>

Hrqls: There actually are fewer than 100 players with established ratings in Anti. However, I'm #38 if provisional ratings are included.

While I'm waiting for my other games to play out, I'll play some anti to see if I can get an established BKR. Anybody want to play?

Marfitalu: guess I'll need to complete 6 more b'gammon games to make this list then... :o)

Hrqls: I take it this is all 'established BKR' rankings?

Marfitalu:

Marfitalu: Mainly because anti is silly. I think many more would play the others. I don't play race much but could be persuaded if the moves were quick.