Richard III:

Thanks for the game idea Gary. Does this mean you'll come play me at dweebo's soon? Take me down Gary PUUUULEEEEZZZZE!

pentejr:

Yes, player one sets up the 1st 4 stones (2 of each color) then player 2 gets to chose which side to play. The rest of the game is pente. The point is that if player one sets it up right player 2 will have a real difficult time determining which side has an advantage, making the game play from that position very interesting. the shapes of the 1st 4 stones and the resulting game can be extremely varied.

Richard III: Doesn't D-pente involve the option for position-swapping at some point? That does eliminate the P1 advantage, but to me, it changes the essence of the game. If there is one (or more than one) option to swap colors, then the game becomes psychological, a kind of poker-like game where the object is to trick your opponent into taking the weaker positoin. I can understand why Gary might like a game like that (he plays more than a bit of poker, I believe, as well as pente), but that doesn't look like pente anymore to me.

Thad: Ok, that makes sense, although once you introduce the possibility of a draw, it seems that the proposition hinges on a certain definition of "optimal." For instance, in chess, would it be optimal to play a move that assures you of a draw, or would it be optimal to play a move that risks losing for a chance at winning, depending on what your opponent does? Obviously, if we assume both sides are playing optimally, then you take the draw because an optimal play against your move will make you lose, if there is a chance you can. But people don't play optimally.

But you're talking theory, and I'm talking practice. Point taken.

But wouldn't a drawable version of pente be harder to master (to memorize optimal play) than a non-drawable version? I imagine (but am only guessing, having not done the analysis myself) that this slight rule change would cause most of the major lines to be re-analyzed, as the optimal play of even the most basic openings (wedge, for example) leads to very close games, if both sides play them optimally.

Gary Barnes' solution was D-pente. I tend to like that setup for deflating P1's advantage, even though i don't play it that much.

pentejr: What I meant was that any game like this suffers the fate of having it's outcome unchangable under optimal play. Chess is the same way, except that the game is believed to always be a draw if both sides always make the best move.

Thad: No. Any skill game that has the possibility of a draw does not have this problem because there are ways for P2 to play for the draw as a last resort, which causes P1 to have to take chances, which makes the game winnable for either side. Every time this comes up, I tell whoever will listen that all that needs to be done to fix the P1 advantage at the highest levels of pente is to give both sides the same number of moves. If P2 can pente or take the 5th pair on the move immediately following P1 doing so, then the game would be a draw.

There are other ways of fixing the problem too (different ways of swapping colors early in the game, etc.), but these modifications have always seemed to me to change the essence of the game more than is necessary. As long as there is no way to draw in Pente, the game will be busted, inherently flawed in favor of P1. And that's a shame.

Its always fun finding new moves that no one has played at dweebos but addiction is addiction.

Don't get me wrong. Pente is a wonderfully fun game. I am as addicted as anyone has ever been, or i would never have played it as much as i have.

maybe i need a 12 step program.

Richard III: It's only a problem at the highest levels. Every strategy game (that doesn't employ and dice, concealed pieces, etc.) suffers the same fate.

redfrog: No, I enjoy turn based pente. It’s just that when both players have the skills and spend enough energy they could play a 2 game match forever winning as P1. Alex Nosovski and I faced this problem together in a recent tour at iyt where we went 9 rounds before one of us prevailed. It’s just too easy to win as P1.

Richard III: so really its a flawed game .... we should all quit playing.... at least as P2...wait....ummmmm - or just play speed....lol

redfrog: real-time is the only real challenge. P2 has such a disadvantage that in turn based no one should ever lose as P1 if they spend the exorbitant time they have available with their moves to play the best available option. No one ever spends that much time, I know I don’t, so it remains possible for P2 to win. All p2 ever really has is tricks, traps, smoke, and mirrors, if P1 can avoid those P1 will win every time.

rednaz23: i started playing there recently for the speed pente option... it seems like most people there know eachother and have a good time... i didnt have any issues with the experience and have gone back several times since when im all caught up here.... its great for live play when you really need a fix....

rednaz23: Well, DSG is certainly no worse than it used to be! I don't go there much because I live in a different time zone than most players there. I think there was a slight revival in Pente (and most board games) when the internet became a household item. Perhaps interest in board games has waned again. Just my 2 cents.

cosmicdom: Hey hey....It's never wrong to be on the winning team! haha.

Snut: LOL Figures! You are on the wrong team Snutter!!!!

Fstop: Thad, I'm playing fstop a set right now, and though it's early in both games, I can already predict he will be swept....For smack talking my team mate!!!! Hell yeah!

Thad: LOL gotta love an arrogant pente male! We should bring it for sure!

Thad: That would mean that you would have to learn how to sweep me ....& I have not seen that happen yet .... of course there is always a 1st time for everything ....

I just might win a set .....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

redfrog: I meant team tourney, but if Plente o' Pente wants a bunch of losses, I say bring it. ;-)

Thad: next team tourny? OR TEAM CHALLENGE? PLENTE O' PENTE is ALWAYS accepting.....

redfrog: Next time it will be!!

Snut: it was impressive - thats for sure....

too bad it wasnt a perfect score....

We ******* ruled that tourney! Good job all!

Thad: Most pente boards are played with multi-colored glass beads called stones. Of the stones I've seen, the closest that would approximate opaque white is actually clear. But the first player is referred to as "white" by definition, so that if we are going to have white and black pieces on this site, it makes more sense for P1 to play the white pieces.

shagglbrox: Found this too, at the Renju Federation site, discussing Renju variations:

http://renju.nu/r1rulhis2.htm
-------------------------------------------------
G. White starts the game (which differs from Renju and Go)
--------------------------------------------
------

Also found a proposal from 1987 for International Pente rules that specified White goes first, but there really is no official body that I can tell.

Thad: Closest I can find is wikipedia, which says white goes first. Don't think wikipedia is official though. The original Pente game shipped with 4 different colors.

Found a few links on Go-moku and Go, which all have Black going first in those games.

I don't think there's an official rule for Pente. I'd say follow Go, Black first.

Did everyone read the server news dated April 12th (or 13th depending on where you are)? It mentions that Black should go first in Pente. I'm not sure this is correct. Can anyone site an official source?

Random Pente
Single Elimination for 16 players. 1 day moves, NO DAYS OFF!

Cardhu round two has started...Plente vs. Serious.

Cardhu

A short message from Plente o' Pente -

BRING IT

For anyone who enjoys a face paced tourney.. Please.. I wish to offer it to those who will play continuously.. not just one turn a day ..

°°·.,,.·°¤`'¤¸`°´`°«*Scarlets Springtime Follies*»¸.¤°´`°'¤¸¤´¤°·.,,.·°°

Hrqls: Hehheheheh. That was funny!

Snut: ouch! i always thought you were the hot chick here ;)

Hrqls: If you were a hot chick, I'd be stoked to help you out. But you're not so....Good luck. :-)

Nobody else offered me games to delete them after.
And it's sufficient to play ONE game with black if
you (this time indeed) stand by your offer. It was
not me trying to get an undue advantage, remember...

right after his delete note (quote: "too many games") he created
several new ones in the waiting room, same happened to a friend too.

He will cheat you. Offers games of both colours in
the waiting room to delete his game with black then.

Chaosu: ok .. i might take that offer .. after my games in this tournament are finished :)

I can play with You and tell You after each move was it good or bad : )

does anyone know a nice site about strategies and tips for keryo pente ?

i am trying to learn ... but its hard to think outside the regular pente box ;)

visit dweebo's stone games and learn to play pente againsts the best world players

http://www.renju.ee/wc/

join the Just Pente III tournament...

http://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=9985

Hello fellow pente enthusiasts!

Homebrew/WOW-U (for those that know him) has gotten an itch to host another live-in-person pente tournament. Brew has enlisted the help of Bodo Konze and Jumpin721. They have arranged a spot at Dobie Mall in Austin, TX at the corner of 21st and Guadalupe on Saturday October 1st, 2005 at 11 am.

The address is:
2025 Guadalupe St
Austin, TX 78705

The date is:
Saturday October 1st, 2005 at 11:00 am

You can find more information at Dweebos in the forum or at jumpin721's site at Jumpin721

Tell everyone you know! Please help spread the word even if you are not planning on attending. Homebrew and Jumpin721 (he plays on www.pente.net) would appreciate all the help they can get!

ah blah - let them remain meaningless for competitive players
- not me though - too strong for just being comfortable with my ratings,
and (again) declaring invitations within a proper bkr range welcome ... . ~*~

Pente and variations for players with BKR under 1600.

*****SIGN UP HERE*****

danoschek: thanks danoschek - thats a lot of info to get through, but it seems like its going to be worth it...

Why not try the Pente Guide by Alexander Nosovski,
one of the world's best penteplayers - topranking at brainking ... ~*~