reza: that description doesnt tell the other players that a programme user is playing against them

Please don't accuse Ed of using a programme, he's not here to defend himself. (And I'm sure he's stated before he doesn't)

sLaMdAnCe: we are referring to this tournament:

http://brainking.com/game/Tournaments?tri=25674#5

And it says:


Gothic Chess $500 1st Prize, Free to enter (Gothic Chess - show rules) Creator: EdTrice
As we close the books on another profitable year, we will once again have a free tournament, this time with more prize money. $500 1st prize, $300 2nd prize, and $50 for each "section winner" that is a Knight or Rook before the tournament begins. Players who take 1st or 2nd prize also get the $50 they win in the section. Section prizes will be paid out once the finalists are determined. If any draws are agreed to before 25 moves are played in any game that results in a prize being awarded, the TD reserves the right to award that prize to someone else. I will not be playing in this event.
Back to the list of game types

reza: Whoops! Sorry Ed! Maybe it is worth 500 bucks for him to find out who has the 2nd best cheating machine on this site?

Czuch Chuckers: If you answer this question of mine, I'll answer yours:

what is the user agreement for?

bOtTOm LiNe..
tRiCe WiNz, tHUs No pRiZe.

reza: Why is it okay for anyone to break the user agreement at any time for any reason?

Czuch Chuckers: EdTrice isn't playing in that tourny and we all know EdTrice and Sumerian ar enot the same person. So the worst is that Ed Trice wants to willingly giv ehis money to Sumerian!

Well, I'm sorry I am the cause of all this. I really didn't mean to bring up these things. I still think If EdTrice is giving out the prize, it is his own choice and matter whom to giv eit to. And since he has been aware of the fact that Sumerian is playing with his engine, it is OK if Sumerian wins the tourny. Yes. If I was giving the prize, it would be far too different. Right now, I have no right to complain how others are going to spend their money. My appologies to you Sumerian for all the trouble I have cause you. It's the first time my word brings others problems and I'm really sorry for that.

Czuch Chuckers: dOoMed..

reza: I think Ed Trice only put up that prize because he knows his cheating machine is better than anyone elses. He doesnt plan on paying that prize to anyone but himself. I am glad I dont play chess, and if I did it wouldnt be on a turn based site. My guess is that the majority of the chess players here have cheated at least one move. And it sounds like it is acceptable, so either dont play here or expect to be cheated when you do.

sIg hEIL!

maybe we should trash the rest of the user agreement then??
Cos its ok to use programmes even though it says no you cant. You can say its not to raise bkr..but if you use a programme to win..then your bkr goes up.
Id like to know how many in the mentioned tournament knew a player was in it with programme nomatter how good or humanlike it is, was in it before it started.
Just like the pond game that the players were only told of a "helped" player AFTER the pond started...

WHAT A FARCE

I agree with Chuck. Its not being harsh...its being RULES

Czuch Chuckers: I and it appears Caissus believe it is time to change the wording of the user agreement to reflect the reality of the world as it is and not how some wish it was. Why penalize the honest and reward the cheaters? The one thing good about this is it proves a real drawback to the internet and certain things will always be better.

wE'Re aLL dOoMed..

Czuch Chuckers: LOL! I too think you're being a little bit cruel to him. Pitty Mr. Trice isn't here to tell us why he has agreed to let Sumerian play in the tourny. In fact since he is the one who wants to spend the $500, it's OK if he wants to give it to Sumerian. We really have no right to complain. I complained because I didn't know EdTRice himself invited Sumerian to the tourny. I really think it is O.K to use programs IF AND ONLY IF you let others know and that's something Sumerian has done. So here, I'm quite in favour of him :-)

Czuch Chuckers: There are some other tip offs. For instance a record of 100 wins 0 Losses and 100 draws means a Program has been playing another Program which almost always ends in a draw as well as against regular people who it will beat 100 out of 100 times. LOL

Woah, thats a bit heavy handed, Czuch! You can't end a membership for a man being honest, even if its a bit controversial what he's doing.
Personally, I wouldn't like to play someone who was using a programme, but I'm sure it happens much more than I'm aware of. I think its good that Sumerian tells me beforehand so I have the choice to say I'd rather not play him.
But I do also think that if he's in a tournament then all players should be aware before-hand that someone is using a programme. (Thats the tournament creators responsibility, in my opinion)

OK! Enough already....

Its quite simple. It is against the user agreement here to use a program. But, there is no way to prove the use of such help, so one must assume that others are 'cheating', and the only way to keep up with other cheaters, is to cheat yourself. This all seems quite exceptable, except for Sumarian, who admits to breaking the user agreemant.
The solution is to end Sumarians membership here, and for everyone else to cheat without admitting it, or to lose to cheaters :)

Glad you agree, Stevie

redsales: make a suggestion how to handle that situation in that tournament, so that you would be satisfied, too.

Entering that GC tournament I have not been sure to get that good results in round one. Nevertheless round two will not be that easy to any of the participants. You seem to forget that Smirf still is only a 48K baby of a beta and a victory is not at all realistic.

definately

*sigh* !!!

It's like drag racing.."my machine is better than your machine" LOL

redsales: Do yOu rEaLLy tHiNk tRiCe dOeSNt uSe oNe?

Sumerian: I have nothing against you testing your program here, I admire all acts of creation. I also am aware that Trice invited you to his cash prize tournament. I also know you are the sole programmer and smirf is truly yours. However, using it to compete against humans in a cash tournament definitely is not the same as playing yourself even though you yourself designed it...the simple reason..the program is good enough not to make serious blunders, hang a queen, pawn bishop or whatever other vagaries enter our games when we are tired or drunk or otherwise ill-disposed. It makes no "obviously bad" moves as I know I do on occasion. Having said that, I am sure since it is a cash prize tourney, others will be using programs for an edge. But I just wanted you to know that was one reason I was not interested in entering the tournament, because I did not come here to play machines. Good luck, I will be interested to see if you win.

Pafl: In the German Correspondence Chess Federation (BDF)any helps are official allowed.(They don`t know a better solution of this dilemma)
Even so there are better and bader players.To win against a really strong correspondence chess player you need more...

harley: No worries!

Sorry reza, just a minor disagreement here! Stevie sees that you're discussing chess programmes, where I see it as a general discussion about the use of programmes and cheating. I guess it can be seen either way. But I'm happy for it to continue within reason. If it moves to discussion about specific chess programmes, that would be the time to move it.
Sorry to interrupt the discussion.

harley: Thanks for making your own decisions about this DB. It's worked pretty good up to now. :)

TO SUMERIAN:

That's very nice and generous of you. But I have to refuse since I really am not interested in Gothic chess. If you see I'm taking part in the tournament it is because I just wanted to test my luck and of course abilities and to see how well I can be at something quite unfamiliar.

I am willing, very much willing, to help you bulid a program playing CYLINDER CHESS strongly if you ever decide to do that. But no Gothic or Janus for me. Until when I can manage to have no loss in regular chess, there's no need for me to try those variants. EdTrice is the only man I have seen with NO loss in his profile and smarter than many can even imagine. He has his "iron will" as he once told me and that helps him sit and think for hours and it's something I don't have. I'm just 20 yeras old and am more a kid than a man who is able to sit and just think. I am here mostly to just have fun.

****EDITTED TO CORRECT SOME TYPOES*****

harley: Errr, then I'll repost my message here too.

No, don't worry reza. I think the use of programmes is very much a BrainKing issue, and this isn't a discussion I imagine will carry on for much longer! You all seem to be coming to an agreement. Its good for people to see all sides of this discussion. Fencer seemed interested earlier, thats good enough for me.

Caissus: Caissus, I reacted to your post before because it seemed to me that it says (in other words) "the best way to deal with the fact that many people are using programs is to use a program yourself so that the chances are even". For my part, I have to say that it is much better for me if there are cheaters on the site (people using SW and not admitting it) than if let's say, 60% of chess players would be using SW, admitting it openly and thus forcing the others into using SW as well. This is the way I saw your proposal and it frightened me.
After all, I do not see the point of the programs at all - using a program turns an exciting game into administrative work and as for rating, how can one be happy about his/her rating, knowing that it is not his/her own achievement ?

Sumerian: Oh well, here they swing us around! Let's go to general chat boards! I think there, no one can complain!

should this be on one of the chess boards? so more important stuff to do with BK dont hide between big posts?

reza: I do not know whether you have followed the development process of Smirf, which has been first released as a very weak beta to participate at Ed Trice's GC event in November 2004, where it has reached place four of eight. Since that moment Smirf has been improved further step by step, actually being some hundreds of Elo stronger than then.

You should understand that I am not using Smirf here for to get a maximum BKR, but to experience some program properties. Thus the results are very different. E.g. when playing Janus Chess mostly very experimental variants of Smirf have been used, bearing the risk to be beaten, what has been done e.g. by Walter Montego several times. It also had been of interest to learn, whether Smirf would be recognized immediately as a playing engine or not. It seems to play more like a human being, and my opponents hardly were able to distinguish whether I or Smirf have been playing.

I think that the improvements and overall behaviour of Smirf might be of special interest to Ed Trice, especially within tough tournaments. There are only few other Gothic Chess enabled programs still under development. Smirf of course is of interest in the scene because it is able to play a lot of 10x8 and 8x8 different chess variants using ONE super small engine for all.

I am still searching for competent beta testers. If you might be interested, send me a message on your personal testing goals. Those testers will get an individual key to make the Smirf beta play without any restriction.

Purple: LOL purple! Thanks for the support. I have decided to never think on this subject again. Caissus is right. Since I cannot do anything about it, it is useless to fight against it.

Reza is a fine young man who was undefeated when he played me a checker game. Mid way through he inquired if I was using a program (very politely) and I assured him I was not. I was flattered he thought I was playing on that level. My very un-machine like ending where I turned sure victory into a draw convinced him. LOL. He is a very bright and promising young guy and I have nothing but good things to say about him. (not that he needs MY endorsement) LOL

Pafl: Pafl,I only have described the reality and the rationality.And this is not ridicolous if you consider the facts.
What is the character of the way of playing here for us all,for you too?

We move in a game and then we have 1-30 days or so to suspend this game and our presence here (perhaps to look anywhere.)
Why not play the game at once completely (live) within we say two hours of course without helps and without breaks? Why we need days or weeks for one move ? This all is contradictorily! We want all here play with breaks and then we must live with the "disadvantages",otherwise we would not play here.

With prohibitions we can not find a satisfying solution,or do you think you can keep away people from using programs?
If you allow it you can have a consensus. If you forbid it you will have many,many "cheaters" and you can do nothing against it.And for these people who want play "honestly" : Play "live" on a livechess server, where you must play your game at once and completely without breaks.

Well, since EdTrice is giving out the prize, there's no right left for me to say who should have taken part in the tourny and who shouldn't have. Yes. I am a serious young man who WAS a little bit upset with you. What matters now is that we understand eachother and I value your work on the Smirf engine. I have always said that what I say is ONLY my personal ideas and I neither have the will nor the right or the time to stand against anybody. All people especially those of hight intelligence are of great value to me and I admire anybody's work in its own field. It is sometimes the USE that bothers me. I really hope you have nothing upsetting in your heart from me and that you forgive me if I have bothered you by my posts. Sometimes early fights are stages of later friendships!

reza: No need to apologize - I think you are a serious young man, actually been upset by me using Smirf at times. But it would help to try to have an also serious talk on that matter instead of leaving a bad smell in a room just before closing the door.

Concerning the actual GC tournament I have been explicitly invited by its creator allowing me the use of SMIRF. May be it would be better to mention this fact below at the tournament details, but that is no place I myself would be able to write.

I never have participated in tournaments without asking its creator, whether I would be welcomed also using Smirf or not, and having that accepted.

I didn't compare you to a murderer. I just gave you an example!

if you get this idea that I'm comparing you to a murderer, while I really don't have this in mind, I appologize formally from you on this board, am willing to delete my post and never post anything in favour of you or against you.

reza: comparing me to a murderer?

Pafl: there is a big difference, if one is using a self written program, which is slightly comparable to the use of own game notations or entering those into a data base system, and the usage of a program created by others. The situation could be cleared by showing the existence of such an own engine. Thus SMIRF could be downloaded as a somehow shrinked beta from my website: http://www.chessbox.de/beta.html at Project Chronicle 2004-Dec-10.

In Farsi, we have a saying that says:

Everyone is good unless the opposite has been proved.

Here the word good doesn't mean anything Mr. Sumerian. I really say that. It's just a famous proverb in my language.

I think I can use that to say here on BK everyone is playing by themselves unless the fact that they're getting help is proved.

I never vanished your honesty Sumerian. But I think there's a proper place for honesty. To finish ALL my ideas about this matter, I just give you an example and will never again post a message on this subject:

One admits that he is killing people. He puts it on the local newspaper. Is his work O.K just because he is "honest" and is admitting it?

**** editted to correct the spellings of UNLESS and MATTER****

Caissus: Following from what you've said, the use of programs is no longer a matter of rules but one of honesty. We cannot tell whether a certain player uses computer assistance or not but the idea that everyone should use the programs is ridiculous, as it is the best way to kill all the fun the game brings. Rather, it would be honest and fair, if the players admitted that they use CA ... which is exactly what Sumerian does.

I have written a small 48K engine named SMIRF. Nobody would have noticed, because it plays very similar to a weak humans. I am astonished how much fear seems to be connected with this unfinished small beta of my first chess programming trial since 25 years. Smirf does not use table bases or huge opening libraries. And it has been created all by myself, not patchworking of any foreign sources. Thus there is no outside help or assistance. Smirf is the target into which I organize my experiences.

Analysing what has been written here, the root of this discusson is not that I am using a self written program, but that I have confessed frankly to that situation. I am very sure, that Smirf would not have been recognized as a program, if I would not have published that fact on my profile.

So, to what this discussion would lead us? It will fight against the reasons of this quarrel, and that is, that poeple have been honest. Therefore think it over, what you might earn from that discussion: simply a vanishing of honesty.

Good luck, Oldhamgirl.