Czuch: And their are many organisations and charities helping them get to live a decent life. From schools and medicine to agriculture, fresh water wells and irrigation.

.... It's Red Nose day again soon over here.

Czuch: But you already have.. It's called the aftermath of GWII.

Czuch: Are you sure? And are you sure these 'million' are those you'd want living in your country?

If people are fully informed of all the in and outs of your governments, and of the danger from gun crime that your country suffers from, that they might not get decent health care, get bombarded with more diabolical advertising. And possibly picked on because of their colour and religion!!

Sure it will take ten minutes

Czuch: You use to be.. but your country's reputation has gotten tarnished. Many people have suffered as a result of certain depts of your 'government'... And many people have witnessed it.

The Usurper: Oh well, anyways.. he learns two bits of info

With intelligence one can grasp data, but the interpretation of such..... Computers can understand data, but they can't think and thinking has many parts to it.

The Usurper: Yep,,, Intelligence is nothing without it.

Bwild: They say King Solomon and others who he collected writings of.

"Legislative branch

The 11th National Assembly (Quoc Hoi) has 498 members. The 12th National Assembly, to be inaugurated in July 2007, consists of 493 members. The National Assembly is elected for five year terms. Dr. Nguyễn Phú Trọng is Chairman of the National Assembly. Vietnam is a single-party state. This means that only one political party, the Communist Party of Vietnam is legally allowed to hold effective power. At the last elections, 20 May 2007, only the Vietnamese Fatherland Front, a front of the Communist Party of Vietnam, mass organizations and affiliated, and some non-partisans were allowed to participate. One member was self-nominated and does not belong to the VVF. Forty-three seats were won by non-party candidates. The president is elected for a five year term by the parliament."

Czuch: Um the government is communist now, just they have recognised that economic development is more important.

Bwild: It's in the Old testament, Proverbs 8.... which happens to be mainly about wisdom, as is the rest of proverbs.

The Usurper: Wisdom... the first thing created by God.. as per proverbs.

22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [b] , [c]
before his deeds of old. 23 I was appointed [d] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;

25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

32 "Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway.

35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.

36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death."

The Usurper: That would mean some groking, and that unfortunately leads to certain 'side effects' as stated in ecclesiates (sp)

The Usurper: It's just a matter of studying history and remembering it. Kings, politicians, religious leaders, revolutionaries... they've all used it.

eg The Dark Ages.

The Usurper: Aye, the tools of our leaders. Throughout history it's all been the same.

Czuch: No you lost Vietnam, those who took over made it prosperous, as for Cambodia... you are missing the point... Chinese!!!!!!! If the war had spread then direct Chinese involvement was going to happen I recon. That would have led to a war no one could win.

Czuch: I didn't I just expected Bush (and those 'guiding' him) to be truthful as much as possible. Not make up stories of weapons bunkers that were so vague. You could tell from interviews with officials like Ms Rice that something was up.

No Pres can perform miracles. But they can at least show intelligence and wisdom and not be pushed and pulled by interested parties.

The Usurper: 4 days before.... Mmmmmmm. That's like they kinda knew something was about to happen.

Czuch: The only way to have one the Vietnam war would have to taken on the suppliers of arms to the North Vietnamese. Not really a good idea. The US thought they could win it in the jungle.. .. no way, it was impossible. Even if they had taken out the main armies, there would have been a guerilla war after that would have killed and killed and killed.

The Usurper: No Pres could make the markets recover just like that, they are two screwed at the mo and short on cash thanks to bad debts, no money to lend, reduced sales and alot of people worrying more about losing their homes, jobs, etc.

There is a lack of trust in the USA economy and those who were supposed to be .... wise in the matters of money. Until that is restored.... ....

Czuch: Ever heard of the plans to use a bio-engineered fungicide on the USA to kill poppy and cannabis plants. It was supposed to only affect these two plants. It was to be used in Florida and got approved, but the courts reversed the decision as they were unsure that the fungicide (Fusarium oxysporum) would remain stable and not mutate and start attacking all plants.

The Columbian Government earlier vetoed plans by the USA to test a similar fungicide on the same grounds.

Czuch: Not at the moment. Too soon. It is gonna take time to correct what has gone wrong, and if anyone thinks an instant upturn is going to happen because of a new Pres (it wouldn't have mattered if McCain got elected the same situation would still be happening) they are then thinking that the Pres is God and can perform miracles and wipe out all the debt, fraud, etc just with a wave of a wand... better find the Pres a large deposit of gold.

Czuch: Nope, the downfall was already in process before he got elected and by the way things happened (fraud, etc) .. The financial market has not and will not recover for some time. It's pure economics, no-one has much confidence in the market at the mo... I wouldn't buy shares now, in case another big mess in the market comes to light (eg the $50 billion hedge fund fraud)

People over here have seen some shares tumble from £100 per share to £3 per share.

The Usurper: If they were that bad, then they must be planning some use for us. But from what I heard on that interview with the Canadian defence minister... I don't think they are 'bad'.

As to vampires.... I know the real story on that as in energy drainers, demonic possession... tricky, some may be just an unintegrated part of the person psyche (as told in Jewish lit), and in other cases it's not so simple. Possession is one of those subjects that can be tricky.

The Usurper: It's what she says....

"the second thing which is most interesting, is that the US occupation forces are very well aware that the police is infiltrated right to the core by the most criminal and sectarian elements of Iraqi society. Yet despite this obvious affiliation, it seems that the Americans want to turn the puppet security forces into some obedient patriotic Iraqi nationals. Which clearly is not the case.
I argue that the Americans want to very much keep the sectarian nature of the security forces and this shall be explained later on...

.....- which brings me to the fourth point -- the Americans are very well aware of this double bind. Namely on the one hand the Shiite sectarian nature of the forces they unleashed with their occupation and on the other the paving of the way for Iran's subtle and not so subtle influence and control over Iraqi affairs, politics and society...

- so my fifth point is a question that I and other Iraqis keep asking ourselves.
Could it be that the Americans have been so stupid and reckless in conducting this invasion and occupation or is that a continuous deliberate plan to tear the Iraqi fabric into sects and ethnicities, so that Iraq remains some mirage, a loose country with no identity and no weight in Middle Eastern and World politics ?"

Bernice: What I think you have a problem with is that the 'conspiracy's' and secrecy is so big and wide.

But as an example, us British kept secret the existence of our ability to break the enigma code used by the Germans to send commands and positions throughout quite a period of WWII.

To be sure, the Talmudic sources are clear that the life of a Jewish woman whose pregnancy endangers her takes precedence over that of her unborn when there is no way to preserve both lives. (That is why Agudath Israel, while we oppose Roe v. Wade's effective "abortion on demand," has not and would never favor a wholesale ban on abortion.) And, while the matter is not free from controversy, there are rabbinic opinions that allow abortion when the pregnancy seriously jeopardizes the mother's health. But those narrow exceptions do not translate into some unlimited "mother's right" to "make her own reproductive choices" - the position Hadassah enthusiastically trumpets.

Moreover, in the specific context of "intact dilation and extraction" - to use The Times' preferred nomenclature - Jewish law certainly confers no right to kill a live baby whose head, or most of whose body, has already emerged. Indeed, once birth has already occurred, Jewish law makes clear, the newborn child has no less right to live than does the mother. Stated simply, what the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act prohibits is, in the eyes of Jewish law, little if anything short of murder.

Nothing, of course, prevents a Jew, or Jewish organization or rabbi, from ignoring the teachings of the Jewish religious tradition.

But intellectual integrity, if nothing else, should prevent anyone from misrepresenting the content of a law, or what Jewish tradition has to say about killing an unborn child, or a born one.

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Partial_-_Birth_-Abortion-.asp

Iraq Body Count project

An independent UK/US group, the Iraq Body Count project (IBC), compiles reported Iraqi civilian deaths resulting from the invasion and occupation, including those caused directly by coalition military action, those caused directly by the Iraqi insurgency, and those resulting from excess crime (the Iraqi Body Count project claims that the Occupying Authority is responsible to prevent these deaths under international law). It shows a minimum of 89,369 and a maximum of 97,568 as of 27 November 2008.

This total represents deaths that have been published by at least two media organizations.[13] However, the IBC has been criticized for counting only a small percentage of the number of actual deaths because they only include deaths reported by respected media agencies.[73][87] IBC Director John Sloboda admits, "We've always said our work is an undercount, you can't possibly expect that a media-based analysis will get all the deaths."[88]

The Usurper: Yep... Ecclesiastes, the other is Nietzsche.

Czuch: Nope... it's a statement saying that only the parents have the ability to decide to have an abortion, and that it cannot be for silly reasons. Eg The mother's life is in danger in some way from the pregnancy, or like in some cases the mother develops cancer.. what then?

And you'll find that it is usually a joint decision in a relationship, but when it comes to a single person... ... I feel then things get complicated.

Artful Dodger: "biological fact"... yes biological, an animal is biological, plants are biological, all life .. well.. most.. is biological.

But we are more then just biological. Breath of life and what not, or have you forgotten soul and spirit?

"There is no energy rush. That is metaphysical mumbo jumbo."

I beg to differ and will do so till I discorporate.

Czuch: Beacuse it is the termination of a possible life to be without consent. The baby might die (as in the physical element) before birth. The life is...... ""potential human life" until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually"

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm#Abortion

http://www.jewfaq.org/birth.htm

"In Jewish law, although the human soul exists before birth, human life begins at birth, that is, at the time when the child is more than halfway emerged from the mother's body."

Which from experience seems to be true. Something happens at the moment of birth, it's like a rush of energy entering this world.

Czuch: Why not... It would be great for urban combat, great for hostage situations.

The lives saved alone in military op's involving urban combat in the form of our troops would be worth the investment alone.

Czuch: Not a bomb, more like a spray or airborne chemical that causes paralysis.

I did.

Czuch: Um you said that it'd be better to kill enemy troops rather then take them as POW's.

Sorry I wasn't quite precise, but technically it is supposed that you try if possible to take prisoners rather then kill everyone. One of the reason military bullets are jacketed.

Czuch: Not what the guy said or meant. You know.. like the CIA.. everything is ok for them, including drug and gun running, etc, etc.

Czuch: Um The Geneva convention which the USA signed and practised during WWII and even were part of courts to which Axis military, etc were held to account for killing POW's.... was wrong?

Czuch: A goverment within the government that the President has no control over, reports to no-one and by that is seemingly above the law is honesty?

Czuch: Some cases I think an army can go OTT to get the few. Eg... When the Russians used that gas to rescue hostages.

Surely after all this time instead of making things that kill, why hasn't a non-lethal (or as low as possible eg 99% safe) gas or chemical been developed for use in the field?

Czuch: According to a retired Canadian defence minister, your government is not run in many parts by your President. And has been this way for some while!!

Is that honest government?

Czuch: No, not always with a civilian killed in war, depends on the circumstances.

And as for abortion.... it depends on your views. I can accept that there are some reasons for abortion, but not always. As for it being murder... That depends on your view on when the unborn child becomes 'alive' as in 'alive' in soul and spirit. It's a tricky field as there are so many opinions.

Artful Dodger: They can't do everything, and like any org (or Gov) they get it wrong probably from time to time. We had a case here where several people involved in the welfare of children messed up and a baby died because of it.. Several heads rolled.

They say they fight for...

* Your First Amendment rights - freedom of speech, association and assembly; freedom of the press, and freedom of religion.
* Your right to equal protection under the law - protection against unlawful discrimination.
* Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.
* Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.

The ACLU also works to extend rights to segments of our population that have traditionally been denied their rights, including people of color; women; lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgender people; prisoners; and people with disabilities. .

**********

So sure they don't hold to some conservative values, but some values are based on tradition rather then being right. eg.. votes for women, segregation.

Czuch: Not murder, the government cannot legally murder someone. If you are talking that your country in some states has the death penalty.... Then that is state sanctioned execution.

To say the government of the USA can murder people is to say that the USA government is above the law... or the government within the government.

The Usurper: Reminds me of a certain passage...

9 What does the worker gain from his toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on men. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live. 13 That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him.

15 Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account. [a]

16 And I saw something else under the sun:
In the place of judgment—wickedness was there,
in the place of justice—wickedness was there.

17 I thought in my heart,
"God will bring to judgment
both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
a time for every deed."

18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [b] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal [c] goes down into the earth?"

****************************
And from a certain thinker..

Battle not with monsters
lest ye become a monster
and if you gaze into the abyss
the abyss gazes into you.

The Usurper: I guess, one would want to know about our make up, I guess the real shock is that there is aliens to those they abduct. Plus I imagine that in the past they were a little shaky on what to drug us with so we wouldn't remember. As you said, they ain't killing anyone.

Considering our early years in medicine, and how we use to treat those with mental health issues... and other problems or 'phobias' (to put it nicely)... and still do in some areas of the world... We can't really comment much. But yes we can... we kill, they don't.

Seemingly at the mo, it's more 1st encounters then anything else. I think they want us to lift the lid off all the secrecy, even though it might be quite a shock.

The Usurper: They have to be friendly, if they were not we'd be dead.

It speaks that a race in space has gotten over many of the infighting problems that young cultures such as us still experience.

Bernice: The UK government through it's military sanctioned the killing of IRA supporters and activists during the Northern Ireland war.

The British invented the concentration camp, during I believe the Boer war.

I find it interesting that in the past the USA considered waterboarding as a war crime and has prosecuted people (eg Yukio Asano, a Japanese officer from WWII).

In its 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State formally recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture in its examination of Tunisia's poor human rights record.

Today, the USA are supposed to have banned it's use by the military.... but no such rules cover the CIA!!!

Rather disgusting as you say.

The Usurper: Well if they have developed the tech for making anti-matter relatively cheaply... one bomb would do the job.

And when I say cheaply I say it because at our current level of tech it would bankrupt the USA to make one teaspoon full of the stuff.

The Usurper: Isn't it true that in certain cases that have gone up to court that when it has been shown sleep deprivation has been used to gain a 'confession' the case has been thrown out of court.

As for water boarding... "is a form of torture[1][2] consisting of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die."

I would have thought with all the drugs and lie detectors, etc to hand.. (maybe a psychic or two) that such old methods dating back to the Spanish Inquisition would no longer be needed or morally justifiable, especially as the effects of such torture can last years psychologically.

The effects (extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints)....... are ... well, if any gov thinks these are legal then they really need to look at how far in to the abyss they have fallen.

The Usurper: The CIA needs disbanding, I swear that they are half at least of the reasons many hate America. Their interference, underhand dirty deals and plain old interference with a country's and it's peoples right to find themselves.... examples are plentiful.

...government within government under no control is never a good idea.