http://www.aclu.org/intlhumanrights/gen/21236prs20051024.html

I forgot the link.

The Usurper:  I've never trusted the ACLU

Artful Dodger: You've been programmed not to by the corporate media. More importantly, the documents obtained speak for themselves.

The Usurper:  Not true. 

Artful Dodger: Perhaps not. But that's a side issue, is it not? The real issue here is, the U.S. tortured people to death on multiple occasions.

The Usurper:  If it's true.

Artful Dodger: It is true all right.

The Usurper:Well you haven't proven that yet.  It may or may not be true.  I don't have any solid facts other than your word.  I don't consider anything from the ACLU credible.  So another source and no far left radical Alex Jones stuff please. 

Artful Dodger: So you think the ACLU forged documents blaming the U.S. government of murder, then the AP sent this story, along with the forged documents as evidence, out on the wire....which every news media organization except 12 recognized as a forgery, therefore didn't report?

Are you kidding me? If that were true, the media would have a field exposing the forgery, especially the right wing media....and the ACLU would be prosecuted for slander.

The Usurper:I don't care what the ACLU says.  They are a group of radical nuts so whatever they have to say I shrug off.  They have many axes to grind.  I don't trust them.  So if the story is true or not, I don't  know.  And without all the facts, I can't make a judgment.  Frankly I prefer them dead to our guys. 

Artful Dodger: At least you admit you agree with torture and murder. I'm sure that makes you a Great American in Shaun Hannity's eyes.

The Usurper:"At least you admit you agree with torture and murder."

If I agreed with that, I'd say that.  Using your way of assuming things from what's not said, I can say that at least you admit you'd rather see our soldiers ambushed and killed and that you are in favor of protecting the enemy.  You prefer a dead American soldier over a terrorist.  Jane Fonda would be proud.

Artful Dodger: No sir, I don't prefer a dead American. I prefer we get those troops out so they will neither kill or be killed. I support the troops, as human beings, more than any gung-ho warmonger.

And the blame for atrocities committed by soldiers in "the line of duty" lies with those who give the orders....ultimately with the White House & Congress.

The Usurper:*** ultimately with the White House & Congress.***


are you serious?

are you saying that Pres gives the order to viciously torture and it goes on down the line to the private in the field......


sorry.......


C R A P

Bernice: I'm very serious. Wake up and learn that torture was authorized by the White House.

The Usurper: well I personally think it is a couple of "sickos" that do the damage and give the rest bad names....

Like someone that tortures animals - cats, dogs etc to death...they are sickos.

I find it extremely hard to believe that dozens of people would condole torture of any kind, let alone think they would pass on an ORDER? to do it?????

Bernice:Greg knows these things are true because he has bugged the White House. 

Bernice: It may be hard to believe, but it is true. The sickos were (and still are) in the White House. Those who carry out the torture are also sickos. How far civilization has sunk, I agree, is almost beyond belief.

As to AD's statement, "Greg knows these things are true because he has bugged the White House," the reason I know these things is that the memos, numerous memos, have been released which prove it to be the case.

Cheney said, shortly after 9/11, that we would now turn to "dark side," and he meant it. So he, along with others involved, ought to be tried, convicted, and hanged for their crimes against humanity.

Bernice: Google "white house authorization of torture" and see what you come up with.

Bernice: The UK government through it's military sanctioned the killing of IRA supporters and activists during the Northern Ireland war.

The British invented the concentration camp, during I believe the Boer war.

I find it interesting that in the past the USA considered waterboarding as a war crime and has prosecuted people (eg Yukio Asano, a Japanese officer from WWII).

In its 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State formally recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture in its examination of Tunisia's poor human rights record.

Today, the USA are supposed to have banned it's use by the military.... but no such rules cover the CIA!!!

Rather disgusting as you say.

The Usurper:I agree with the last post.  But I also sympathize with the difficulties of fighting an enemy that blends in.  You can't know who the enemy is.  I can't find any sympathy for people who want to rule the world and see us all forcibly converted to Islam or have our throats slit. 

Artful Dodger: I, too, sympathy with those on the battlefield. On both sides, frankly. Perhaps you think that is too big-hearted of me. But soldiers don't choose their wars. As for those who want to rule the world, I think it pretty well established that we are guilty of that.

The Usurper: I have no sympathy for the enemy.  NONE.

Artful Dodger: "I have no sympathy for the enemy. NONE."

So be more specific. Does that mean, if a man is captured, and then tortured until he dies, you have no sympathy for him? Do you think that is ok?

And are you convinced (apparently you are) that every man our troops captured and imprisoned, and tortured, is the "enemy"? In spite of vast evidence that people were just rounded up?

The Usurper: The enemy in general.  I have no sympathy for those that hate America and choose to do battle with the US.  I believe that for the most part, our troops act properly.  I also believe that for the most part, radical muslums are evil filthy murders.  All of them. 

Depending on your definition of torture, I don't approve of it.  Water boarding isn't torture.  Sleep deprivation isn't either.  Some things clearly are.  But hey, let's adopt their rules of engagement.  Let's treat them like they would treat us.  Whens the last time you complained on and on about the fact that the terrorists behead innocent civilians?  This is standard operating procedure.  When I think of the enemy, I have people like that in mind.  None of them deserve to live.  Why not just follow their rules with captures.  Just take a big knife and slice their heads off (while they are screaming and writhing in pain). 

Artful Dodger: "Why not just follow their rules with captures."

Because you can't do it without becoming the monster you are supposedly fighting against.

As to having no sympathy for those who hate America, some have good reasons to hate America, such as Iraqi civilians, 750,000 of whom we have murdered. They certainly have the right of self-defense against an aggressor nation.

The Usurper: The reason most of your hate america rhetoric doesn't get very far with me is that you never seem to talk about the horrors that go on with other countries or groups.  It's the USA blah blah blah.  You also pack your posts with emotional wording that qualifies as propaganda.  And you often resort to belittling comments (wake up). 

Since you are trying to convince people of your view, assuming as true that which you are trying to prove is a bit of question begging. 

All of your radical ideas basically come from the same core philosophy.  The many sites you list contain much of the same conspiratorial language.   And if people don't agree with you, they are told to wake up or something to that effect. 

I know it all ties in nice and neatly for you but you are all over the map with this stuff. 

Artful Dodger: "You also pack your posts with emotional wording that qualifies as propaganda."

What can I say? I can't deny it, I get emotional about these issues. :o)

A better word than "propaganda," though, might be "rhetoric." The first term means to indoctrinate by subterfuge, the second means to attempt to persuade by convincing argument (which might include emotional appeal).

The Usurper:  Using words like "murder" isn't simply rhetoric, it's propaganda.  How about instead of saying murder, just give the details and let people conclude from there?  

Artful Dodger: "Water boarding isn't torture. Sleep deprivation isn't either."

It certainly is. Try it sometime and see for yourself.

The Usurper:I've seen it.  It's a horrible experience but it CAN'T kill you.  It just scares the crap out of you.  I think they should water board a bunch of people who might know something about 911.  Sleep deprive them first.  Then blast them with Tiny Tim music for a few days.  Then water board them.  They'll talk.  911 mystery solved. 

And when someone complains that it's torture I say this:  Provide the information we seek now and we won't water board ya.  If you don't talk, get yer bathing suit. 

The Usurper: Isn't it true that in certain cases that have gone up to court that when it has been shown sleep deprivation has been used to gain a 'confession' the case has been thrown out of court.

As for water boarding... "is a form of torture[1][2] consisting of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die."

I would have thought with all the drugs and lie detectors, etc to hand.. (maybe a psychic or two) that such old methods dating back to the Spanish Inquisition would no longer be needed or morally justifiable, especially as the effects of such torture can last years psychologically.

The effects (extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints)....... are ... well, if any gov thinks these are legal then they really need to look at how far in to the abyss they have fallen.

(V): The abyss they've fallen into is called The Bottomless Pit.

Of course no confession is valid if forced by these means. How could it be? Common sense tells us no confession gotten by these means can be trustworthy. And of course it has been against U.S. law since the founding of our Republic. Only under the Bush administration, and our fall into a bona fide dictatorship (for such we are), was such a thing even considered. A lot of people (the intelligent ones) are numb at the changes our country has undergone during the past 8 years.

The Usurper: Reminds me of a certain passage...

9 What does the worker gain from his toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on men. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live. 13 That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him.

15 Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account. [a]

16 And I saw something else under the sun:
In the place of judgment—wickedness was there,
in the place of justice—wickedness was there.

17 I thought in my heart,
"God will bring to judgment
both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
a time for every deed."

18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [b] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal [c] goes down into the earth?"

****************************
And from a certain thinker..

Battle not with monsters
lest ye become a monster
and if you gaze into the abyss
the abyss gazes into you.

(V): "Reminds me of a certain passage..."

Sounds like Ecclesiastes, correct? The other quote is profound also, but I don't know the author.

The Usurper: Yep... Ecclesiastes, the other is Nietzsche.

Artful Dodger: "Frankly I prefer them dead to our guys."

Sorry if I connected the dots on your statement. We are talking about murder and torture. You said you prefer them dead. But they died through torture. It simply follows that you support torture and murder. You certainly did not clarify your statement, to segregate it from the discussion at hand, which I find terribly irresponsible at best. You might have said, "Although I do not support murder and torture, otherwise I prefer our enemies dead."

Artful Dodger: They protect many rights, including those of Christians and other religious groups.

(V): "They protect many rights, including those of Christians and other religious groups."

Yes but they also do a lot of harm IMO. And many issues where they should be active, they are silent. They love liberal issues. Not so much conservative.

Artful Dodger: They can't do everything, and like any org (or Gov) they get it wrong probably from time to time. We had a case here where several people involved in the welfare of children messed up and a baby died because of it.. Several heads rolled.

They say they fight for...

* Your First Amendment rights - freedom of speech, association and assembly; freedom of the press, and freedom of religion.
* Your right to equal protection under the law - protection against unlawful discrimination.
* Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.
* Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.

The ACLU also works to extend rights to segments of our population that have traditionally been denied their rights, including people of color; women; lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgender people; prisoners; and people with disabilities. .

**********

So sure they don't hold to some conservative values, but some values are based on tradition rather then being right. eg.. votes for women, segregation.