Übergeek 바둑이: Well I guess it is fair to say that the USA's stealth tech is based on Nazi tech.

Pfizer agrees record fraud fine ...

£1.4 billion pounds... in related news, the drugs companies by blocking generic versions have cost EU healthcare providers £2.5 billion from 2000 - 2007

Fraud seems to be ripping off billions of dollars each year from the USA people through scams by healthcare companies.

And this is great by those who protect it, or just a thing that stays under the carpet?

Bernice: I didn't say it was carrying nukes, I said they were close.

And they did fly the stealthy fighter/bomber, and the guys who work for the USA stealth manufacturers built a replica to see it's radar image. It worked!! ...seeing as the USA captured an incomplete test plane and other material related... Amazing what you can build from wood!!

Übergeek 바둑이: That the USA and Russians had a race to get hold of many Nazi boffins as possible is old news really... anyway here it is. Perhaps due to London being bombed by V1 and V2 rockets. Hitler was close to his perfect weapon, a stealthy jet bomber carrying nukes. No allied plane had a hope in hell of intercepting it, not even the German jets were any threat to them.

We had generations of cosmetic research.... and they wondered why animal free products took off like a house on fire.

Both sides knew that if people thought in numbers their lovely war would flop.. Communists became bad guys and so with Capitalists. So they had to have their toys to show how big they are. The Russians won on that with the Tsar bomb. 57 megatons... Is there any real difference after 1 megaton??

Then there are useful offshoots, GPS, Radar, Asdic, body armour, the jet, etc, etc..

This is the real world and as a race.. we ain't ready to drop using war.. but there comes a point you shouldn't cross in the production of making deadly toys. WWII was supposed to have been fought against mad science and mad men who were willing to pervert the human intellect.

As to why.. too greedy and too busy fighting for research money, and too scared I'd feel about certain consequences of rocking the boat.. especially in the McCarthy era.

Übergeek 바둑이: science for science sake... I can't though say that most scientists don't give a damn, considering those who work to find cures and all. But.. I never understood those who developed the likes of biological weapons. What was the point? The nukes virtually would sterilise the Earth of intelligent life... did the boffins and their bosses want to make this a dead world?

I think though it was considered science could fix everything and as you said.. money talked.

Pedro Martínez: Everyone has the option of joining a private health scheme here if they want. The difference being is that the firms cover the whole country. So, there is more competition within the firms, and they can offer the same services throughout the UK.

Artful Dodger: *sigh* we've been over 'free' with Czuch. Yes someone pays in one way or another... VAT, Income Tax, etc, etc, etc.

TANSTAFL!!

Doctors.. nurses, etc cannot expect not to earn even if it is a vocation. Equipment.. etc, etc.

And I think the idea is everyone pays. Through VAT, Income Tax, Corporate Tax, Duties, etc, etc, etc..

Everyone pays in some form or another over here... isn't that fair?

Yet.. over here, with regards to private sector contractors, they have to make a bid, they have to show that they will do the job.

Daylight robbery is a crime here. Several big building contractor firms found out that when they rigged construction job prices.

Is this sensible?

Übergeek 바둑이: If that is so.. then the Hippocratic oath means nothing. Centuries upon centuries of medical research by those who strove to save life thrown away for a dollar!!

Artful Dodger: So.. ok, I thought you implied that certain people should not have healthcare as a right, I didn't think it was a matter of a certain nationality.

So, who are these people?

Artful Dodger: Barney?? He loves everyone!!

Besides.. he's in hiding after the Barney toy business... there is only so much a sane man can take.

Artful Dodger: But you are asking that people in your country don't?

... Thought part of the American revolution was to get rid of the class system??

Artful Dodger: So... who's to decide who lives and dies in your world of "not a right"??

Übergeek 바둑이: Johnson and Johnson.. I've worked for them.. doing the final finishing for them on titanium alloy hip and knee joints.

The stories of certain drugs being too expensive has been a hot subject in the UK. Life saving drugs that could save so many being over priced, economic use in the quantity to make the treatment viable becomes impossible.

... But profit can come in quantity sales at a lower price.. big profit. If ya sell 100 million units at a 50p profit and only 100K units at a £5 profit... well.

Ferris Bueller: A&E here is for those who have something wrong with them that cannot be dealt with by a GP. A&E is for emergencies. It is more cost effective to have 24/7 GP services, 24/7 medical advice and 24/7 home visit GP's.

Going to A&E for minor stuff is a waste of money and time. I heard that this is the way in America, but did not believe it, talk about jamming the bread or what!!

Czuch: Ya kidding me.... You are not serious on that are you??

Artful Dodger: Hang on.... the material 'freebies' are moot. We are talking healthcare. And regardless of even if their was maximum employment, thinking that is 100% of adults is a myth. This is an economic fact of the way things are.

And if you don't think healthcare is considered a morally right thing to have. Live without it then.

The main point of the Pirate party is copyright, and archaic ways of the law regarding form of such.

Why is it that the 'patent' system makes drugs so expensive? How much profit is acceptable regarding an item that saves lives? Why can't we be like China in respect to the main source of buying software is to download legal copies inclusive of manual and cover? It's cheaper and perhaps... the software companies will sell more.

.. It's also more ecological!!

And btw Lads and Lasses ... the one million is a made up figure, an extrapolated 'if'.

Übergeek 바둑이: And at the same time our leaders wine and dine. .... and so do the boards of health companies.

As well as change in the 'sue' laws, the laws over medicines needs to be changed. I know they have to research things, but currently new medicine prices can be daylight robbery. Maybe we should all vote for the Pirate Party.

Pedro Martínez: As in some bad apples in all the NHS trusts... yes. The Nursing and Midwifery Council say complaints are about 1 in every 500 nurses/midwifes. Most complaints seem to be about drug/alcohol abuse, and as such are a police matter, who tell the NMC of any convictions. But this could be said of any health service worldwide. Or in any service serving the public

I've seen video's of policemen from various countries assaulting civilians with for no reason. Bus drivers ignoring that an old person cannot move fast, not giving them the time to get on the bus despite that persons obvious effort to catch that bus.

The solution.. fire them.. prosecute if needed.

Snoopy: It would be a national disgrace if it was symptomatic of all the nurses in the UK... but it isn't.

In any organisation you will get a few bad apples, and the NHS is no exception. But those nurses who get done for what they have done, will be struck off... same as a doctor can be. They will be banned from being a nurse in the UK, and as much it will stand up in any application they do anywhere.

"why did you leave your last job.. I was sacked for being a bad uncaring nurse"

Artful Dodger: Your font is not as big as God's final message to the universe though.

Artful Dodger: It's an estimated figure by the paper. They have no actual figure of a million.

Helps sell da paper though

Snoopy: In any profession you get bad apples, cowboys and the like. It's not a national disgrace, just a small element that need sacking. Just like with trading standards dealing with rogue traders.

In a recent report, 9 out of 10 NHS patients found their treatment to be good or excellent.

The main complaint seemed to be a minority of nurses resulting in a 2% negative experience.

........ And them nurses now face being struck off.

Czuch: Well, as the EU pointed out... it's their fault... So does Art!!

Hopefully the new rules on stupid banking will stop this.

Pedro Martínez: Shhhh ...if I did that, it wouldn't be fair on others.

Czuch: No, not really. Never heard that such 'jobs' as midwifery and the like are vocations rather than just something to get paid for.

Plus I did a significant amount of reading and the RCM say Noooooooooooooo

And if you have not heard... beware of iphones and ipods.... there is a slight danger of them exploding or the screen shattering due to what is believed to be an overheating problem.

Apple are aware but will not comment on what, and the EU's dangerous product database has been updated.

Artful Dodger: And you say the banks have been running badly, as the car manufacturers and they should all go bankrupt. And all the small businesses, the home owners no facing losing their home.

Btw.. is it true or not (in some part or not) that in the USA after a certain time there are no GP's (night, etc) and you have to go to A&E?

And why is it.. (one thing we all agree on) that the tort system is so messed up and no one is sorting it.. or no 'urgent' activity by both parties. Bush and the Republicans could have sorted it, as could have the Democrats at the time.

Snoopy: Nothing to do with the NHS... it's policies again. A reform of government is needed as in most governments to stop people who realistically know nothing (as with private industry bosses setting company policy) making decisions. And now.. they are having to recruit that which has been known for many years...

... staff.

Cost cutting I've seen in essential areas can mess up any organisation. I've seen at least one org struggle to keep to it's promises (as in contractual obligation) due to not having enough staff and in due course damage their customer base.

At the same time, the increase in population through influxes into this country was not properly estimated (or not publicly) to save face... politics or a bad call??

Also, it seems not as many are going naturally into the midwife profession. Despite there being plenty of room for new midwives, the recruitment rate for new midwives is down (see RCM website) ...

Plus.... one minor point... there is no such thing as a scheduled birth, except in extreme situations. You cannot say "the average birth rate is". This policy (NHS Trust as per Maggie) of the NHS being a business has introduced models that (through logic) cannot work.

You know one thing... After WWII in the rebuild of Germany, the model for a company involved that representatives of the workforce were on the board as active partners in the running of the company. If a 'boss' had an idea that was silly, the workforce had a voice and active part in policy.

Over 'ere businesses rejected such a radical idea as being silly, didn't want the lads seeing them 'run' a business.

Like when a certain financial director got blackmailed over an 'event' to stop him spilling the beans on a certain chairman and the board.... such as tax fraud, backhanders, ignoring expert advice.

Czuch: Did you read it before you posted it And the daily mail is attacking the Labour party as such, as they are very much pro-Conservative.

But that's normal for them... very normal

The CIA needs .... I'm disgusted at what is reported... sick!!

Artful Dodger: What gets me is her abuse of medical advances, your "70%" drop in baby deaths is pretty much what has been happening woldwide with advances in medicine, it's not a purely 'American' thing and as much is a distortion.

Premature babies in the 70's had far less a chance to survive then they do now in any country. That is a fact.

Czuch: Sigh..... never mind. There was a point but you missed it.

Czuch: Again... I say, which type of socialism?

And if your private sector is so great.. why is there a crime called corporate manslaughter. Also.... why is it that your health industry is making huge profits at the expense of you the tax payers?

Efficiency can come in many forms and through many types of system.

And btw... looking and your countries declaration of independence... For the people, not for business to take the mickey and exploit your government.

Artful Dodger: The comparison on births was between USA and Canada. Have you a breakdown on there method of data collection rather then Europe.

And of the CIA World Factbook, produced for your government?

Artful Dodger: oooooo pantomine time....

Ohhhhh no they are not!!

Artful Dodger: You are stating your opinions are facts... back em up them. You ask me to do so.. so I can ask you the same

Artful Dodger: If the Canadian health system is so bad...

... why is the life expectancy longer in Canada, and the infant mortality rate lower then the USA?

Snoopy: Ooooop north poor relations.

.... incidents of stupidity I thought was a global thing, let alone a regional event.

Artful Dodger: Facts?? where are they?????

Prove my data wrong then rather then just keep calling people you don't like the views of "loon".

And seeing as you are no expert, what makes you right?

Czuch: How do you know it sucks so much Czuch.. where are the stats?

Ahhh there isn't any formal ones. Hmmmmmmm

And if private companies are refusing treatment if they think they can get away with it... well I see certain defenders of your current system going on about "death panels"... I guess the USA invented them??

gogul: I'm talking in terms of all the various groups and individuals.. Not just MP's. From the tax payers alliance to RNLI, to the rotary club, to the RSPCA, to the small groups, to the people who get laws changed by saying "this needs sorting".

No-one can control a whole population.. if you believe they can.. I'm sorry but that is a fantasy.

gogul: No. too many groups and individuals to orchestrate.

gogul: I never said opposition is completely non-parliamentary. It's a mix.

Bernice: Really... in what way.. can you be specific???

Bernice: No... the UK is not perfect. But, due to our openness and to some extent our ability to complain (Something you guys in Australia still carry on from your UK heritage) .. can make a big difference.

We are encouraged to give feedback.

... we can even get laws named after ourselves.

Artful Dodger: ... what facts? Please explain!! As for the MEP... his party do not support him on what he's saying about the NHS. All major parties here support the NHS, David Cameron says it transformed his son's life who was born with cerebral palsy and epilepsy.

Waiting lists... why is it every time some org sets up a clinic in the USA for those waiting for medical treatment, there is a very long queue? And even though the USA does not collect data on waiting times in it's country (which other countries do) from what is collected..

""In reality, both data and anecdotes show that the American people are already waiting as long or longer than patients living with universal health-care systems."

Paul Krugman - New York Times July 16, 2007........

[N]ot all medical delays are created equal. In Canada and Britain, delays are caused by doctors trying to devote limited medical resources to the most urgent cases. In the United States, they're often caused by insurance companies trying to save money.

This can lead to ordeals like the one recently described by Mark Kleiman, a professor at U.C.L.A., who nearly died of cancer because his insurer kept delaying approval for a necessary biopsy. ''It was only later,'' writes Mr. Kleiman on his blog, ''that I discovered why the insurance company was stalling; I had an option, which I didn't know I had, to avoid all the approvals by going to 'Tier II,' which would have meant higher co-payments.''

He adds, ''I don't know how many people my insurance company waited to death that year, but I'm certain the number wasn't zero.''

...... explain this please!!

Übergeek 바둑이: Th cost of healthcare in the USA is twice the GDP average of ours and other western countries. Yet, along with those who rely on Medicaid and the like, there are man, many millions with inadequate insurance.

Some reform to an more efficient system is needed, I think both camps in the USA agree with that, it's just a matter of how. And from what I've read the Pres is going to get a change in policy. Maybe not as much as he would like, but a step in the right direction.

The division and lack of even a countrywide insurance firm system (as in one that can be taken out by anyone in any state) is crazy. Bupa here is countrywide private insurance, which by the nature cuts costs and is more efficient.

All that admin in all those insurance companies!!!

Artful Dodger: Honest.. He's an MEP if you are talking about the guy I think you are. The leader of the conservative party has disowned him on this, seeing as his child's life quality owed so much to the NHS staff.

Yes.. It's a kinda unwritten rule in the UK that kids do come first, even before OAP's... though that is a point that depends on the circumstances. But in a life and death, it's considered kids always come first.. One has a life to live, one has lived. I thought being a pro lifer, you'd understand such a principle. A person with a young child is always given right of way in queues and the like. As the old saying goes.. it's kinda wrong for children to die before their parents.

The prostate problem is to lack of reporting, men over here have been kinda going in and having checks made... it's a delicate area. But with advertising campaigns, such figures will improve. Our NHS likes to educate us people over matters that through self awareness can be detected earlier.

Fraud was rampant through those who worked to rebuild Iraq, fraud is rampant in your business, how many billions are owed through storing dosh in offshore accounts?? Reckless... Madoff.

Lesson.. no system is perfect.

As to staff... here is the official 2005 figures based on a headcount.

Approximately 1.3 million people were employed in the NHS in England in
September 2005 on a headcount basis. This represents an increase of 34,300
since 2004 and an average increase of over 38,000 per year since 1997.
• There were 679,157 professionally qualified clinical staff in the NHS, including
122,345 doctors, 404,161 qualified nursing, midwifery & health visiting staff
(including practice nurses), 134,534 qualified scientific, therapeutic & technical
(ST&T) staff and 18,117 qualified ambulance staff.
• There were a further 376,219 staff in support to clinical staff. These were in
three key areas – 310,441 support to doctors & nursing staff, 55,715 scientific,
therapeutic & technical support staff and 10,063 ambulance support staff.
• There were also 220,387 staff involved in NHS infrastructure support. This
includes 105,565 staff in central functions, 75,431 staff in hotel, property &
estates and 39,391 managers and senior managers.
• There were 89,190 GP practice staff, excluding practice nurses.

.. ain't you learned to double check your data first yet?

http://www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/publications/nhsstaff/NHSStaffNHSLeaflet240406_PDF.pdf


It's a 4 page PDF document with a staffing breakdown.