Übergeek 바둑이: " We get back to the original question: Does good and evil come only from God? What if God does not exist?"

I'm actually not saying this. I'm saying that if objective truths actually exist, there has to be an explanation for those truths beyond our human experience. Since if those truths actually exist as a part of reality, then the explanation for those truths must also exist beyond or outside human experience. An Objective Truth Giver then must necessarily exist.

"And belief in God is not subjective? If anything, religion is the ultimate subjectivity."

I don't believe it is entirely subjective. We can look at objective evidence and infer God from many things. If that is not possible, then how can science claim not to be subjective when it too requires a look at objective evidence in which (a subjective) inferences are then made.

"I believe in a being that I can never prove exists."

You can't "prove" anything in science really can you. Aren't all scientific claims really just the current accepted theories? Right now, Einstein's theory is being challenged. What science does is offer evidence for a idea (hypothesis) and then test that hypothesis over and over. It's hypothetical and will always remain so. It may be accepted as fact but in science, we know that "facts" often change.

" I call my belief faith and that is the belief in something that has no concrete, scientific proof.""

What's interesting to me about scientific "proof" is that science rejects that which cannot be tested empirically. Yet, even the rule that things must be tested empirically cannot itself be tested. It fails its own test.

Science makes up the rules for what's acceptable as "evidence" and then refuses to listen to any voice that doesn't "play by their rules." The game is rigged.

"The atheists makes his argument from the opposite poit: "I believe that God does not exists. Nobody can prove God's existence. I cannot prove God's nonexistence. However, all concrete and scientific evidence before leads me to believe that God does not exist. My concept of good and evil exists outside of religious arguments.""

What's so peculiar about this last statement is as a Christian I could (and have) just as easily say, "However, all concrete and scientific evidence before me leads me to believe that a God does exist." Not only do I say this and believe it, but so do MANY scientists, past and present, echo this same sentiment. What separates the scientific skeptic and the scientific believer?

I have a great book, I'll look up the title later, where the author argues the existence of God based on mathematical truths. I don't understand the book fully but that is a topic that deserves exploration. I'm not doing the premise of the book justice so I'll dig it up and you can read some reviews etc if that interests you.

Not being a huge fan of the deeper math concepts (because it's not a skill I possess) I still know enough to be fascinated with just how precise math can work and solve deep mysteries. I don't for a minute think we as a human species invented math but only that we developed a language (mathematical equations) to understand what already existed.

Music is must the same. How 7 basic notes in a scale together with sharps and flats can produce harmonies, mood, and a seemingly endless number of different songs (millions). We didn't invent music either. We developed a language where we can manipulate what's already there.

What's most interesting to me is how chords are ALL constructed in thirds. There are other rules of course, but just understanding that rule, I can construct any chord in any key using either my guitar or piano. I don't need a chord chart and I can play all available variations of that chord. One simple rule and I can play all chords in existence. (or at least figure them out). That's order. Where did that order come from? It's not invented. Musical notes are not an invention but a discovery.

nuff of that....