Looks like the staff there deleted some of the posts. If you have any questions you can always ask the people who run CowPlay.

For those interested

http://www.gothicchess.org/auction.html

Since Pedro Martinez has changed his post so radically, I will do everyone a big favor by not renewing the license.

And I guess Pedro does not want me to send him any more Pond bets anymore, so I will stop doing that as well.

Now stop lying Ed. I changed my post for a typo and as you can see, 25 seconds after the original post. What radical change could I make in 25 seconds?

You stopped sending me your bets several rounds ago. I don't know why, I never told you anything about not wanting you to do that.

Oh yeah, better delete all your posts.

Pedro Martínez: He didn't delete them this time. I've banned and hid him. I'm not going to let what happened the last time he started this stuff happen again. He said he would leave this site, and that hasn't happened. He said he would never post to this board as long as I remained moderator, and as you can see he is posting here. He has repeatedly deleted or altered his posts in such a way that it makes a mishmash of other people's posts that had replied and even has the gall to say that you did it to your post just now! And let us not forget the rumors and innuendo started with accussation of Stevie sending it back on January 23rd. I don't like that being done, and I am in a position to do something about it. Fencer doesn't appear happy with Ed either and I don't want to be in middle of them when it comes to a head. The patent business has never been resolved to my satisfaction and that's just the way it is. I did go to Ed's posts on the Chess Variant's page and he was very even handed and informative in his recent posts there. Why he carries on the way he does here is beyond me. As for your Pond bets, made or not made through his advice, it seems like we should be talking about that on the "Run Around the Pond" discussion board. I did like the conversation there about it, unfortunately the moderators there tired of it and it forced a group Pond players to split off and form their own fellowship to have different moderators and culture of posting. Which is what Ed did in this discussion board too. I wonder why he came back here? Perhaps his fellowships aren't working out as he planned?
In any case, that's how it is right now, and I'll wait for awhile to see what happens next. The way this sites' boards and oversight is done now has changed from when I become moderator here, plus March is only a few weeks away and I have the feeling that things will be lots different here when April rolls around.

I am unhiding Ed with this modification, but the ban will stand. Let his posts speak for themselves. Least ways, those that remain.

Hmm, again the same situation. It's very dissapointing to see all these meaningless conversations again...........

The important is to KEEP GOTHIC CHESS AND ED TRICE HERE at BRAINKING! Gothic Chess is one of my favourite games here and i'm not the only one, and i will not be simply unhappy if it will be removed from here, but i will lose much of my interest for Brainking............Gothic Chess is popular here and i don't understand the reasons people have suggesting to remove it. You put ideas of Fencer head and make the situation even more difficult.

And why do you care about the patent????? You just have to enjoy G.C but no. You will never satisfy! And what if Ed and G.C leave? What thing you will have for fighting.........? I'm sure you will find something..............

I'm sure Fencer will do the obvious........He is clever and he is not influenced by your voices........

I am becoming a Gothic chess fan too! Also Janus. I am trying to organize a Gothic chess tournament at my school. Do I need Ed's permission for that?

Chessmaster1000:I agree CM, but it is only Edtrice`s matter to let us play in peace and to be quiet about his patent,which makes trouble at this site incessently.We only want play our games in peace and you should perhaps write your complains to someone other.If this is not possible we should play perhaps better a variant,which lets one or two pawns unprotected,but we can play without trouble,"Aberg-variation" or "CRC" for example.

Caissus: In my opinion (after some research) nobody has to take care about this patent.

All international PCT patents (which Edward. A. Trice claims to have) can be found here:
http://www.wipo.int/ipdl/en/
and here:
http://register.epoline.org/espacenet/ep/en/srch-reg.htm

If somebody finds that the patent was awarded to Trice there, I will pay a life-time maharajah membership for him.

to Pedro Martínez:

As far as I know it is an US patent #6,481,716 from Nov. 19th, 2002.

Sumerian: I know that also. What is the number of his international patent?

Pedro Martínez: Caissus showed me this - http://register.epoline.org/espacenet/regviewer?AP=EP20020250929&PN=&CY=ep&LG=en&DB=REG - thats interesting. but what does it mean??

chessmec: That says that Trice's application for an int. patent is deemed to be withdrawn.

Pedro Martínez: Ok. Then this "patent" is such as a loo paper? ;-)

chessmec: interesting. I wonder why he withdrew the application.

What about a change in rules: you can't castle queen side if b1/b8 is under attack
A new game or it's under patent also?

Trice told me he would investigate why is the application considered withdrawn. I asked him to give me any other evidence that proves the existence of his patent, he sent me a reply with about hundred of words but it was mostly about how much money he makes per day and his contracts with Hasbro and what everything he can do with this site. No evidence whatsoever.

fariborz2: it's a new game if it has different rules and is represented as a different game under a different name. That's how other games were circumvented on this site.

In all fairness, though, Ed Trice's $1 royalty is not too much to ask.

fariborz2: I consider this as a GREAT idea, fariborz2. It would definitely exclude such game (it's name would have to be different from gothic chess, of course), from the patent, if exists.

redsales: Damn, what is this for a *hit? A game can be patented? And its not a new game, 10x8 board is well known, figures (in another position) too. so what? i considering this patent as loo paper, nothing else.
ed trice can protect his program of course. but not "his" game ....

chessmec: I'm afraid he can.

I should have the right too choose a name for that

chessmec: Well, according to the US Patent Office, Ed Trice was the first one to place the pieces on that board in that configuration and call it Gothic Chess. I'm sure that the configuration must've been stumbled upon by someone else before, but Trice was the first to claim the patent and the name. Not only that, he formed the federation, world computer championships, etc. I know how you feel. I'm very ambivalent about the whole thing.

Pedro Martínez: you mean to protect this gothic chess rules? LOL! Really?

redsales: Ed was great to make GC popular and he is developing a great program (in which i am not interested because i just want to play)
and it is eds right to make money with it. but if he tries it in such a way he will not help to popularize GC.
and maybe ed shoud think about it: europe is not the usa

chessmec: Really, if you lived in the US and made a 10x8 board and the gothic chess pieces of wood and sold it to your grandmother for ten bucks, telling her how to play it, you would be in breach with the patent.

I disagree. I think it's too much when you consider all the strings attached to it.

Someday I'll understand the patent business or this will be resolved in a way that I understand. I still do not see how a game that is over one hundred years old can be patented. Changing the starting places of three pieces and leaving all the rules the same is certainly no new game as far as I can see. It be like switching the Knights and Bishops in regular Chess and patenting that version of Chess.

If you're right redsales about just changing the rules or renaming the game, Fencer could just start all games as Bird's Chess and then have forced moves similar to how some Checker tournaments are done until the set looks like Gothic Chess and then allow the players to move as they wish. I believe I posted something like this idea a few months back. Depending on where the Chancellor/Marshall and Archbishop/Cardinal are initially set up in Bird's Chess you could arrive at the Gothic Chess set up in five to seven moves if I remember right. IF the players wanted to play the original Bird's Chess they could just start the game without the inforced moves.

Pedro Martínez: yes in the usa. but the usa is a strange country. in europe there is another way, not such silly, all commercial ...
but sometimes i think the majority of us-americans is thumb ... :-(

Application withdrawn or deemed to be withdrawn
Communication, that the application is deemed to be withdrawn
date dispatch/legal effect date 26-06-2003/05-03-2003 [2003/49]
Reason A.94(3)

Does anyone know what reason A.94(3) is? I also searched through the event history link and found a lot of deletions and expiration messages. It would appear that the application was denied or withdrawn in 2003.

Article 94 of the European Patent Convention:

"1) The European Patent Office shall examine, on written request, whether a European patent application and the invention to which it relates meet the requirements of this Convention.



(2)63 A request for examination may be filed by the applicant up to the end of six months after the date on which the European Patent Bulletin mentions the publication of the European search report. The request shall not be deemed to be filed until after the examination fee has been paid. The request may not be withdrawn.



(3) If no request for examination has been filed by the end of the period referred to in paragraph 2, the application shall be deemed to be withdrawn"

Pedro Martínez: What does all that mean? Is there no patent for Gothic Chess in Europe? Is it because fees weren't paid, or because it was denied? Or some other reason? Does that mean a European company can market the game in Europe without paying licensing fees to Ed?

Walter Montego: I feel that if you went to Geneva now and applied for an international patent for Gothic Chess today, you should be successful. There are no signs whatsoever there would be any patent in force for the EU region for Gothic Chess.

I think Trice either didn't apply for the examination of his application according to A.94(2) EPC or he didn't pay the fee connected with it.

Trice though claims he has been awarded the patent. There are two possibilities now:

1. Edward A. Trice lies.
2. Both WIPO and EPO on-line registers that are updated every day are wrong and they do not include Trice's patent, which was, in fact, awarded.

There is only one way out of this: Trice has to show some evidence that his patent exists.

Pedro Martínez: Fair enough. Since I've banned him from this discussion board, he'll have to use the private message system to get the information to one of us, or the someone that's been tipping him off from his fellowships about the carrying-ons of this board can get the information from him and post it here.

I think your option 1) makes the most sense. If option 2) was the case, he'd surely whip it out for Fencer to see and back up his claims upon this site.
There might be another explanation to fit this scenario too, so I shall just wait until I see for myself whom to believe. If it is your option 2) or another explanation I would like you to modify your post and make mention of the fact that you are wrong about option 1).

Walter Montego: Note that I'm not saying that Ed lies. I see only these two options, nothing else. He either has the patent or doesn't have the patent. Either the registers are wrong or Trice lies. No third way.

Trice PMed me last night that he would send the respective documents to Fencer if Fencer asked him to do so. That's the situation how it is now. I know how uncomfortable the correspondence with Ed Trice is for Filip so let's wait how everything is going to end up.

If we look at the original INPADOC application listing you can check the legal status and you will find that the code give is PRS 18. The text of such code gives different reasons and we cannot keep guessing. Mr. Trice and his legal representative in Europe are the only ones who know. The point in this is that the European patent has not yet been awarded.

The patent in the USA is available at the United States Patent and Trade Mark Office. That patent's legal status is "awarded" and it was reviewed by two examiners.

In fairness to Mr. Trice, regardless of how much some people dislike the fact that the patent exists, he is not the first person to patent a chess variant. The examiners of his patent in the US saw enough originality and merit to award the patent to him.

As I mentioned below, member states of the WTO are suppossed to respect the patents under the TRIPS agreement. There is also a Patent Law Treaty which seeks to harmonize patent law across members of the WTO that have agreed to the treaty.

Of course, all these international treaties and agreements are useless unless countries make specific provisions in their own laws to enforce patent rights given in others countries. This leaves many grey areas in the law because at this time enforcement is soft. For example, the Gothic chess patent is protected in the USA. Does that mean that it is protected outside the USA? What about a website that offers the game worldwide? Maybe the website breaks the law in the USA, but what about other countries? These are issues that only judges in courts of law can resolve.

I mention these laws and agreements because I really like this website and the last thing I want to see is Fencer get into trouble and having him spend his money in legal fees. He already suffers enough with players opening multiple Pawn accounts or players not getting enough Rook memberships.

Many of players enjoy Gothic chess and many players want to see the game stay here. However, for Fencer having to deal with all the bickering and arguing is tiring too. I suggest we let the matter rest. Mr. Trice has a patent in the USA and while the patent is there, it is for him to decide what he does with it. It is also for Fencer to decide what he keeps in Brain King.

If some people are sad to see Gothic chess go, remember that there is about 50 other games you can play, plus other variants that Fencer could introduce in the future.

One buck to stop the bickering - I'll pay it, send me the bill. As for Ed and Fencer; that is there private fight to own, not ours. I imagine that we are all here to play Gothic Chess and not to bicker about a patent (you could always go to cowplay to do that if it's up your alley).
I know Ed and Fencer have had their disputes and lots of things have happened behind close doors, however the game itself is a very appealing game. I personally have taken a strong interest in this game and have spent many hours studying it, you could say that it is my new hobby. To lose Gothic Chess hear I feel would be a poor choice on Fencer's part. I don't know what can be siad for Ed's behaviour because I'm not in a position to speak of it. If fencer finds something wrong regarding Ed's behaviour then perhaps discipline is order for the member - NOT THE GAME! This is my stand point on that and I will defend Gothic Chess to stay at this site. As for Ed, he can defend himself because he can speak to what he has said and what has been said behind close doors.
I'm not here to be a *hit disturber, I just feel that the game itself should not be on trial here.

I'm quite free and liberal with whatever anyone wants to say about any subject on this discussion board whether or not the post is on subject or topic, but please try and succeed in avoiding profanites in your posts. I won't ban or hide you for using cuss words unless it is continuous and flagrant, but I will send you a message when I notice it or am sent a message that you've used them, or I'll modify your post and put an asterisk to change the word without changing your post too much. I don't want to do that, nor do I feel I should need too. Hey, I can cuss and swear with the best of them, but I refrain from doing so. Say what you want, be nasty if you desire, but do not use any of the FCC prohibited swear words on this open to the public discussion board. *hit is one of them. You all probably know the other six. If in doubt, be creative and use a different phrase or word. Civility won't kill you, and believe it or not, nice words can be quite devastating at times.

Could someone please tell me the major differences between Janus and Gothic? I know about the different pieces and castling rules, but what is the general consensus as to which is a more exciting game? I know that a lot of GMs play Janus-Peter Leko being a Janus 4 time world champion. Do any GMs play Gothic? My personal opinion is that Gothic offers more exciting play from having the chancellor. Any comments anybody?

I posted at the Gothic board as well. Could someone please tell me the major differences between Janus and Gothic? I know about the different pieces and castling rules, but what is the general consensus as to which is a more exciting game? I know that a lot of GMs play Janus-Peter Leko being a Janus 4 time world champion. Do any GMs play Gothic? My personal opinion is that Gothic offers more exciting play from having the chancellor. Any comments anybody?

Is Leko known for exciting play?

ughaibu: he has excellent combinational vision.

redsales: (leko) - is he now gothic chess player or just wrong board?

mahavrilla: "Janus-Peter Leko being a Janus 4 time world champion"

Where have you found theses informations?

chessmec: Fencer is going to merge the boards soon, I was just getting a head start. They're not that different that Leko would be a novice in Goth, I imagine!

Isn't a R+N piece a big difference?

fariborz2: Chess is much more different from Janus than Janus is from Goth. And Leko is among the world's best in both. I don't think it would be hard for him to do well in Goth.

mahavrilla: I believe that tempered capablanca chess appears to have
a higher potential than janus ... but the majority of games here doesn't
reflect all the strategic options properly, coffeehouse style mainly. ~*~