Artful Dodger: Well, a soldier can always murder someone, just like any other person, but that does not constitute the military or the government....

(V): Is that honest government?

That is the way our government is divided, it shouldnt be much of a surprise to anyone, really? It helps it be a more honest government, and is one reason why such a large scale conspiracy like 9/11 could not have taken place

(V): No, not always with a civilian killed in war, depends on the circumstances.


well, except if the civilian is the specific target....

Artful Dodger: According to him, the only time the government is honest and above board is when they are talking about the catastrophic dangers of global warming

(V): Then that is state sanctioned execution.

Then so it is when a civilian is killed in a war too... and when an unborn child is aborted, right?

The Usurper: Explain to us ( the ignorant ones with our heads in the sand) how your theory about the government causing tragedies on purpose to gain control through fear and intimidation for some evil agenda against the good of the common people fits with the military targeting civilians for murder?

The Usurper: Okay, so get yourself elected and look into it for us?

Can you give me somewhere to find where the FBI says they have confiscated video that they do not want to release?

The Usurper: A coule of things that dont seem right just doesnt cut it, really.

For your version of 9/11 to work, it must work in all facets and in all and every instance..... The whole thing must be a government plan, and try all you like, but it just will never hold up to scrutiny... and I know that is all you ask for, more official scrutiny, and subpoenas etc.... but you can have all that until the cows come home, and it will never go where you want it to go

The Usurper: "murder" is legal and acceptable if it is sanctioned by the government, in the form of a law, but you have zero proof that the US military ever specifically targeted civilians in Iraq!

9/11... I dont think it is possible to conceive and plan and implement and cover up to the extent that would be needed to pull this off....

I have read many many things and watched many many videos on the subject, I just dont see it.

I look at a blurred video of a plane flying into the pentagon, and see a caption asking if it really looks like a plane, and how does a plane going so fast fly so close to the ground blah blah blah... well to me it does appear that it could be a plane, and yes it is not impossible for it to fly like that.... all your hopes lie in supposition that it could not have happened the way they say it happened, the way we all saw it happen, well I have at least the same on my side, there are just as many people, even more, who will tell me it could have happened just that way, as those who will tell me it is possible it did not happen this way, and yes, I can sleep just fine, and it bothers me as much that you are so paranoid that you cannot sleep as it bothers you that I am so blind that I can, get over it already, you have no proof that you are right, you have no proof that I am wrong....

The Usurper: Are you kidding me??? Really??? You have movies made by liberals that garner awards from other liberals who also make movies, and even a Nobel peace award from more self serving liberals, all pushing for liberal agendas, gets to the point where every school kid in America was forced to watch, and then be crammed down their throats as truth....


You got no problems with any of that crap????

The Usurper: haven't thoroughly studied it for myself.

why bother, it fits perfectly into your model.... create fear to promote or advance some agenda...

The Usurper: Scientists are genuinely divided on the issue, or appear to be so;

and with 9/11 its not evenly divided at all.. so that should not matter

The Usurper: But at any rate... global warming fits into your theory so neatly... how do you justify blaming the US government for 9/11 but you cant wrap your head around a global warming conspiracy?

The Usurper: You believe in the myth of American exceptionalism.

Maybe I need to update my spell check then, since it says it is not a word, or at least a correctly spelled word?

The Usurper: What about Al gores role in brainwashing?

The Usurper: You believe in the myth of American exceptionalism.


Well, first I want to find out why you seem to dismiss the problem solution blah blah when it comes to global warming??? You dont just neglect responding to any of my posts as of yet, but this topic seems to have slowed you down maybe?

Secondly, exceptionalism isnt really a word...but I know you will not pass on the opportunity to explain further what exactly the "tragic consequences" you speak about are?

(V): war is hell... no real excuses here, except that the VC (north Vietnamese) were in the habit of using civilians (much like the Palestinian terrorists do now) and we were losing troops when we thought we were dealing with women and children, and then turn our backs on them only to be ambushed..... makes one more paranoid, and thats what lead to problems here.... soldiers thinking they were dealing with a VC trap, and not interested in taking any chances with their own life...

just stop trying to mis characterize things, makes it sound like these soldiers were out to get their jollies, had nothing better to do than massacre innocents on purpose!

You will have better luck talking about Pol Pot and his soldiers at the killing fields, tossing babies in the air and letting them land on their bayonets, just for fun, and to save bullets!

(V): My point is, how can tax and spend be the best solution to our problems right now??? What if we had a situation where we tax at 100% and give all our earnings to the government for them to spread out for us... then what do you do when the economy collapses??? You cannot tax more than 100%?

So, here in the US, we have some wiggle room to increase taxes and try to spend our way out of things, but what about a country where they are already taxed up to 70%?

Czuch: I hate my schedule of not being on here at the right time of day anymore.....

So again, Usurper, with regards to the climate change crisis?????

Czuch: Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told an audience Friday "never waste a good crisis," and highlighted the opportunity of rebuilding economies in a greener, less energy-intensive way.


I think I am beginning to like these theories!!!

(V): Is the USA gonna fix all it's mistakes regarding oppressive governments?

Give us the time and support, and we will....

(V): The information used has been shown beyond a shadow of doubt as being false.

Something being proven as wrong in hind sight is a far cry from something known to be wrong and given anyway!!!

Saddam had every opportunity to show evidence that he had destroyed and stopped making the WMD that we know he had at one time, since he used them, he refused to give that evidence or proof, and we went on the best info we had at the time.... problem for him, he was used to the toothless UN, whoops!

(V): I guess my point was that.... well over here we are trying to tax and spend and regulate our way out of this mess right now (although my personal opinion is that this was merly part of a cycle and a needed correction, now being made worse by the efforts to stop it) But my question is, what do you do when you are a country that already taxes some as much as 70%? What do you do if you are already a tax and spend country? And how does a country like this end up with any problems in the first place?

The Usurper: Turning now to the question at hand (i.e., was the U.S. invasion of Iraq unprovoked? and the corollary questions, Was it unjust? and, Was it illegal?), my point is simply this: just as 2+2=4, so it is proven by documentary evidence that the invasion of Iraq was, in fact, both unprovoked & pre-planned before 9/11.


My problem with this statement, is that using the word "invasion" improperly characterizes what really happened. The word invasion connotes some sort of take over, IE a Hitleresque type of action .....

We went there to liberate an oppressed people, to free them from the reigns of oppression, to help bring them a future of hope and prosperity, one that they were unable to bring for themselves without outside help... time will ultimately bear this out.

The Usurper: Any American who has supported the unjust & unprovoked invasion of Iraq has therefore no cause for complaint if this unconscionable action comes back to bite them on their own soil.

I cant believe we are back here..... if I were as oppressed and hopeless as the common Iraqi was, I would not only welcome, but pray for what we did in Iraq to "come back to bite me" on my own soil!!!!!!!

The Usurper: The idea was to wage a war of attrition to break the spirit of the Iraqi resistance.

Yes, the so called Iraqi resistance were the left over Bathe(sp?) party and other saddam supporters.... indeed not the common Iraqi citizen.

The Usurper: Therefore, we started a war in the backyards of Iraqi citizens.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

The Usurper: Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;





That would include changing a capitalist country into a socialist one simply over a relatively transient economic downturn!!!!!

The Usurper: You don't support a free market (which is the definition of capitalism), but welfare to the rich. It is not intellectually honest to uphold the wonders of capitalism when combatting the socialist tendencies of the left, only to turn around and abandon or undermine capitalism while embracing the fascist tendencies of the right.

I havent said that I support corporate welfare, I have merely pointed out the hypocracy of liberals who complain so much about it, yet the lack of corporate welfare actually hurts the poorest people the most.

(V): Well it certainly didn't cause your country to fall into complete ruins.


Well, if your point is that a bit of socialism didnt totally ruin the US, well, maybe you are correct.... Now we are getting a dose even bigger than before, I think capitalism can get past this time as well, maybe in spite of it, maybe because it gaver us a boost we need... but I also believe that it wont be too long before we are capitalists using a bit of socialism once in awhile to get us through the hardest times, to becoming socialists


Let me ask you a question... this recession is affecting you guys as well as many other countries with socialized models, what do you do when things get rough????

Artful Dodger:

(V): There are many economists who believe that we would have come out of our depression faster had we done nothing at all.... that the new deal actually ended up making things worse......

I happen to think that is the case right now too

(V): The effects of the New Deal still remain a source of controversy and debate amongst economists and historians...

The consequences were predictably uneven. (See "Recession of 1937 and recovery," below). Whether the New Deal can be credited with the economy's eventual recovery, or blamed for impeding it––and which of its aspects were most effective––thus remains a complicated, and highly controversial, question.

The Usurper: Won't you be surprised when you figure out your Problem-Reaction-Solution scenario has real merit. :o)


hahahah.... what makes you think I will be surprised?


Now too... Al Gore et al are in cahoots to create a big scare over global climate changes, causing john q public fear and panic to the point that we will give up anything..., money, other luxuries, even our economies future, Then they can make tons of cash and power getting us to pay for new energy sources and paying carbon credits taxes and a whole bunch of stuff they havent even decided on yet!

Im starting to see the merit to this theory, especially with it now hitting us smack in the face in regards to the so called "global economic crisis"......

Obama is in cahoots with other government leaders to purposely create a global financial crisis, which will lead to a reaction of fear among the common people, enough to allow us to permit and approve the creation of one global new deal and more, to allow the creation of one global government.....

wE aRe alL dOoMEd......

The Usurper: Sorry, I had a late start and over 100 new posts to muddle through....

The Usurper: We know that Israeli secret service was tracking & monitoring the so-called 19 hijackers before 9/11.



You cant have things two ways from sunday, mr usurper!

Now Israel are tracking (according to you}"non existent" hijackers?

(V): So, because humans are not a logical being, it means we cannot have a logical government?

(V): But, you can even ask Usurper, there werent two rabbits to chase, Bush obviously knew that Bin Laden was a rouse, and did the right thing by not wasting time chasing a rouse... well we certainly loosed saddams grip all right, I would say

(V): If you (like I have) studied some statistics regarding error factors and such when it comes to the likes of polls, you'd know that the figures are not perfect.

I know that most of the problems with polls are the ambiguous questions.... "are you happy with the way Bush is running the country?"

Well, 90% could answer that one NO.... but the question does not lead us to any real conclusions as to why.... a liberal might answer no because they are against the war in Iraq, and a conservative might answer no because they think he is acting too much like a liberal. Most polls are more of a waste of time and only serve to cloud issues more than shed any light on things.

(V): As it is well known that an all out war in the middle east would cause great tribulation for the rest of the world.


Why would you be so adamant against trying to bring some stability and prosperity to Iraq then?

(V): How do you think when it comes to matters?

A combo of logic and instinct....

(V): I swear I get the felling that our leaders half the time brains are in respect to emotional


90% of liberal politics are based on emotions.....

Where the U.S. government usually consumes 21% of gross domestic product, this Obama budget spends 28% in 2009 and runs a deficit of $1.75 trillion, or 12.7% of GDP. That is four times the largest deficit of George W. Bush and twice as large a share of the economy as any deficit run since World War II.

Add that 28% of GDP spent by the U.S. government to the 12% spent by states, counties and cities, and government will consume 40% of the economy in 2009.

The Usurper: That is not true. Iran has no national policy of destroying Israel



Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called on Wednesday for world Muslims to join the Palestinian "resistance" against Israel

The Usurper: I'm not familiar with the details of the Port Arthur Massacre so have no opinion whether it constitutes an example of the Problem-Reaction-Solution model.



LMAO.... come on surp... go out on a limb on this one eh? If it walks like a duck, must be a duck right? Why bother with messy details anyway???? Go ahead and say it, and dont forget the part where Bush masterminded it as well

The Usurper: How does Katrina fit into you theory models?

Point is... it is entirely possible to have a problem that isnt created by my government as a rouse to take away my liberty...

The Usurper: The Problem-Reaction-Solution model postulates that we DO have unscrupulous government actors, even in Western democracies, who would like to reduce our freedoms and, if possible, move us into a dictatorship where their needs would be met at the expense of liberty for the people.

The best method for this, however, would be through subterfuge...i.e., get the people to choose less freedom in exchange for more security. This is where Problem-Reaction-Solution comes in as an effective means.




Yes! and the culprits have names as well..... Nancy and Harry and Bam and the whole liberal collectivism movement

Czuch: What about composting????