BrainKing - Diskusjonsforum (Backgammon)

thanks muchly.. I wasnt aware of that rule.. What a newbie!

24. mars 2007, 16:35:22

Modifisert av Family Man (24. mars 2007, 16:38:01)

I just had my first experience with the auto pass feature in a backgammon game. I was under the impression that it would be used only when there are no possible dice rolls that could create a move. But it seems that instead, the system makes a roll for us in our absence and checks to see if there are any possible moves, and if there are none, then our turn is passed?

So does the system always make a roll for the next move directly after a turn is played? So, for example, I can make a move and then go back into the game and see my opponents roll immediately after I play my turn?

I also thought that an auto passed game would remain on our screen to allow us to make another move, but instead, it just adds the game back to our list for another turn, which I do not like since we may not know right away this has happened and it will count against our time condition of the game.

I would like to offer a suggestion that we be able to make a default option to always "move and stay here if the next move is an auto pass".

24. mars 2007, 21:48:43

Gee, I didnt mean to create so much discussion

I guess I am the only one who is not completely satisfied with the auto pass configuration?

Anyway, I just made a move in an auto pass game where I put my opponent on the bar, and stayed at that game, and sure enough there was my opponents roll that showed he could not make a move and my new roll as well. But when I made the next move and submitted and stayed there all that was there were my dice from the previous roll and it was my opponents turn.

Is it a bug that even though the dice are already rolled I cannot see them? Or is there some reason they stay hidden from my view until my opponent comes on to look at them?

For some reason I think that if the dice are already rolled, they should also be displayed? Is there any advantage I am not seeing that would make it more fair for me not to see the roll before my opponent does?

also again, any comments on a default to stay at any game where our opponent has auto passed?

24. mars 2007, 22:40:04

Emne: Re:

Family Man: A guess is that you are the only one who is using "autopass"

24. mars 2007, 22:47:25

Emne: Re:

Andersp:

Me and you and at least one other person that I know of.

24. mars 2007, 22:50:07

Emne: Re:

Family Man: Nope..not me

24. mars 2007, 22:56:26

I'm using it

24. mars 2007, 23:15:35

I should use it too if it would work in every game

24. mars 2007, 23:33:09

Emne: Re:

Andersp: Is there even a way to know if we are playing with auto pass? there really needs to be some way to be informed that a move has been auto passed back to us, so that we may continue to play it if we choose to!

24. mars 2007, 23:36:41

Emne: Re:

Family Man: I have no idea, think you need to ask Fencer :) ..as i said im not using it.., its only confusing to not know if a game is with or without autopass, better not use it imo.

24. mars 2007, 23:41:24

Emne: Re:

Andersp: Well, I was under the impression that ideas and complaints etc about specific games belonged on that games own public board, but i dont think fencer has been to this one lately, and I dont want to spam every board looking for his attention.

It is a shame that you were one of the main instigators to get this auto pass option, but you were duped into thinking that it would be implemented they way you would like to see it implemented.

24. mars 2007, 23:44:04

Emne: Re:

Family Man: Fencers does look at this board when he is logged in.

24. mars 2007, 23:49:02

Emne: Re:

Family Man: Not much i can do, no use crying over spilled mik

Fencer has more important things to do now, he's busy fixing his sites layout :)

24. mars 2007, 23:55:15

Emne: Re:Is there even a way to know if we are playing with auto pass

Family Man: Yes there is, first of all if you WANTED to use auto-pass then u would go to your settings and select it ( bottom left hand side). If you are sent a invite for a backgammon varient, if u scroll down the invite u will see it reads, "This opponent has selected autopass.....continue if u agree", i presume if u dont agree you would uncheck the box.

24. mars 2007, 23:56:42

grenv

Emne: Re:

Family Man: Staying on the game until it's your opponents turn should probably be the default behaviour. However you'll soon get to it again, and when it's the only game left where it's your turn...

25. mars 2007, 00:06:33

Emne: Re:

Andersp: I would use autopass if one of my opponents would actually let me.

So far they don't (which means I won't move in their games until I'm about to time out; don't expect that 21-point cloning backgammon tournament to finish for the next couple of years...)

25. mars 2007, 00:07:43

Emne: Re:Is there even a way to know if we are playing with auto pass

Oceans Apart: I am using auto pass and know how to activate it, but I am playing backgammon in the stairs format, and you dont have any choice to lay or not.

I obviously dont mind paying with auto pass, but if you are playing through your game list and some of them are using auto pass and some are not, i think there has to be a better way than to examine every game before every move to remember if it is an auto pass game, or to have to play and stay here on every move to find out if a game has been auto passed back to you or not?

25. mars 2007, 00:11:33

Emne: Re:

grenv: LOL, at first I didnt know it was auto passed, and when the game came back after a couple of other moves, I was thinking that my opponent was online and making moves quite fast!

25. mars 2007, 00:11:58

Emne: Re:

AbigailII: Do u think that is being fair

25. mars 2007, 00:12:19

Emne: Re: I would use autopass if one of my opponents would actually let me.

AbigailII: Exactly...but why must i ask for my opponents approval to use it? ..makes ZERO sense to me

25. mars 2007, 03:55:40

pgt

Emne: Re:Is there even a way to know if we are playing with auto pass

Family Man: I don't see what the problem is. Whether it comes back straight away or drops to the bottom of your pile, it's still a game for you to play - and you turn comes around again a lot faster than it would if your opponent has been off line.

25. mars 2007, 03:57:08

pgt

Emne: Re: I would use autopass if one of my opponents would actually let me.

Andersp:

25. mars 2007, 10:23:48

joshi tm

Emne: Re: I would use autopass if one of my opponents would actually let me.

Andersp: Because Fencer was it that way. I don't know how many users use auto-pass, well at least I do.

25. mars 2007, 13:42:31

Emne: Because Fencer was it that way

joshi tm:

25. mars 2007, 14:14:22

Emne: Re:Is there even a way to know if we are playing with auto pass

pgt: Its not really a problem, its just that I have it in my head that I want to play my turn in auto pass games through until it is not my turn again, and I agree with grenv that it should be the default to have an auto passed move come straight back to you, thats all.

25. mars 2007, 18:18:18

playBunny

Emne: Re:Is there even a way to know if we are playing with auto pass

Family Man: I want to play my turn in auto pass games through until it is not my turn again

That's how it works at GoldToken and DailyGammon and it's a very natural way to play. I second the idea of being returned to the game if an auto-pass occurs but not as a where-to-go-after-moving option. It would be better as an independant setting alongside the main auto-pass one. http://brainking.com/en/Settings?p=3

25. mars 2007, 18:24:11

playBunny

Emne: Re:Is there even a way to know if we are playing with auto pass

Modifisert av playBunny (25. mars 2007, 18:24:49)

playBunny: Regarding how you know whether a game is played using auto-pass.. If it is then it's shown in the blurb with all the other match info.

I believe Fencer sets tournament games to auto-pass but others are a joint decision. This is fair enough, though frustrating if you want it and your opponent doesn't. The trial for auto-pass was hexkid's service and one of my opponents used it. That was good for a fast plaer like me as he was (still is, and will be for a long, long time, yaaaaawn) a tortoise, but then he switched it off saying that he preferred to see each move, including the blocked moves. I understand that but personally I'd prefer auto-pass to be automatic for everyone and for people to get used to it, which they would pretty quickly.

25. mars 2007, 18:29:49

playBunny

Emne: Re: Punish them all, I say

AbigailII: I would use autopass if one of my opponents would actually let me. So far they don't (which means I won't move in their games until I'm about to time out; don't expect that 21-point cloning backgammon tournament to finish for the next couple of years...)

When I was a kid, some boys knocked over some bins and wouldn't own up. As a reult the whole class got a slap across the hand with the Strap. Decades later I still hate the unfairness of that. I'm glad I don't play in your tournament.

25. mars 2007, 19:41:43

Emne: Re: Punish them all, I say

playBunny: I agree, i think it is very unfair.

25. mars 2007, 21:44:55

Very unfair if we cant use auto pass if we want too

25. mars 2007, 23:00:04

Emne: Re:

Andersp: yes, but also i think it is unfair that soembody isnt going to move in their games until the last minute because the other person isnt using autopass.

25. mars 2007, 23:07:52

Emne: Re:

Oceans Apart: I agree that it can be unfair to the other players in the tourney, some of them might use auto pass.

Ive told Fencer many times to forget the whole idea with autopass, the way he created it only causes confusion and unfairness.

26. mars 2007, 01:04:42

grenv

Emne: Re:

Andersp: Well that's silly, if it's not working it's because it's not implemented properly. Should be anyone who wants to use it can... whenever they want.

Please nobody suggest that it be abandoned, only fixed.

26. mars 2007, 01:09:33

Emne: Re:

grenv: It wont be fixed....Fencer has said that autopass can only be used in games where BOTH players agree to it.

= if you want to use autopass in a game but your opponent says "no thanks" then nobody can use it...sad but true.

So even if you change your settings to autopass you can not be sure that you can use it

26. mars 2007, 01:30:24

Emne: Re:

grenv: Problem is that Fencer doesn't think it's "broken" and needs fixing. Something has been implemented and is labelled 'autopass'. It just doesn't match what others think should be called 'autopass'.

A few weeks ago, a new gamesite opened. It doesn't have many games yet, and it won't implement backgammon (because it wants to implement games you don't find anywhere else), but it does have autopass/move. And you don't even get the option of performing mindless clicking. If you don't have a choice to make in a game, you don't have to click.

26. mars 2007, 03:07:52

grenv

Emne: Re:

Andersp: Once upon a time Fencer said he'd never implement auto-pass.
Now we have a half-way implementation (which is better than nothing since at worst you can't use it which is the same as before).
In the future with enough pressure from players it will be implemented properly.

26. mars 2007, 10:32:52

Emne: Re:

grenv: I agree with you, I am just not sure that the pressure from the players will be enough.

26. mars 2007, 10:36:55

Emne: Re:

AbigailII: So the only thing which is really unfair is the name of the feature (and maybe the promisses done). Now I 100% agree that "autoplay" would be the logical and useful sequel of "autopass".

26. mars 2007, 11:13:46

Emne: Re:

nabla: Whether that's the only "unfair" thing I cannot say. I leave that judgement to the person who paid for a black rook to get autopass. I would feel cheated if I were that person.

Note that autoplay has been half implemented for years already: if for instance in chess, you click on a piece that can only move to one square, the game automatically moves it to that square. And you don't even have the option to prevent your opponent to use this feature.

26. mars 2007, 11:45:59

Emne: Re:

AbigailII: I don't know exactly what was the promisses done, so it is difficult to speak. But you are probably right that the implicit meaning of "autopass will be implemented" should have been "you will be able to use it in all your games".
Excellent point about autoplay, I didn't think about it ! And actually, in some games like Ambiguous Chess, this feature is a real playing help. Sometimes I click on a square thinking that only one piece can go there, and then the system doesn't move it there, making me see that another piece could move there too (and that it would be very costly). We indeed have half an autopass and half an autoplay.

26. mars 2007, 14:06:39

Emne: Re: autopass feature

AlliumCepa: I agree with you, I love it too.

26. mars 2007, 14:06:40

Emne: Re:I would feel cheated if I were that person.

AbigailII: I suppose its me you refer too, yes i had a "deal" with Fencer "Add autopass and i buy 2 black rooks".

I kept my part of the deal and Fencer installed "autopass"

Cant say i feel 'cheated" since we never discussed any details but i had at least hoped to be able to use autopass in every game without asking for my opponents permission.

Thats whats unfair, the "no sayers" have a choice but we autopasslovers have no choice.

26. mars 2007, 14:07:31

Emne: Re:In the future with enough pressure from players it will be implemented properly.

grenv: Dont count on it

26. mars 2007, 14:28:09

Emne: Re:I would feel cheated if I were that person.

Andersp: In your opinion, what would make Fencer implement complete auto-pass and auto-play ? More black rook subscriptions ? Testimonies from users who say they went to play on DailyGammon only because it had those features ?
We know that we are right to ask for it, so there must be something working :-)

26. mars 2007, 16:05:38

Emne: Re:I would feel cheated if I were that person.

Modifisert av AbigailII (26. mars 2007, 21:15:11)

Andersp: Ah, yes, I thought it was you, but I wasn't sure and that's why I didn't mention a name.

Anyway, if I were to ever make an offer in the form "I'll buy a black rook (or two) if you implement this-and-this", I'm sure to write down an exact specification of the feature. ;-)

26. mars 2007, 21:04:47

Emne: Re:I would feel cheated if I were that person.

Modifisert av Andersp (26. mars 2007, 21:05:15)

nabla: I dont think anything would help, this seems to be the only "autopass" we can get

AbigailII: I guess i trusted Fencer to do a good job :)

26. mars 2007, 21:34:41

alanback

Emne: Amazing

I'm amazed that people can be so interested in a feature that will save time and trouble will waste so much of everyone's time arguing futilely about it. ;-)

26. mars 2007, 22:35:01

alanback

Emne: Anti-backgammon - checker strategy

Does anyone have any thoughts about checker play in anti-backgammon? Aside from the obvious -- fill your home with blots, hit the opponent as far from his home as possible, etc., I mean. For example, how should the mid-board be handled? I tend to focus entirely on my home board and my opponent's. However, as I play against better opposition, I see that they use the midboard quite effectively at times. I have seen players extend the blot-filling strategy to their own outer board to good effect. And what about the endgame? I believe that bearing off strategy is potentially even more important in the anti game than in the regular game. Any thoughts about that?

26. mars 2007, 23:57:25