Constellation36: In the game you reffer,if you take a look at move 14 there are 12 white checkers. I don't konw if it is just my miscount or not.Check this out yourself too...

Not bad, just got going on round 2..... ahahahahahah

is anyone needing another player for the up coming hyper team tournament?

This site hates me!
In 4 games i was ahead and in some way ahead in pips from my opponent in bearoff situations or in a pure race in the Fevga game and my opponent won by having big doubles(66,55,44) multiple times!
They would not win having one or two good doubles but they needed more. No problem! They are having easily 3 good doubles while me having most of the time 41, 32, 51 etc. Perfect!

I guess it's just a pure unlucky statistical noise for me with just 10 games played so far, but to play a lot better, close the board perfectly and then lose by pure luck is way annoying.

Thank god this statistical short-range tendency happens for a short time but in the long run luck is balanced and skill prevails.

Constellation36:
Really understand your feeling.

I count 6 in the top 10!

playBunny: Yep, most of the very high ratings are impossible without cheating given the ounce of luck in the game. That 3000 rating for example.

Perhaps we need to set up a team of "agents" to root out the cheats. :)

playBunny:  Given the luck factor, how does one "cheat" at the game? 

Artful Dodger: using multi-nics and "playing" yourself, is the most common, I suppose.

rod03801:  ahhhh, hadn't thought of that.   But you'd need a ton of nics to accomplish a high rating.  (just guessing as I really have no idea)

spirit_66: Really understand your feeling.

There is hope my friend. I just had my first 66 in a bearoff situation after 11 games!! Now i'm moving from extremely unlucky area to just very unlucky one.

Suffices to say that my opponent had at the same game in the bearoff 33 then 44 and then 55.

Artful Dodger: Given the luck factor, how does one "cheat" at the game?

Actually I wasn't quite accurate. One of the cheats isn't a rating cheat per se, he's just a player who uses a backgammon engine for his moves. Plays most of his games in private so he can't be checked. (One reason why I think that private moves shouldn't be an option)

The others, as Rod says, are true rating manipulators. There's a pattern of starting new players and winning to get the exorbitant starting rating that the BK formula awards. These then lose to other accounts. There are also mid-range accounts which play and win against other mid-range players to pump up their rating before losing to a top-rated player to boost them, then going back to leech off some more mid-rangers.

playBunny: If all these happen then why the site owner does not do something to clear his site from all these morons?

He isn't aware about this or he is but he just hasn't enough proof for taking action?

grenv: Perhaps we need to set up a team of "agents" to root out the cheats. :)

One of the players is someone who I pointed out to Fencer a long while ago. Filip took action against him but he's back to his games and now seems to be part of a team or interacting with them. Paully has done some cheat busting but has stopped playing and thus stopped detecting.

I think the most effective way to hinder these people is not to allow new accounts to go to 2600 on the first win. If players start at some lower value and work their way upwards through good play then there's no way for new accounts to be so easily misused.

Constellation36: Well, he has fixed some of these situations in the past. But yes, he wants significant proof when doing this.

Constellation36: If all these happen then why the site owner does not do something to clear his site from all these morons?


Without changing the rating system, and thus eliminating a core resource of the cheats, it does need someone to do the detective work. Fencer doesn't have the time to do that himself but he will act on a case by case basis if he's given evidence.

playBunny:
Yes as i see the rating system is a tragedy indeed. Among others it highly overestimates the starting games to establish an ELO.
If you have accidentally or not some good starting results, in the starting 4-6 games e.g then you get very high ratings that are hard to decrease too much and indicate your real ELO.
On the other hand if a good player has a bad start he has to suffer and wait many games in order to take his real place.

Also the way Chess variants' and Backgammon variants' ratings are handled should definitely not be the same as they are.

Some more problems are that this site unfortunately is full of players who try to be smart not to say smarta***
They take advantage of some games that favor one side and play always with that side and getting placed at the first places of the ratings.
E.g Horde Chess, Maharajah Chess and some others as i've seen. I wonder what's the meaning and the purpose of doing this? This ain't no fun!

And what about this Maharajah Chess game? This game is so one-sided that black wins hands down. What's the purpose of still having it? Even if white had 2 Maharajahs black would have a forced win again.

Some things are hard to understand to this site.

I think problem with rating in BG games is not so big. Most of the cheaters are pawns so they will disappear in one month w/o finished game. And if someone will earn high rating due to his skill and luck, than he wont be able to defend it in longer period. In BG it is not possible to win say 25 games in the row. And if yes, you are really good or lucky player and probably both. And every defeat will cut your BKR by HUGE ammount of points. Especially if it occur in your very games. But it does not mean I am accepting cheaters. I really hate people who play only side with advantage. I would appreciate rule, you must have at least 33% finished games with color with disadvantage. And if not, you will be expelled from ladder until you fullfil this condition.

I comunicated with Filip about cheater too, but my evidence wasnt sufficient.

lukulus: I think problem with rating in BG games is not so big. Most of the cheaters are pawns so they will disapper in one month w/o finished game.

The people in question have been doing this for months, for example, one of the cheat accounts was created back in November. Pedro Martinez posted about it http://web.brainking.com/en/Board?bc=26&plla=942630 but they are still here and their game has got bigger with more accounts involved.

They've even, it appears, brought in established players, AcunaMattata, who are doing themselves a disservice by associating with these accounts, whether wittingly or not.

lukulus:The main reason it's not so important is, well ... that it's about backgammon.  Not even money backgammon!  A game is a game is a game ...

To see the players "pmvaht" games is very interesting. Watch his opponent players and how they worked. Why does the player "pmvaht" start with such a high BKR??? I guess there's a lot of cheating around. That's why I decided not to prolonge my membership here.

lukulus: I think problem with rating in BG games is not so big. Most of the cheaters are pawns so they will disappear in one month w/o finished game.

Conversely, as long as they continue to play, their rating will persist. The rankings list will be spoiled for as long as this game amuses them. And it does amuse them; they have been at it for many, many months, as you would see if you cared to look.

And if someone will earn high rating due to his skill and luck, than he wont be able to defend it in longer period.

Of course he will. Having gained a high rating by cheating, do you think that honest play will ensue? Not at all. The cheating game continues.

alanback: The main reason it's not so important is, well ...

spirit_66: I guess there's a lot of cheating around. That's why I decided not to prolonge my membership here.

It is important, Alan, and it doesn't help for you to state otherwise as a fact simply because it's not important to you. Would you play at a backgammon club which had a reputation for cheating? If so, would you debase other's concerns by declaring it a non-issue?

playBunny: I agree completely. Even if it isn't important to people, it should still be stopped, if not JUST for the point of it.

Letting people get away with what is just WRONG, encourages it to continue.

I'll never understand what satisfaction they get from it. They feel good about themselves, even though they know they didn't earn it?

rod03801: I'll never understand what satisfaction they get from it. They feel good about themselves, even though they know they didn't earn it?

I think that their point is to reach the peek of rating scale no matter what.That's their only satisfaction and they will just do anything to get it...I'm not that kind of person,but there are players all over the internet who do so.I find no joy at all knowing that I cheated,but I guess they are so immature to understand that it's fun first and if you are worthy of getting to the top,then let it be...

Another thing about pmvaht is that his only opponents are 2 or 3 people. He is so naive and he can be easily busted.I would reccomend him to be permanently removed off the rating system,because it is easily proven he is cheating. If therefore he stops playing at this site,then let it be.I don't want cheaters here. Plus,has any of you tried to invite him for a game? I strongly believe he will either turn down the invitation, or even worse he will never accept it and not even bother to press the decline button,until the person inviting him gets tired of waiting and delete the invitation by himself...Just check it out and see if I'm wrong or right.
Cheers

nikos: Problem is you can ban the user, but the person behind it can always start another one.

playBunny:I play mostly for the enjoyment of testing my skills against other players and to some extent for social interaction.  There is an egoic rush associated with a high rating, but in my saner moments I don't value that.  Of course other people do value it, but that doesn't make it important.  Importance is not purely subjective; it is an absolute truth that games and their outcomes are not important.  The most they can do is feed the ego, which is like blowing up a balloon - a biodegradable balloon!

Now, if a site is going to have a rating system, there is a certain internal logic to protecting the integrity of that system.  However, it has been demonstrated so many times that the BKR system has no integrity for reasons that have nothing to do with cheating, that it's hard to get worked up about the latter even from the standpoint of ego.

alanback: Alan, those are fancy words but, if it's to be viewed from that perspective, it is an absolute truth that nothingis important, including, but not limited to, our quality of life and whether we live or die.

You mention ego and sanity. Although clearly insane back in 2006, you were thevertheless being much more human, if somewhat boastful, than when you take the lofty view! Backgammon (alanback, 2006-10-18 20:20:52)

And now you are out of the top 5 as a result of a handful of cheats. It's a good job that you no longer care about your position.

I think that even with a flawed rating system it is worth protecting the validity of the ranking charts. If people are put off playing because of that lack, especially if they're put off paying to play, then it's a loss. Of course changing the BKR to use the standard backgammon formula would help prevent the cheating and fix the rating formula problem in one go.

playBunny:Lucky for me that even at my advanced age I am still able to learn and grow :-)

alanback: Heh heh, fortunately that's as much a product of attitude as it is of the bodily resources. Keep it up, old timer, enlightenment is yours for the taking.

playBunny:And yours, dear friend

"GERRY": I guess I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Are you saying you signed up for a brains tournament which was using a double cube, but you did not know it used the double cube? If that is what you are trying to say, then when you go to sign up for a tournament - there is a long description of all the options of the tournament above the area where you sign up at - so all the details (time, autopass, cube, etc...) should all be listed.

If it is not listed - then I agree that it needs to be.

If it is listed and you just did not notice it - then I don't think it would be the fault of the person who used a "cube" against you.

Which brings up the second question.

if you were going to win a game, and they use the cube - then you should not have lost unless you declined it and gave up... otherwise you may not have been in the best position to actually win the game.

..... Again - maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say - and if so, sorry. If you could explain a little better I would be happy to try to help.

***** Added - which tournament/games - might help to look to help understand what you are trying to say.

"GERRY": lol. Are you using an online translation program"?

"GERRY": Again - sorry, but I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. All the post before yours were talking about ratings cheaters (people playing games & losing on purpose to raise their ratings)

You came along and (I THINK) was saying you got stuck in a double cube tournament and lost.

I took a quick look at your current games & recent played games, and could not find anything that used the double cube.

So if you are still having this issue - if you could include a link to the game and/or tournament, it might help me understand what the issue is.

coan.net: I can't even find a brains tournament using the cube... i was hoping to find one and can't :(

I guess it's just stock standard dementia then ;)

nabla: A perfect explanation of why cubed matches should be rated more than single games. There is another point. In a single game, a player is not concerned about losing a gammon. Thus, he may pile as many pieces as he can into your home squares, which makes winning quite difficult!!

tonyh: Why even bother to play without the cube? I don't.

tonyh: Well what this site needs is a Backgammon rating system in place - since the current rating system is based on Chess which is mostly a skill game - and does not work as well with games like Backgammon which does include some luck along with skill.

Of course that discussion has come up many times in the past, and Fencer had been a little interested, but not really enough to put it in place - but the hope that someday he will.

And remember - last time he did something to the rating system, the system looked back to game #1 and redid the ratings from the very start - so even though the rating system does not work too well now, my opinion is to not worry about it to much - and continue to play as well as you can - and you never know, Fencer might redo all the ratings with a better rating system and fix everything up to this point. (then again, maybe not - but we can hope.)

coan.net: Fencer might redo all the ratings with a better rating system and fix everything up to this point

That would be very interesting and I hope he does it that way. It would also be nice to have a preserved copy of the ranking tables just before the conversion. It would be fascinating to study how some players will have gone up in the rankings and others down because of the mix of match lengths and opponents that they play.

grenv: I agree with you; It's just that it takes that much longer to play a 3 point match than a single game - but it is better backgammon. I am reverting to cubed matches.

tonyh:There's a lot to be said for single point matches. It's an opportunity to practice pure checker play.  It can be a lot of fun, too, when you can take chances you would not take if gammons and cubes were in play.

In discussions of this subject, I find it useful to point out that cubeless games come up in a majority of matches even when the cube is in play.  For example, there is no cube in the Crawford game, and gammons are significant only against the leader.  Post-Crawford games are almost cubeless as well, since the cube is more or less automatic.  The clearest case is when the players are tied at 1-away:  there you are in a pure cubeless situation.

So you could say that you don't need to play one-pointers in order to have the opportunity to play cubeless; or you could say that one-pointers give you a chance to practice pure checker play, which will come in handy in those 1-away, 1-away situations.

As is so often the case, it's a matter of personal preference.

"Fencer might redo all the ratings with a better rating system and fix
everything up to this point. (then again, maybe not - but we can hope.)"
yes we can hope

To all player's that are in my backgammon 10 brain prize tournament If you get a doubling Cube move effect in any game report it here please.

Reporting a Cube move.

saeco:

Where is the switch dice option for Cloning Backgammon?

Key McKinnis: I have it in all mine. You must have had a situation where you couldn't switch dice because of not being able to use both dice if you did. (That's all I can think of)